ds-map.net is down ?

[v8killer]

If the info their is lost, I wonder how much could be found with waybackmchine.org?

none i already tried.

 

[vinnybean]

There is still a lot of hate on ds-map. The reason there was an issue from the beginning is because most of this site promotes link. <---like it or not. When someone asked a question and someone said "oh go check out ds-map its cheaper and better then link"....you had 100 pissed off people defending link...thats really the bottom line. No one that said ds-map is better then link was told to say that....it was an opinion.....just like saying link is better is an opinion.

There is a lot to this entire situation. A lot I don't know and even more that people making comments don't know. ds-map is open source. You did not have to buy things from the bossman to get it operating, but he provided parts to make things easier.

Its no wonder this all happened. Ds-map was very eliteist. There were very un-open to anybody who had a differen't way to do things. If you tried to discuss things they didn't want to do, they all cried witch, and burned you at the stake.

It seemed to me hak had an "I know more than you complex." When I challenged him, and asked for his sources I simply got the ban stick.

ds-map in its current state is a handicap to any car making serious power. Having static timing from about 11psi up is a shit deal when running 25+psi. Also, the logging interface is far from trouble free, it never worked and when it did, it would only grab data at about 1hz. Half the speed of a pocket logger.

Ha....I was a member since 06 and couldn't disagree more. They loved different ideas.....they where not elitist at all(you will find many more "elitist's" here and on link forums)....I doubt you got the ban stick for simply challenging him.....and that last paragraph is pretty much all B/S.

 

[MY1GDSM]

none i already tried.

That's odd...
Has their been more then one Url ???

If it could be kept on topic on to the technical facts it should work an it would be nice for some of the more DIY types... but, by mentioning problems in the past people try to discuss them again...

 

[v8killer]

That's odd...
Has their been more then one Url ???

If it could be kept on topic on to the technical facts it should work an it would be nice for some of the more DIY types... but, by mentioning problems in the past people try to discuss them again...

I don't know i checked earlier.

 

[bastarddsm]

Ha....I was a member since 06 and couldn't disagree more. They loved different ideas.....they where not elitist at all(you will find many more "elitist's" here and on link forums)....I doubt you got the ban stick for simply challenging him.....and that last paragraph is pretty much all B/S.

Are you kidding me? The only things I ever saw anyone open to were getting werewolf done, and adding stupid things like various alarms and such. Instead of concentrating on important things like improving the serial comunications speed (an area LINK currently has a huge advantage in btw), HAK spent time arguning with Chris, Talking about getting WW done, and trying to prove that load based maps are horrible.

I FLAT ASKED HAK WHAT QUALIFICATIONS HE HAD THAT ALLOWED HIM TO SAY THAT PRESSURE BASED MAPS ARE BETTER THAN LOAD BASED, AND I WAS PROMPTLY BANNED. Instead of sacking up and stating that hes not a powertrain enginer, he banned me, and couldn't cite any sources for his statements.

Honestly, 90% of JACKAL (you included) users don't make enough power to notice any of the shortcomings of JACKAL. Once you start getting into the 40+lb/min territory with turbo's that don't spool like a 14b you need very dynamic control of timing, and logging with a lot of samples per second. Both of which JACKAL does not offer. When I started looking for a simple fix for the timing issue, I was told that I didn't need it, and I needed permission to work on the code. Both from people who were still running 14b's.

And yes, there was quite a few hackjob cars. One with a stack, and the kid was running bottom 12's on JUNKYARD TIRES, but yet could afford a twindisc.

 

[steve]

So I went on my own, modded the code to fit my needs, and never looked back.

I ended up using a version of the old sd code from the yahoo group that i modded for what i wanted. Way less drama over on the yahoo group.

Did you guys post your changes and mods to the SD code back to the Yahoo Group?

ds-map is open source.

DS-Map/Jackal/Werewolf wasn't open source. The SD code on the Yahoo Group that DS-MAP started with is freely available and anyone can take it and modify it and share their changes. That's as close as you can get to open source as is possible for something that was reverse engineered "borrowed" code to begin with. Once you take something and stop freely sharing your changes your hard pressed to call it open source.

