Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[Dark_Horse]

That was an interesting article. After reading 1/2 of the 100+ page source document, I find I have problems with his calculations. The problem with the source of his paper is that the author doesn't take into account the fact that whether or not ethanol is produced from the corn, the corn will continue to be grown.

The government regulates the amt of corn that they allow into the market to keep prices from dropping like a rock. The farmers are not going to stop growing corn (unless they like the idea of being out of work), so why not make ethanol from the excess? So IMHO (not being a scientist either) all of his calculations are wrong because they take into account the energy (including manpower, gasoline and electrical energy) to grow corn that would be grown anyway. Plus the author takes into account environmental cleanup of the runoff from the corn growing...Which would have been done anyway.

Like I said before, only with ethanol do people take into account things like manpower, electricity to grow the corn etc. The author was all about solar power, but I can do the same calculations and find out that harnassing solar power is inefficient too.

Taking these factors into account in calculating the cost of any type of alternative energy production is absurd. Just my opinion though.

 

[weith1111]

One of the biggest points is that in no way could we supply the amount of corn necessary to produce enough ethanol to replace gasoline. So an alternative it may be, but not likely a replacement.

And yeah, that is one helluva long paper!

 

[gixrman]

I read in a magazine call "Small Business" I think that a company is producing ethanol from various products such as used newpaper, trash, and some other products that is able to be broken down or processed from yeast extracted from bettles, seriously.

 

[bigbrothajake]

If you read here, you'll see that the source of ethanol does not necessarily need to come from just corn. I like the idea of 80 million acres for switchgrass and use of bacteria in termites to make alcohol.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11518172/

 

[Diplomat]

E85 has been around for a while now, the "how-to" has already been posted and additional information can be found in a quick search.

Now, normally I wouldn't contribute to an off topic discussion, but there seems to be a wee bit of confusion as to why E85 is even available to begin with. Dark horse hit the nail on the head.

"Seems like a good way to reduce our dependency on foreign oil."

Bingo.

The primary argument for using E85 instead of gasoline is that it can be home grown. Also, it's a renewable resource. As long as we have the space to grow the raw materials (that means stop reproducing so *** damn much, people), we can quickly produce more as compared to oil which took what, thousands of years to become what it is today?

Unfortunately, there are only a few cars on the road which are "E85 ready" (a.k.a. flex fuel), add to that the other negative aspects already mentioned and that equals the reason that it's not yet available at every gas station in America. Plus we don't produce that much of it yet.

So if our back-stabbing "friends" in the Middle East suddenly decided to stop selling us oil tomorrow morning, then the people with flex fuel cars would be a lot better off than the rest of us. However, since that's not likely to happen (well not THAT likely anyway), most Americans are probably going to adopt a sit-and-wait attitude (you know, our usual attitude). There just aren't enough pros vs. cons to make everyone want to run out and buy an E85 powered car which would mean that E85 would continue to be available only in small quantities, scattered about the nation.

So if you want to support the economy, then convert your car to run on E85 and buy all you can. It's not the answer to our energy problems, but I think it's a step in the right direction. If you're more interested in saving the environment, hats off to you. Your intentions are noble. Go buy a solar powered golf cart.

 

[MNGSX]

Another source.

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/potato.htm

It does not have to be corn. It can be any organic substance that can be converted to ethyl alcohol via a microrganism.

This includes hops and barely left over beer plant waste and MANY other sources.

Converting waste vegetable oil to biodiesel leaves them with glycerol as a waste byproduct. This can be converted to ethanol..

There are many many ways to make it..

There is also a positive energy balance. It has been calculated that 33,000 BTU's total including all stages is used to make 77,000 BTUs worth of ethanol.. That figure is with the more common methods and does not include some of the more effective newer microoganisms or molecular sleeve distillation...


The DOE has a map with all the E85 pumps on it. You would be surprised at how many there really are.

 

[xxxotiknightz]

I recently read an article on a web site called WWW.XCELPLUS.COM, they make a harness that clips between the injector and the main harness to adjust the injector pulse to compensate for E85 fuel. It's warrantied and can be used on any engine with muti-port fuel injection. They say it will run E85 with some simple fluid changes. Lots of info. It costs about $1000 to convert. But the vehicle must run Bousch or Delphi injectors.

 

[gixrman]

I recently read an article on a web site called WWW.XCELPLUS.COM, they make a harness that clips between the injector and the main harness to adjust the injector pulse to compensate for E85 fuel. It's warrantied and can be used on any engine with muti-port fuel injection. They say it will run E85 with some simple fluid changes. Lots of info. It costs about $1000 to convert. But the vehicle must run Bousch or Delphi injectors.

I can do the same thing with DSMlink by changing my injector dead time.

