Garrett & Holset Turbo Users - Your Oil Drain May Be Too Small!

[kicker91laser]

This is interesting. I am considering contacting a machinist I know and seeing if he can make some 3/4" id flanges and welding some -12 bungs to it, if there is enough room for it.

 

[dsm-onster]

Totally true, which is why I want to track down a nice non-turbo oil pan to solve this issue. I'll use the stock oil drain location, but I'll make the hole in the pan as big as I can without the worry of keeping the pipe between the two bolt holes enough to get a bolt in it and a wrench on the bolt.

I don't see why you can't open up the hole big enough and it have any issues. We'll all have to get completely different flanges now. Because there's no way a garret kit for our cars has enough diameter at the oil pan end of the return line to meet the requirements.

I have a spare n/t oil pan laying around . I may use it. I just need to figure out what I'm going to do here. I plan on really pushing this turbo. So I don't want there to be any issue.

 

[gstryyder]

So would it not be possible for me to just open up the hole on the pan to make it bigger? and have a fitting welded on or something? Thats what i was thinking about doing... just make the hole bigger. doesnt matter how it needs to be done. It will get done..

i am gonna have to get a custom line made anyways... i will figure something out...

maybe i could just weld the hole shut (with a plate or something) and tap my own hole up a little higher also and put a fitting up higher... seems like a pretty simple set of solutions... any input anyone?

 

[andytalon]

Here are a couple rule of thumbs so we can just clarify this whole problem.

-You need a good working pcv/crank case vent system for your drain to work properly.
-For a holset a -10 is plenty anythin bigger wouldnt hurt but is not needed.
-Your drain line CANNOT have any kinks at all.
-A -4 line is fine for a journal bearing turbo.
-A journal bearing turbo wants as much oil as it can get you DO NOT want a restrictor on a journal bearing turbo you want to basically pour oil on it, the problem is when you are shooting oil at 100psi it is filling up the chra to fast and not draining. I would not recommend running a restrictor off the of ofh just for the reason as all our cars have different oil pressure and you are basically shooting oil at it like a pressure washer. A jornual bearing turbo wants the oil poured on it and a lot of it. You do not need alot of pressure as much as oil volume.
-100 psi is to much pressure for these turbos 60-70 psi is fine as a max. I will try to get a video up of my line flowing from the head to show you.
-Run your line from the head with no restictors -4 line and -10 drain without a kink you will be fine.
-When you install a brand new turbo you NEED to put 5- 10 drops of oil in it and spin the comp wheel so the bearing has some oil and it does not run dry. If you install a new turbo with out doing that that alone will cut the lifespan in half.

Take this info as you would like, I don't mean to start a whole debate over this but in my opinion and what I know. I UNDERSTAND PEOPLE RUN RESTICTORS AND OFF THE OFH's WITH NO PROBLEMS PLEASE DO NOT START A DEBATE.

I would love to make a list of people who have blown there turbos and reasons why, because turbos don't just blow, its extremely rare to have a bad turbo. Its almost 100% of the time the installer or improper oiling or contaminated oil that causes turbo failure.

~Andy

 

[airmail96]

Only thing I have to ask is are you stating this for a car with or without BS?

 

[andytalon]

does your stock turbo blow running it off the head?

 

[airmail96]

No sir, so I guess I just asked a stupid question .

 

[andytalon]

Also something to add. If you have a backed up drain, your turbo won't just blow up, you may get some smoke because oil is going past the seals. THIS DOES NOT mean your turbo is blown. Think of the oil seal in a turbo as piston rings, they have end gaps, so oil going past it doesn't mean its blown. Usually if you have a bad drain your turbo will burn oil and you will notice this(Blue smoke out the exhaust). Something else to add is to put a oil pressure sensor at your head not at the ofh. You should leave the stock pressure unit at the ofh and put a aftermarket one at your head. A good rule of thumb from the head should be 10 psi per 1k rpm.

 

[gstryyder]

Here are a couple rule of thumbs so we can just clarify this whole problem.

-For a holset a -10 is plenty anythin bigger wouldnt hurt but is not needed.

not wanting to start anything but, according to holset the actual inside (flowable area's) diameter of a -10an is too small. i will stay on the safe side just in case and get a bigger one fabbed up.

-A -4 line is fine for a journal bearing turbo.
-A journal bearing turbo wants as much oil as it can get you DO NOT want a restrictor on a journal bearing turbo you want to basically pour oil on it, the problem is when you are shooting oil at 100psi it is filling up the chra to fast and not draining. I would not recommend running a restrictor off the of ofh just for the reason as all our cars have different oil pressure and you are basically shooting oil at it like a pressure washer. A jornual bearing turbo wants the oil poured on it and a lot of it. You do not need alot of pressure as much as oil volume.
-100 psi is to much pressure for these turbos 60-70 psi is fine as a max. I will try to get a video up of my line flowing from the head to show you.
-Run your line from the head with no restictors -4 line and -10 drain without a kink you will be fine.
-When you install a brand new turbo you NEED to put 5- 10 drops of oil in it and spin the comp wheel so the bearing has some oil and it does not run dry. If you install a new turbo with out doing that that alone will cut the lifespan in half.