 

[dsm-onster]

Kurt and Donnie, Many of those issues were already brought up. I asked them the same basics over here with one of the link vs. map threads that of course went haywire. So I know it was at least already addressed once here. Not getting on your a$$es at all. I'm just not sure if picking at an already apparent wound in the project will really help now. It's not that your points arn't absolutely valid and important to note. I've even been addressing them myself in the past. But, we're trying to be bigger here. Those points can come out in legitimate and low emotion discussions that should be occuring now in the tuning forum of this site. Your advice and experience will greatly assist those using this tuning solution. And the entire community should be thankful we have a place that can have folks like you all willing to contribute your knowledge in the assistance of anyone, regardless of their personal opinions. As long as facts are discussed in the proper setting, everyone benefits.

 

[vinnybean]

Honestly, 90% of JACKAL (you included) users don't make enough power to notice any of the shortcomings of JACKAL. Once you start getting into the 40+lb/min territory with turbo's that don't spool like a 14b you need very dynamic control of timing, and logging with a lot of samples per second. Both of which JACKAL does not offer. When I started looking for a simple fix for the timing issue, I was told that I didn't need it, and I needed permission to work on the code. Both from people who were still running 14b's.

And yes, there was quite a few hackjob cars. One with a stack, and the kid was running bottom 12's on JUNKYARD TIRES, but yet could afford a twindisc.

dynamic control of timing = sliders?

When I said your last paragraph....I meant the last one I quoted. I could care less about a few hackjobs cars. There where def. people that made decent power and where over 40lb/min.

DS-Map/Jackal/Werewolf wasn't open source. The SD code on the Yahoo Group that DS-MAP started with is freely available and anyone can take it and modify it and share their changes. That's as close as you can get to open source as is possible for something that was reverse engineered "borrowed" code to begin with. Once you take something and stop freely sharing your changes your hard pressed to call it open source.

When I first signed up....they where on the old code of ds-map.....it was free....anyone could download it that was signed up. Then there was Jackal.....also free anyone could download it.....Werewolf was the first that was not free. I'm guessing due to the time that was put in.

So yes ds-map and jackal where open source....and yes it all started with borrowed reverse engineered code.

Maybe not open source....but free.<-----all most people care about.

 

[CrackedDSM]

I'm very impressed with you Luda and Paul(99GSTRacer). I expected you two to be super arrogant and throw out "I told you so!" and have a general bash fest. Takes some pride to admit that.


However everyone else taking this opportunity to throw your retarded opinions out there about Jackal, need to go somewhere else. You are off-topic, you are harassing members, and insulting members of this forum. That's three rules you have broken right off the top of my head. Either say something nice, or move the hell on. This thread is about DS-Map, and it's users to reconnect, not "hey, let's come in and kick all the Jackal users while they are down". Show some damn class for once in your life, and just let bygones by bygones and leave the bashing until another day. None of you must have parents, because it seems 90% of you posting in this thread have never heard the saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all".

 

[99gst_racer]

dynamic control of timing = sliders?

I know some of you guys think you're cute and funny when you make fun of "sliders", but give it a rest already. It's old news. Most of us Link users haven't used sliders in years - and even when we did, they worked great. It makes you sound a little on the ignorant side to prod something that was improved years ago and that you never used anyway. It's not like DS-map brought individual cell loading to the automotive tuning market.

Again though, this thread isn't for debating tuning platform features. Save that for a tech thread discussion.

 

[snowborder714]

However everyone else taking this opportunity to throw your retarded opinions out there about Jackal, need to go somewhere else. You are off-topic, you are harassing members, and insulting members of this forum. That's three rules you have broken right off the top of my head. Either say something nice, or move the hell on. This thread is about DS-Map, and it's users to reconnect, not "hey, let's come in and kick all the Jackal users while they are down". Show some damn class for once in your life, and just let bygones by bygones and leave the bashing until another day. None of you must have parents, because it seems 90% of you posting in this thread have never heard the saying "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all".

Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

The thread was started to ask about the website and what it's status was. We've obviously deviated from that topic A LOT, and you don't seem to be helping.

 

[Ludachris]

There is still a lot of hate on ds-map. The reason there was an issue from the beginning is because most of this site promotes link. <---like it or not.

And that's likely because most people on this site (and in the DSM community) are used to Link and have had good experiences with it. There was never any call to action trying to band all our members together against dsmap, nor was there any direction from myself, so it's not like the negative reaction was ever a result of "this site". I think people tend to see this site as the problem in the dsmap debate, but the reality is that dsmap is a competitor to DSMlink, a product that has had a lot of passionate supporters in the community over the past decade. It has less to do with "this site" than it does the DSM community as a whole. And we do have the largest group of DSMers in any one place - people who participate in other DSM forums usually participate here too, so it's not like we're just a separate group of DSMers around here. DSMtuners probably represents the majority of DSMers better than any other site out there.