 

[grizzly]

e85 has a lot of alcohol. which means cleaner running, but more corrosive. it also means a higher octane rating, which means more boost. but to convert our cars to e85 compatible wouldn't be so simple. like all new gas lines, comatible filter, injectors, pump, senderunit, tank. also a better tune. who cares if you don't get the same mileage. it is much cheaper than regular petrol(gas). well only untill the government decides that pple actually use it lets make it more expensive. but neways mayb in the future we can convert, but right now its still not worth it.

 

[Jon_0_3]

i am writing a paper for class and was wondering if you could run turbo dsms on E85. if so what would be the pros and what would be the cons? thanks

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Isnt E85 that new low octane fuel? I would say no just because the factory says run 87 octane and thats pretty low. It would probably mess with the plugs, but thats just a guess.

 

[ereckerdeet]

I've run mine on E85 no problem, it's 85%ethanol 15%gasoline. the antiknock index is actually higher than 87 octane, but the ethanol molecules have slightly less power than straight gas so you get a little less mileage. you'd have to keep an eye on timing and knock in well modified(300+awhp) applications where things are a little more critical...you need to put more fuel in to make the same power/keep from knocking. also ethanol will loosen the old deposits from your tank/lines so plan on a fuel filter when switching over. it can also eat on some old rubber o-rings, leaks can be a problem but I never ran into this.
bottom line, if the car is stock(as from factory) you should have no problems at all. on modded cars you may need to adjust your tune, but it should all work o-k.

 

[weith1111]

Search and you will find over 50 threads.

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217115

edit: ereckerdeet don't post misinformation. after you read some other threads you will find that you cannot run e85 on cars not designed for it, without having to make alterations to fuel lines, connections, or injectors, etc.

 

[ereckerdeet]

Sorry Weith, not trying to post mis-information, just posting from my personal experience here.

 

[out there]

ereckerdeet, do you have any idea what you're talking about? any dsm WILL burn e85 and run on it... but only until the aluminum and rubber are corroded and you have a BIG and EXPENSIVE mess to fix because you were too foolish to listen to people who have some idea what and what not to do.

i have tried e85 (when it first became available in the area) and found it not beneficial.
1) alcohol has significantly less energy to be released than gasoline, so you will have greatly reduced mileage. normally i trim my low-throttle to -30%; when using 1/2 92 octane and 1/2 e85 i had to increase fuel up to 22% just to get it idle normally.
2) alcohol does have a higher octane value
3) alcohol is less expensive for the consumer (right now), but reduced mileage means you'll be spending the same amount
4) alcohol costs a lot to produce. specifically corn: all the farm equipment that is used to grow, harvest and produce runs on gasoline or diesel, as does the processing machinery (which is also electrical. simple science tells you that energy can't be created or destroyed; in the production of ethanol, energy is converted into waste, the amount of energy that comes out of the production is anywhere between 33% and 70% of what is put into the production of it.

in short, though it costs less, you'll be buying more because it contains less energy than gasoline. -example- no matter how you look at it, your car weighs 3000lbs and requires the same amount of energy to move 100 miles, you can use 4 gallons of gasoline or you can use 5-6 gallons of ethanol and ruin your fuel system at the same time. maybe it's just me, but i would much rather NOT destroy my fuel system while not saving money

 

[dave99gst]

Isnt E85 that new low octane fuel?

no its acualy HI-octane.
and no its not safe for a stock DSM.
You need to be able to add 20% more fuel ( afc,larger injectors,etc )
You should have a plastic gastank (if yer awd you allready got one)
You should loose all the rubber sections of the fuel lines.
and be prepaired to change the fuel filter like every 5k (at least untill all the crap is cleared out of the fuel system)

 

[jepherz]

E85 is around 110 octane. It has about 15% less energy per volume, and about 25-30% more fuel is required because of the lower (about 9.7:1) AFR. You will notice huge gains in your turbo car if you correctly adapt your car to run E85 because of the added timing you will be able to run (due to the higher octane). It is dangerous to run E85 in a car not meant to run it (any DSM) because the ecu will always be shooting for around 14.7 AFR. This means you will be running extremely lean and will be knocking a ton.

 

[GTM]

ereckerdeet, do you have any idea
...

3) alcohol is less expensive for the consumer (right now), but reduced mileage means you'll be spending the same amount
4) alcohol costs a lot to produce. specifically corn: all the farm equipment that is used to grow, harvest and produce runs on gasoline or diesel, as does the processing machinery (which is also electrical. simple science tells you that energy can't be created or destroyed; in the production of ethanol, energy is converted into waste, the amount of energy that comes out of the production is anywhere between 33% and 70% of what is put into the production of it.

You might want to investigate Brazil who have been making leaps and bounds with alcohol production. They have new cars that are only alcohol only, they use sugar cane and the waste fuels the complete refinery, the harvesting equipment uses alcohol.