ALL of this info is very true and should be read thoroughly by everyone, since this is a very good description as to the right way to do it. i too, will be going this route. thanks for posting that up! low oil pressure is the KEY, and starving it for oil is never a good thing.


~Andy

thanks for posting this info up because it is what many holset people need to pay attention to.

 

[andytalon]

I belive people should not at all be even feeding a journal bearing turbo off the ofh. I understand that yea you want clean oil because it is right after the oil filter but, turbo run on cars for sometimes over 200k what makes you think your turbo is going to blow because you aren't running it right after the oil filter??? Mitsubishi ran it from the head for a reason. If you think you are going to blow your turbo from running it from the head you are retarded and obviously have contaminated oil or have a bad motor or somthing else that is making your oil full of junk. I don't even know the reason for running your feed from the ofh it really has no reason and is pointless. Now if you have a Pos motor full of metal flakes in it you've got other things to worry about other than putting a new turbo on that needs to be fed from the ofh just so you don't affect the turbo with your dirty oil. I don't mean to run on about all this or sound negative I just want to try to explain everything I can to help people out because people there is way to much bull around these forums.



-As for the the larger drain, I personally would run a 7/8 drain, but my -10 works fine, you could make a custom -12 line that would work well.

 

[myturbo]

how many MM is 10an and 12an etc ????

..nevermind . 8an is 9.75mm ID and im running 17.30mm ID .so is that like 12an or 14an ?

 

[gsxtasy]

how many MM is 10an and 12an etc ????

..nevermind . 8an is 9.75mm ID and im running 17.30mm ID .so is that like 12an or 14an ?

12AN is 19.05mm
14AN is 22.23mm

So, neither.

 

[gstryyder]

andytalon- i am with ya on your last post. simple enough to figure out. glad someone on here knows how to keep it real.

 

[bluegs03]

Since hearing about this ive been doing some research, ive talked to a few people who have had there holsets running for a while and been pushing 400+ hp. There is one common thread between all of em that i have found. They have all made there own oil drain's. Each of them has been equal or greater in size that 19mm inside diameter drains. ive only talked to 2 holset users but both of them have been running 4000+ miles no problem on their custom drains.

Now here is a conversion chart stolen shameless from Summit racing
http://www.summitracing.com/streetandstrip/tech_content.asp?ID={56AF17E7-5FE2-4977-8013-42508F100FFF}

Hose and Fitting Tips
1. You've probably heard this one before, but AN stands for Army-Navy. Established many years ago by the U.S. military as a common measurement for hose and fittings, it designates the outside diameter (o.d.) of the rigid metal tube that is compatible with each size fitting. These dash sizes are expressed as the numerator of the fraction, with the denominator always being 16. For example, a –04 port is 4/16, or 1/4 inch.

Here a list of common AN to fractional equivalents:
-02 AN = 1/8 inch
-03 AN = 3/16 inch
-04 AN = 1/4 inch
-05 AN = 5/16 inch
-06 AN = 3/8 inch
-08 AN = 1/2 inch
-10 AN = 5/8 inch
-12 AN = 3/4 inch
-14 AN = 7/8 inch
-16 AN = 1 inch
-20 AN = 1 1/4 inches
-24 AN = 1 1/2 inches
-32 AN = 2 inches


jusmx141 pointed out that the diameter for the holset center cartage is 7/8th diameter. He also pointed out from the holset manual that the oil drain has a minimum of 19mm.

So looking at this chart the 14an fitting has a diameter of 7/8ths (equal to the holset center cartage hole) which is equal to 22.2250mm.
Now i bet your asking why not 12AN it has a diameter of 3/4ths inch which is equal to 19mm?? What are you smoking?? Well looking at the paragraph above you can see that this is the OUTSIDE diameter of the hose not the inside diameter, which makes 14an have the necessary inside diameter that we need in order to run 19mm inside diameter hose.

Obviously no one sells a 14an kit for the dsm... bummer, so that means for my holset oil drain setup im gonna have to make it! I plan on getting some 1/4th inch aluminum and making my own flanges buying 3/4th inch id fittings along with 3/4 id silicon hoses. Then im gonna tap the aluminum with threads for the fittings and put some worm clamps on it and hope it holds!

This leaves only one problem the stock oil return is way to small so what im hoping to do is enlarge it to 19mm and try and make it work. if not then i can create a block off flange and drill my own hole.


Cliff notes 14an is the way to go, but you have to create your own kit...

 

[JusMX141]

Since hearing about this ive been doing some research, ive talked to a few people who have had there holsets running for a while and been pushing 400+ hp. There is one common thread between all of em that i have found. They have all made there own oil drain's. Each of them has been equal or greater in size that 19mm inside diameter drains. ive only talked to 2 holset users but both of them have been running 4000+ miles no problem on their custom drains.

