Guys with L19s and composite head gaskets

[H@xtGSX]

cheaper compared to what??? IMO L19's and H11's are both outrageous for a set of bolts, but i guess it's paying not for a name but for the ability to hold the head down It sounds more like you have the ARP 2000's by the way you describe them and talk about price...can you elaboratre a little???

I'll be honest Glenn... I cheated. My cousin runs a Fastenal store here and was ordering a bunch of L19 hardware in various sizes for a company that has a fleet of high power diesels they drive out into the bushes for oilfield work. There isn't any performance parts suppliers here, so specialty hardware is often ordered through Fastenal by local businesses. The L19's are used for more than just holding engines together. I've seen them ordered for drilling rigs too, though I don't know what they use them on. Anyhow, when I saw how much she was paying for them on the purchase order, I asked her to tack my order on with it, and it was cheaper than paying for a new boxed set of the normal ARP's from a traditional vendor. The company they were being bought for doesn't buy anything but the best. They have so much money from oil profits right now, it wouldn't surprise me if the people running it all fart $100 bills. I just didn't bother looking into the physical attributes vs. the regular old ARP studs. No need to really, as I am not producing enough power right now to exceed even the stock head bolts clamping ability. It was just one of those purchases where I knew they were better than stock, so I bought them because the opportunity was there. All I knew before this was that they were high strength ARP's and I had seen them mentioned on here, and that when I torqued them down, they didn't give AT ALL... there was none of that progressive give you feel when you're doing the stockers final torque down. They just clamp down and stop, which when using a 20" 1/2 drive wrench isn't the norm, so I knew they were strong.

... and yes, even at the price I got them for, they are outrageously expensive for bolts. There's no way in hell I'd pay the retail price for them unless I had something like what you or Paul drives that actually REQUIRES them to prevent the head from lifting.

 

[sidewaystsi]

That sounds about like the torque spec using motor oil as a lube. Either way, I'm 100% sure 130ft/lbs is way too much torque for an 11mm or 12mm stud using moly lube. I'd question if the head casting can even handle that.

When we did 1/2" head studs torqued to 120 ft/lbs, my ass was puckered on the last round of torquing. I don't think I'd ever go any higher than that no matter the diameter or material.

I thought the same thing and actually said "130! holy shit!" over the phone to the service rep when he told me that.At any rate thats what i ran them in to and its been about 6-7 months with no ill side effects so far.

 

[turboglenn]

That's why i get so pissy about the price of L19's!! I know from all my fab work and tool and die experience that even if they were laser cut they wouldn't cost but about 2 bucks a bolt if I had them made myself and that's in a batch that small, the markup to 270 bucks a set (or 27 dollars a bolt) is rediculouse and they still use the same damn nuts the regular ARPs' use.

That's one of the main reasons almost everything on my car is "T.G. Ind." as far as name brand, because i can make the same or better fitting and working part for my car usually for an honest 1/3rd of what it takes to buy that same part.. now given a lot of my own time which to other people would be billed out as labor isn't counbted in that figure (but doing something you enjoy, why would it matter anyway)

And the funny thing is i have a fastenal account, if i'd have known the right part number to order them by i would have had some L19 grade hardware a long time ago ( I forget the alloy number now but i know it's a pretty easy to obtain tool steel) which is funny that they say not to handle it, my tool steel blank rod comes in the same wrapping paper with wax coating and i unwrap it, handle it, use it, cut from it, lathe/mill it etc... wipe it with oil and put it back in "stock" and i've never had any of it be an issue, I have had it develope some surface corrosion over a year's time but reallygoing from box to car, the acids in the oils on your skin isn't gonna do any notable damage to the bolts, i think it's a "caution" to scatre you into thinking your money was well spent on an exotic "untouchable" super steel

\Ok, OK i'll get off my high horse, but seriousely people (cough, ARP cough MAP) i love your products but isn't a few hundred % proifit enough, do you really need to make a few thousand percent markup on us for bolts, hell we could all do the our whole engines in the same grade hardware if it was divided out into the right parts and sold to us at a normal market value...even at the hardware store, I see metric fasters go for 2.50 for a M6 x 1.09 x 45mm long allen bolt, and i can get a hundred of the same bolt for about 7 bucks at fastenal. Even at my local fastenal product distributor