 

[TexasTurbo]

Hello everyone, I think it's time that someone that can speak on what happened chimes in here. This is FluxCapacitor. Please don't ban me, I'm not here to start trouble or push anything upon anyone. I will tell the facts as I have them and let you guys decide how this all works.

A few years ago I became involved with Hakcenter and the ds-map project when there was VERY little traffic on that site. We became friends, and while I may not have agreed with the way he handled people I felt I could help. I did help for a very long time. Ds-map.net was hosted for the better part of almost 2 years for FREE on servers/hosting that I had control of and generously shared with a "friend". I live in Austin, my little brother lives in Dallas. My little brother was hosting the stuff at home on his FIOS connection after we migrated the site away from CIHost.com's hosting that we were using for free due to personal connections I had within that datacenter.

So, my little bro did this as a favor to me as he doesn't know Hak. So fast forward to a few days ago. January 14th to be exact. Someone thought it'd be good to start talking about politics and religion on ds-map because "we have an intelligent group of people and should be able to talk about this without a problem." Right? Wrong. As some of you may know Hak is very Christian. He was getting overly heated and I could see it quickly going down hill like I thought it would.

I interjected and said, "this thread is now also for discussion about aliens and pyramids" thinking that this is equally as controversial and would possibly server to quell the impending shit flinging fest that was already taking root there. Hak FREAKED out, took my mod status stating that he "wasn't sure what I would do and didn't some 'crazy guy' removing data from his discussion." Anyone that knows me knows that I would never try to censor something like that or much of anything really.

At that point we had a conversation via chat and this is part of it:

January 14th 2011

(18:09:40) [email protected]: i'm not going to bring this up to alex (my little brother) right now, but i'd say it's time to move along.

(18:09:44) Curtis Hacker (hakcenter): if thats honestly the way you actually feel, but I'll talk to your brother about it, cause we have a pretty good repor

So, I tell Hak, since this site is no longer in my interest, that he would need to migrate to another host and we wouldn't be hosting ds-map.net for free anymore. His response was pretty much, "nah don't worry about it, i have good repor with your little brother, i'll handle it with him." Seriously?

I let that ride until the 17th. Hak creates a "good bye Flux" thread that is pretty much just bad mouthing me and making me out to be a bad guy. I quoted a conversation that Hak had with Nick Sanders (the originator of DSMap) where Hak said he didn't understand the eprom code all that well and still needed a lot of help. People were PM'ing me asking what was going on, and how come the logging cables and Were Wolf was taking so long to finish. I felt it was necessary to tell them, so I did. Hak is learning as he goes, which is ok, but you have to NOT take peoples' money for a project that has no release date. I'm not sure that's good business practice.

So, Hak then censors the "goodbye" thread and deletes it, banning me in the process saying I misquoted him when I was copy/pasting out of chat logs. After I was banned I picked up the phone and called my little brother's girlfriend who was at home and had her unplug the ethernet chord from our server. Of course Hak starts blowing up the phones freaking out talking about, where's my data. I gave him 3 days to move, and he blew me off and continued to insult me and belittle me in front of the people that I worked so hard for for so long.

That's what happened. The site is going to be coming back up. Hak messaged me this morning saying that he found a backup from 11-28-10. He's going to be restoring it onto his hosting plan that doesn't offer the features that we had before such as the chat server.

My plan now, is to move forward with ecu/tuning development and discussion so I registered dsmecu.com yesterday (anyone is welcome there it's not specific to any tuning system). I'd like for Hak to release what he's been working on for the community to continue. I don't think that this is going to happen as he's counting on this project to be a means of making money for him at some point. A few members and myself all remember being told that the software would always remain free. I think he could make money off selling the data logging cables and map sensors he designed while leaving the software open for anyone to develop and patch. I think the dev cycle of the software would rapidly increase if this were the case.

In any case, this is the story from my side. I'm probably not going to be on the ds-map.net site much anymore as Hak is not going to trust me and I don't trust him which is a shame because in a lot of ways I was the front man for the site and did a TON of personal relations work with people to generate interest.... something Hak isn't so swell at.

Let me know if anyone has any questions and I'll be sure and do my best to answer them.