THIS is the info I'm looking for.

Awesome work, bluegs03; your research is much appreciated.


I'm thinking of buying an actual Holset drain pipe from a Dodge truck with a Cummins and seeing what it's inside diameter is, then possibly modifying it to fit my application.

 

[Artago]

This is great info on this thread and I appreciate it but it seems to be focused on Holset turbos. Does all this apply verbatim to other turbos such as Bullseye Power JBl turbos? IE: My T04E - 57 Trim?

Or do Holsets use the same center section?

The reason I ask because there are a lot of people not running Holsets, but other JB turbos, and we would like to know how to protect them.

I'm not raggin' on anyone, in fact, the participation on this thread has been excellent, all I want to know is if this applies to other JB turbos?

Thanks all,

Tom

 

[dsm-onster]

FWIW, OEM garrett return lines for various factory turbocharged automobiles have much smaller return line diameters than 19mm.

 

[bluegs03]

THIS is the info I'm looking for.

Awesome work, bluegs03; your research is much appreciated.


I'm thinking of buying an actual Holset drain pipe from a Dodge truck with a Cummins and seeing what it's inside diameter is, then possibly modifying it to fit my application.

No problem any research i do helps out everyone not just my setup. From what ive heard the stock oil drain is smaller than 19mm, Apparently thats because diesel's have lower oil pressure? At least thats what im getting out of this thread, the info is kinda conflicting. Maybe post up a question on a dodge truck forum and get them to measure their stock drain instead of buying one?

Artago: I totally agree that this has been centered around holset's and the only reason i focused my research around it is because im planning on running one! i imagine the center sections are similar but more research is required to find that out. If you have a vested interest in the 57 trim because you own it then bust out the measuring tools and see how big the oil drain is. If it is 7/8ths inch across then you will need a 7/8ths inch drain. Rule of thumb that i have gotten from this thread is make your oil drain at least as big as the hole in the center cartage.

 

[99gst_racer]

Isn't -AN measured in 1/16th's of an inch. -10 AN is 10/16=5/8''=15.87mm. Or am I off on that? This has struck my interest as I'm preparing to install my new BW and also have the -10 drain setup.

That is only a rule of thumb. Most AN fitting ID's are actually much smaller than that rule of thumb.

Here's the ID of the -10 bungs that I have welded onto my oil pan:

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[andy4g63]

That is only a rule of thumb. Most AN fitting ID's are actually much smaller than that rule of thumb.

Here's the ID of the -10 bungs that I have welded onto my oil pan:

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Yes, exactly Paul. Just curious why you have 2 fittings?

P.S. BTW, I have Perma-Cool spin-on adapter and Oil filter bracket and both of them have 1/2 NPT inlet/outlet, but the smallest they recommend is -8AN. And we talking some pressure here, especially under WOT/well over 100 PSI- in some cases/. As far, as I know, there is no pressure in the oil-drain/return line. So this is just a thought.

 

[99gst_racer]

Yes, exactly Paul. Just curious why you have 2 fittings?

One for each turbo.

As far, as I know, there is no pressure in the oil-drain/return line. So this is just a thought.

The turbo's drain works off gravity, but there is still some pressure there. If oil pressure enters the CHRA, it's got to exit, right?

I had my drain line tear in half in my driveway many moons ago. Without knowing, I took off down the road. I lost my engine's entire oil capacity in just over a 1/2 mile of driving. That stuff was definitely pouring out of there with more force than gravity.

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[andy4g63]

After it gets out of CHRA, there is no pressure, but that doesn't mean you won't be losing your oil. That is why the drain is so large.

Twin turbos, especially in compound configuration, should be bad ass.

 

[dsm-onster]

Oops. Let the cat out of the bag

 

[turboglenn]

What really makes the return line size important is that the turbo whips the oil into a frothy foam at high loads and it can't just run like a stream of oil being poured so it has to be able to escape in it' sa"Foamy" condition and the larger the return the more bubbles and froth can make their way in... there's really no pressure to speak of unless the return is fully pinch off. At idle the turbo should see at least 1/2 to 3/4 cup of oil draining from it in one minute IIRC, that was the test procedure outlined when i did my aprenticeship at majestic turbo.

Ive used the rules they tought me on every turbo install i've done and have never had the problems i hear about people having on here with the seals and everything else..and i feed my journal bearing garret from the head...took a OEM 1g feed line, cut it in half (kept the side on the head), then used compression coupling to adapt it to a -3AN fitting to connect to the turbo.. now i have well over 90k on this turbo and no signs of bad bearings or seals FWIW

 

[gsxtasy]

That is only a rule of thumb. Most AN fitting ID's are actually much smaller than that rule of thumb.

Thanks Paul, I wasn't sure if that was fact or not. It was just floating around in my head, like so many other things.