Yes there are problems to consider and the BTU output is 15% less. However, steam is better than all of them for BTU in and HP out. With better lighter materials, condensers, combusition, etc. burn the cane and save the refinery costs.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[out there]

that's nice, but do you live in an agricultural area to know that almost all of the equipment used currently is the same equipment used 10 years ago? farmers are creatures of habit, if something works, they won't change it. getting a farmer that owns all of his equipment to buy new machinery at the astronomical prices they are sold is not likely. farming is already incredibly hit or miss, no matter what you might hear from news or whatever source you have that tells you it's a gold-mine.
basically, the only realistic way i see ethanol production becoming feasible in the us(from corn and such) is if the govt floats a lot of money towards it.
respond once you pick yourself up from the floor after laughing off that last comment

 

[GTM]

that's nice, but do you live in an agricultural area to know that almost all of the equipment used currently is the same equipment used 10 years ago?
...
us(from corn and such) is if the govt floats a lot of money towards it.
respond once you pick yourself up from the floor after laughing off that last comment

I hope the original poster is investigating what you would not. It just so happened there was a TV news/Speed Chnl short on Brazil's alcohol production on Sunday. By government mandate back in 1977 when the fuel crisis hit, 30 years later they now have private enterprise including farmers building their own self sufficient refineries and lots more to come from this fuel export. We have been too spoiled with low fuel prices yet Shell and other foreign companies who sell gasoline for $7 in UK will refine it here and sell for $2.59 while still making record profits. Sumthin's putrid in Peru. Until our polititions are not owned by big business which is not representing "The American Dream" will we look at what other countries are doing.

I'm old enough to have seen mothers leave home, put their kids who knows where and go into the work-place so they could buy SUVs that get 6mpg. Then we get sold a bill of goods how safe they are but fail to mention they roll over. You probably never heard of the scandal and corruption when Standard OIl, BF Goodrich or Goodyear, and GM agreed to take over the mass transit here in Los Angeles. The three conspired to bankrupt the system so they could each sell more of their products, when discovered some 30-40 yrs later the Government would not prosecute because it would have bankrupted all three companies. ~so goes GM, so goes the nation slogan would have devistated this country. We have the agriculture, maybe need subtropical sugar cane but the rest has already been invented.
...............

Hopefully the poster will investigate the yield of different crops / acre /gallon production +costs. There may be advantages to corn for if the demand for corn flour or oil is high they can choose their market.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

GTM has a lot of good points. I should mention it is a bit off topic though. (much of this discussion, not just his posts)

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about ethanol out there, many of which have been cleared up by the few good posters in this thread.

To try to make it simple, I'll sum it up:

In the SHORT TERM just about any vehicle will run acceptably on E85. Some better than others, but most should run OK. Mileage may suffer (usually 10-15%, though driving style makes a difference).

In the LONG TERM you may damage your car. Many rubbers as well as aluminum can be coroded by high concentrations of ethanol. This means parts all along your fuel system are at risk. You may also gain or lose performance, gain if you tune for it, lose if you don't.

Any gasoline powered vehicle CAN be made to run safely on ethanol, but parts will have to be upgraded and the engine will have to be tuned for it.

 

[out there]

Until our polititions are not owned by big business which is not representing "The American Dream" will we look at what other countries are doing.

i agree 100% with your statements, i just don't think that the us govt will take the steps necessary to make the things that need to happen happen. when fuel prices started going way up after the 9/11 attack and people were asking, "what if gas goes over $5 for many years?" i knew that they wouldn't, but for a different reason than a lot of other people. the govt probably doesn't see it, but the population can't afford to pay $5-7/gal for fuel, it would break them; with so many people already living paycheck to paycheck on the verge of poverty and working 1-3 jobs, paying twice as much for fuel would be the sack of potatoes to break the mules back. i won't even mention public transit.
of course, when people are underpaying on their credit cards (already on the rise), failing to pay on their loans and starting to file bankruptcy at a higher rate, the govt might take notice. BUT, notice that the entertainment industry (all of it), tobacco and alcohol haven't taken a hit, because people can't handle reality and are trying to escape it.

i think that the nation needs to experiment with and research alternative energy, but i'm also confident in the general feelings of apathy that people have (on average). i'm well aware that the technology is available to grow, harvest, process and use renewable energy sources efficiently; i'm also aware that big business in the us doesn't care, need i remind you of the mandate made by the us govt (during or after the oil shortage before i was born?)? the american car makers decided not to research making more fuel efficient cars and agreed to respond to the mandate with "it's not possible;" then honda came onto the scene with (if i remember correctly) cvcc

 

[GTM]

GTM has a lot of good points. I should mention it is a bit off topic though. (much of this discussion, not just his posts)

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about ethanol out there, many of which have been cleared up by the few good posters in this thread.