How abhout PM'ing me the fastenal part number for L19 head studs

I'll be honest Glenn... I cheated. My cousin runs a Fastenal store here and was ordering a bunch of L19 hardware in various sizes for a company that has a fleet of high power diesels they drive out into the bushes for oilfield work. There isn't any performance parts suppliers here, so specialty hardware is often ordered through Fastenal by local businesses. The L19's are used for more than just holding engines together. I've seen them ordered for drilling rigs too, though I don't know what they use them on. Anyhow, when I saw how much she was paying for them on the purchase order, I asked her to tack my order on with it, and it was cheaper than paying for a new boxed set of the normal ARP's from a traditional vendor. The company they were being bought for doesn't buy anything but the best. They have so much money from oil profits right now, it wouldn't surprise me if the people running it all fart $100 bills. I just didn't bother looking into the physical attributes vs. the regular old ARP studs. No need to really, as I am not producing enough power right now to exceed even the stock head bolts clamping ability. It was just one of those purchases where I knew they were better than stock, so I bought them because the opportunity was there. All I knew before this was that they were high strength ARP's and I had seen them mentioned on here, and that when I torqued them down, they didn't give AT ALL... there was none of that progressive give you feel when you're doing the stockers final torque down. They just clamp down and stop, which when using a 20" 1/2 drive wrench isn't the norm, so I knew they were strong.

... and yes, even at the price I got them for, they are outrageously expensive for bolts. There's no way in hell I'd pay the retail price for them unless I had something like what you or Paul drives that actually REQUIRES them to prevent the head from lifting.

 

[1fastlaser]

Definitely mark up. I looked into fastener places and they can make studs out of your metal of choice very inexpensively.

It is crazy how much they mark up, plus the fact that it comes with standard nuts. I guess in a way its good I had some very high cylinder pressure issues and lifted a head with l19s, it literally squeezed the nuts down trying to lift the head off .

 

[H@xtGSX]

Glenn, I'll have to go ask. I don't have an account with them and don't do much ordering through them. I just sponge off of my cousin and her account.

Edit: I was wrong. They are NOT L19's. What she ordered was from a specification equivalency standard the company had given her. So there was a range of products with similar characteristics that could be used, and L19's were part of the spec (as an example), which just happened to be what caught my eye on the order. They aren't being used just for the trucks though. Apparently they needed a whole bunch of them in various forms and sizes for some sort of gas fracking operation they are working on. Fastenal doesn't order ARP's, but they can machine studs with similar properties. The studs I got came in bulk with the other bolts ordered, from a plant Fastenal has in Houston. They are actually made from a steel called MP35N, which is similar to L19's in strength from what I gather off of the internet. They are an "aged" (heated I assume) variant of MP35N and are supposed to yield at somewhere around 235000ksi, which is pretty rediculously high strength. I highly doubt I will ever be able to put them under enough stress to do anything to them at all... so, they should be a good enough substitute, and they were nowhere near $27 a piece.

 

[red1993gsallmt]

My head I have a local guy to me setup my machine work and I ring my head. My head from 3 years ago I did. Damn he got all ricer on you with the little 4 banger.

You could easily run the I ring with a composite, or do non o ring with a composite. I ran non o ring with a composite for a while, and have a buddy with a hx40 35psi, pump and meth 21 degrees of timing on a felpro standard arps and a non o ringed head.

what kind of timing did you get away with on pump with your old 2.4?

 

[1fastlaser]

15 degrees 30ish psi

 

[keltalon]

I used to run an oringed head with a mitsu mls, worked great for years but finally failed due to heat and abuse. I had to mill the head and since I am building a 2g head I really don't want to spend the money on removing the orings and welding the groves shut, valve job etc. So for now Im just leaving the rings in it and milling them flat and want to try a composite with the l19s. Guys that are running 30psi plus what composite gasket are you using? Copper spray? What tourqe specs?

Do you by chance know the measurement of your protrusion on your o-ring? This will determine a whole lot by way of what to do and to what gasket to run next. A composite gasket will need more protrusion than a mls head gasket. Pm me and I can give you the low down on which gasket to use with what you have currently. There is a gasket that will blow your pistons first before its blown or leak I took time to study this a while back when I was having the imfamous coolant pushing issue! Pm me if you are interested

 

[1fastlaser]

M2 race systems used a .009 protrusion for all there I ring jobs and have no issues with sealing with a mls or composite.