I'd like to apologize for any bad interactions that ds-map has caused on this forum in the past even though I'm not a part of the site anymore. I know this is a huge community and I just wished that people were a little more open minded here and not so quick to spout off answers to stuff. That's a big reason why I lost interest in this site. In any case, you guys keep boosting and never think about wiping that shit eating grin off your face.

 

[Ludachris]

Everyone, let's move forward on this. Their site is down for whatever reason. It looks like someone is working towards getting some of that info back online somehow. If you'd like to discuss dsmap/jackal here in our Tuning forum, you're welcome to do so. We'll do what we can to keep the heated arguments on both sides in check. There's no reason a discussion talking about dsmap or Link should turn into a debate about which product is better (Link/DSmap). So I ask you all to stay on topic in those discussions and not add to the ridiculous drama that has plagued this situation from the beginning.

Thank you.

 

[architechnik]

Again though, this thread isn't for debating tuning platform features. Save that for a tech thread discussion.

Don't bring it to the tech thread either! !
Just drop it, people. There are always those with opinions and it's usually based on personal ownership and validation of worth. Unless you have a degree and experience in whatever field you're claiming to be an expert in, there is no real reason for much of the claims one way or another.
Until you can understand that there are no right or wrong answers, or that there are exclusions for every situation, you will not be able to address that actual issues.

 

[LandoAWD]

I don't think that this is going to happen as he's counting on this project to be a means of making money for him at some point. A few members and myself all remember being told that the software would always remain free.

! I have nothing more to say about the guy, but had to quote this for posterity.

Good luck on the future ventures, Flux. Don't slip into that wolf/sheep BS he was spoon-feeding folks and keep it about a solid product, not some crackpot theories.

 

[vinnybean]

I know some of you guys think you're cute and funny when you make fun of "sliders", but give it a rest already. It's old news. Most of us Link users haven't used sliders in years - and even when we did, they worked great. It makes you sound a little on the ignorant side to prod something that was improved years ago and that you never used anyway. It's not like DS-map brought individual cell loading to the automotive tuning market.

Again though, this thread isn't for debating tuning platform features. Save that for a tech thread discussion.

I think its funny...mostly because it bothers you guys. It worked...it worked great.....it is old news, but so is ds-map right? You and bastarddsm are never going to use ds-map anyways.....why are you here? You guys seem like ignorant ones to me....

 

[LandoAWD]

You're a child in a man-suit, aren't you? It's misinformation, pure and simple, and it's perpetuated by a few who can't see past their own slanted view of reality.

I love how we offered to keep "your" product's thread clean and you come bump gums about Link. You just can't help yourself, and it's sad.

 

[99gst_racer]

Don't bring it to the tech thread either! !

There's nothing wrong with a good debate as long as it's done maturely and professionally. There's nothing wrong with discussing features and differences of two different products. It's happens every day here. IMO, a good product usually sells itself. So as long as slander and defamation of a competing product aren't used to help promote a product, then everything is just peachy and a good tech discussion can take place.

 

[vinnybean]

And that's likely because most people on this site (and in the DSM community) are used to Link and have had good experiences with it. There was never any call to action trying to band all our members together against dsmap, nor was there any direction from myself, so it's not like the negative reaction was ever a result of "this site". I think people tend to see this site as the problem in the dsmap debate, but the reality is that dsmap is a competitor to DSMlink, a product that has had a lot of passionate supporters in the community over the past decade. It has less to do with "this site" than it does the DSM community as a whole. And we do have the largest group of DSMers in any one place - people who participate in other DSM forums usually participate here too, so it's not like we're just a separate group of DSMers around here. DSMtuners probably represents the majority of DSMers better than any other site out there.

I'll drop it....just wanted to say I don't look at this site as the problem....this site is a tool. I didn't intend to come off like that.

 

[bastarddsm]

Did you guys post your changes and mods to the SD code back to the Yahoo Group?

No, but all I really did was implement the already known "double load maps". Figured everybody already knew how to do it.

BUT, I think i've found a quick and easy way to make the maps pressure based. I will post that.

 

[TexasTurbo]

I am not sure why dsmlink is in this thread anywhere or how it even got brought up.

All I know is this thread, three pages in, already looks a lot like any other dsmap thread that has already been on this forum in the past. Lot's of controversy and bickering back and forth already. Build your cars to haul ass and if you want to have a technical discussion about ecu modifications feel free to join the DSM ECU site I started.