To try to make it simple, I'll sum it up:

In the SHORT TERM just about any vehicle will run acceptably on E85. Some better than others, but most should run OK. Mileage may suffer (usually 10-15%, though driving style makes a difference).

In the LONG TERM you may damage your car. Many rubbers as well as aluminum can be coroded by high concentrations of ethanol. This means parts all along your fuel system are at risk. You may also gain or lose performance, gain if you tune for it, lose if you don't.

Any gasoline powered vehicle CAN be made to run safely on ethanol, but parts will have to be upgraded and the engine will have to be tuned for it.

While some of my post may have been off topic it would be worth considering that the gasoline industry has not been at the forefront in supporting this. Who are the loybists trying to open the Artic reserve for another pipeline. Why should those who have collected $$$$$$ to promote every opportunity to keep this going. If he's limited to 500 words good luck.

It might be worth his while to call the factory and pose the questions to them since there is such a great following with the product. I'm not sure I am ready to endorse all of your long term doom and gloom painting. I am familiar with gasoline and diesel in aluminum tanks but not considered the effects of ethanol. Interesting though I've seen varying results within the same vehicle where 1 rubber part will be damaged yet another is perfectly good. Here on the west coast we have Arco who has used blends for a couple of decades.

I don't know if the turbo aspect has been covered. Loosing a good amount of smog equipment thus weight savings along with cost may be a plus factor.

If GM has a contract for 30 million smog pumps you know they are going to find a place to put them because they would not be needed for alcohol. With combustion temps down the formation of NOX may not be a concern. The poster has a lot of ground to cover, hopefully we can contribute ideas that will spur him into proper research on oil change frequency and dozens of other spins he can intorduce.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

...
BUT, notice that the entertainment industry (all of it), tobacco and alcohol haven't taken a hit, because people can't handle reality and are trying to escape it.

i think that the nation needs to experiment with and research alternative energy, but i'm also confident in the general feelings of apathy that people have (on average).
...
the american car makers decided not to research making more fuel efficient cars and agreed to respond to the mandate with "it's not possible;" then honda came onto the scene with (if i remember correctly) cvcc

AS JC said "it's the economy stupid". Interesting science there, when it's bad people will save and take big vacations, buy cars, homes, forced Air/heat, wall to wall carpet for the house. When good, they spend more on what they don't need, on clothes etc.

I'm not sure about the in word "apathy", I'm more at uninformed. I don't think that it's being stressed by the polititions and news media. It doesn't sell newspapers (who reads 'em thangs) unless it hits the pocketbook. Only the bravest would touch that with a 10' pole, it's the fear of loosing campaign donations and thus the public is cheated again.

Detroit took a bath and changed US car buying forever back then, the incredible thing is they have done it to us again. Import sales went crazy so they imposed higher import taxes so Detroit could compete with lost sales... what a joke. I believe Detroit can build anything they want, they hold the patents on machines used around the world and realize more from those than the cars they sell. They build a car and then convince the public this is what they need. Yet they still cling to the belief people won't complain with 10mpg. I realize this is an oversimplification but the mentality is still there and Government only assigns that they produce designated min quantaties of fuel efficient vehicles much less a cleaner fuel.

Soap box mode off.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

While some of my post may have been off topic it would be worth considering that the gasoline industry has not been at the forefront in supporting this. Who are the loybists trying to open the Artic reserve for another pipeline. Why should those who have collected $$$$$$ to promote every opportunity to keep this going. If he's limited to 500 words good luck.

It might be worth his while to call the factory and pose the questions to them since there is such a great following with the product. I'm not sure I am ready to endorse all of your long term doom and gloom painting. I am familiar with gasoline and diesel in aluminum tanks but not considered the effects of ethanol. Interesting though I've seen varying results within the same vehicle where 1 rubber part will be damaged yet another is perfectly good. Here on the west coast we have Arco who has used blends for a couple of decades.

I don't know if the turbo aspect has been covered. Loosing a good amount of smog equipment thus weight savings along with cost may be a plus factor.

If GM has a contract for 30 million smog pumps you know they are going to find a place to put them because they would not be needed for alcohol. With combustion temps down the formation of NOX may not be a concern. The poster has a lot of ground to cover, hopefully we can contribute ideas that will spur him into proper research on oil change frequency and dozens of other spins he can intorduce.

Cheers,
GTM

Oh, I agree completely. The fuel industry in this country is completely stagnant, because we are so used to cheap and plentiful gasoline.

My point about being off topic though was about the fact that he asked for details about running DSM's on ethanol, not necessarily the political and environmental agruments surrounding it. At least that's what I got from the question, it was a little vague.

Anyway, not trying to knock anyone. Whether it's on topic or not it's a good discussion.