There is no monetary gain for me on there, nor desire to make any money. I might get tshirts made some day but that's not decided at this point. I just want people to have high level discussion without all the bullshit.

I admit that dsmap was a bit elitist. That is NOT what my aim is or ever was.

Also, Lowell made (I believe) over 500 hp on Jackal and Ray Peters tuned a twin charged DSM on Jackal.... so yeah. Saying it's crap software that doesn't cater to higher hp guys isn't true. I'm not here to defend dsmap, I'm here to attempt to recover some of the broken community we're left with and to make good with the people that operate this site.

I went to the DSM Shootout this year, driving all the way from Texas and felt like I couldn't really talk with a lot of people because of t he bad taste dsmap has left with everyone on this site. I met up with some great people from the dsmap site and had a good time, but at the same time felt like we were part of a very small niche community there... and we were.

No, but all I really did was implement the already known "double load maps". Figured everybody already knew how to do it.

BUT, I think i've found a quick and easy way to make the maps pressure based. I will post that.

As much as I think you're wrong for making fun of Speed Addicts car, you are welcome to come join the dsmecu forum. I never liked the way the discussion board was on the yahoo groups, it's hard to read/navigate. If you don't want to join that is ok and I would understand, but I want to reach out to you to let you know that that site is under different management and people will not be ostracized from there.

 

[bastarddsm]

dynamic control of timing = sliders?

When I said your last paragraph....I meant the last one I quoted. I could care less about a few hackjobs cars. There where def. people that made decent power and where over 40lb/min.

Start making close to 500whp, and you might understand. And yeah, there were maybe a dozen (including me) people on there making good power. But the vast majority were basically stock.

Kurt and Donnie, Many of those issues were already brought up. I asked them the same basics over here with one of the link vs. map threads that of course went haywire

I'm not trying to pick at anything really. Neither am I implying one method was any better than the other. I'm more/less showing my frustration with the way that group behaved. They poked fun at the link crowd for being sheep, when none of them were any better, blindly following a leader who could not appreciate others concerns, and always thought that his method was best, when, in several cases, it was clearly not.

The biggest problem was everybody would follow HAK and tell me that I didn't need the extra timing control, when VERY few actually had a setup that got pushed hard.

Regardless, I lost all respect for the DS-MAP project the day I was called an idiot for wanting to integrate a flex fuel sensor into the dsm ecu to automatically adjust for the % of ethanol.

 

[black_gst]

but at the same time felt like we were part of a very small niche community there... and we were.

i didnt follow the drama the went down some time ago to closely, but from what i did see you guys might have made yourselves outcasts in a way. talking ish about "sliders" and "tooners". Bad mouthing an entire community that would be prospective users of said product seemed pretty dumb.

personally i love dsmlink, but i have a friend running Jackle and we have very similar setups and so far there isnt anything dsmlink does that his doesnt.

i respect both products, if everyone can do the same and not throw around the word "better" and use the word "great" instead im sure we can all get along

 

[bastarddsm]

Also, Lowell made (I believe) over 500 hp on Jackal and Ray Peters tuned a twin charged DSM on Jackal.... so yeah. Saying it's crap software that doesn't cater to higher hp guys isn't true. I'm not here to defend dsmap,

As much as I think you're wrong for making fun of Speed Addicts car, you are welcome to come join the dsmecu forum. I never liked the way the discussion board was on the yahoo groups, it's hard to read/navigate. If you don't want to join that is ok and I would understand, but I want to reach out to you to let you know that that site is under different management and people will not be ostracized from there.

Just in case I wasn't clear, I never meant that Jackal was garbage. My car ran great on it. BUT, the timing deal is a handicap. Unfortunatly, its a handicap that could have been easily fixed. I'm also not fond of the JAVA app that was written, but with the new TunerPro being able to log dsm's its not a big deal.

Anyway, I'll check the site out. We need to figure out better timing map control as well as faster logging.

I think its funny...mostly because it bothers you guys. It worked...it worked great.....it is old news, but so is ds-map right? You and bastarddsm are never going to use ds-map anyways.....why are you here? You guys seem like ignorant ones to me....

What are you talking about? I run DS-MAP, and I have gone faster than you ever will. Flux is here, being very humble, trying to make amends for the years of bickering on this forum, and your stiring the pot with your useless shit. Your immature, and have not contributed anything insightful to this discussion. Don't you have traffic or somthing to go play in?