Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[Keshav]

just my .02 on the environment debate

E85 contributes nothing to global warming, a good thing. The reason is that the CO2 released was in the environment to begin with, so you are never adding new gasses. It is environmentally neutral.

The fact that it does not have as much energy as gasoline is countered by the fact that you can extract a higher percentage of energy from the fuel by using more boost. Saab is already selling E85 cars that get the same milage with whichever gasoline-to-ethanol ratio you use. It just dials in more or less boost to compensate. The power difference is about 25% in favor of E85 for that car.

I'm going to start using E85 as soon as it is available in Seattle.

 

[raped]

What could be done is if you have a wideband you can change what type of gas its reading, so you can change the output so that stoich is 12:1. Then you just increase fuel to the computer. This would fake out the computer and run more fuel then it normally would.

-Seth

not true. keep in mind your wideband doesnt read real air fuel ratio it reads oxygen in relation to stoich. This means that if your car was able to meter air fuel ration just from the O2 sensor alone you would need need to change the tune of your car if you switched to ethanol, methanol or any other fuel (oversimplified). what I am trying to say is that on your wideband stoich is read as 14.7:1 for any fuel even if its actual stoichometric ratio is not 14.7:1. The wideband is calibrated for gasoline.

 

[MNGSX]

Alot of misinformation here....

Read this..

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1625600&postcount=30

And this.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199721&highlight=Ethanol

 

[raped]

better explained but more complicated:

Of course, when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. Lambda is defined as actual AFR/stoich AFR. It's a ratio. In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel. The same would be true for other Lambda values when running closed loop at WOT using a wideband. The engine would run at the tuned Lambda and everything would be fine. Open loop systems would need to be retuned for alcohol blends though.

Until next time... Keep On Tuning!

-Innovate Motorsports

from the page posted above

 

[MNGSX]

I am considering a different AWD E85 project... Once complete the DSM will probably be sold...

This involves a surplus APU... A small aviation gas turbine generator set and electric motors... You can tweek the Fadec to run it on anyting from the original jet A to diesel (inc biodiesel) or alcohol... I'd run it on 98% ethanol...

With about 3x a gas engines tq and a peak Hp rating of 8 to 10 times that of its continous rating four motors over 20hp are just wicked. Minimal driveline weight, cost and efficiency are why I am not considering driving the wheels right off a turboshaft.... A large turboshaft like that which drives a prop or a rotor would guzzle fuel like crazy at idle when cruising.. Its much more efficient to use a smaller one and max it out..

 

[Spoolin98]

Ethanol is produced by converting the starch content of biomass. In case you do not already know, biomass is organic matter such as plants and animals. The most common is agricultural residues, wood waste, and municipal waste. Back to ethanol, yeast and heat are used to break down complex sugars into more simple sugars, creating ethanol. The reason you will not find 100% ethanol at the pump is obvious, every drunk in town would be there trying to catch a buzz.

Ethanol Vs Gasoline
* Ethanol's vapor pressure is low
* Ethanol has a low heating value (80,000Btus/Gal)
* Ethanol is biodegradable

 

[JiggahMan]

Here is what I could find:


So I am corrected, there is a slight loss in fuel economy. However, it is not much. Assuming you are getting 24 mpg already, a 15% loss in economy would net 20.4 mgp, which is still pretty good.

Again, I think mileage is more dependant on driving style and other conditions, as stated above. You will also see a 20+% drop in economy if you drive around with your foot on the floor with normal gas as well.

Chris

So that means you're losing 52 miles per tank, $117. Multiply that by four if you fill up once a week, and you're looking at 208 miles and $468 EVERY MONTH. That's a HUGE loss in fuel economy for us poor folk.

 

[wingnutt]

So that means you're losing 52 miles per tank, $117. Multiply that by four if you fill up once a week, and you're looking at 208 miles and $468 EVERY MONTH. That's a HUGE loss in fuel economy for us poor folk.

HOLY CRAP...$468.00 to go 208 miles??? exactly how much are you paying for gas?

 

[tstkl]

So that means you're losing 52 miles per tank, $117. Multiply that by four if you fill up once a week, and you're looking at 208 miles and $468 EVERY MONTH. That's a HUGE loss in fuel economy for us poor folk.

care to explain where you get those numbers from? last time I checked, to fill up my tank didnt cost 117, so how could running ethonal jack the price up that much?

 

[WMD]

So that means you're losing 52 miles per tank, $117. Multiply that by four if you fill up once a week, and you're looking at 208 miles and $468 EVERY MONTH. That's a HUGE loss in fuel economy for us poor folk.

eh, its just a mistake, no biggie.
But another problem with ethanol is it speeds up corrosion between dissimilar metals. So down the line this would prove to be problem with our cars and many others. There would be far more corrosion in the runners and it would cause problems in the combustion chamber since the sleeve is steel and the head is aluminum.
In Brazil they have run 100% ethanol for years. Which is good to self sustain their economy, but they have destroyed thousands of cars in the process.

 

[Spoolin98]

eh, its just a mistake, no biggie.
But another problem with ethanol is it speeds up corrosion between dissimilar metals. So down the line this would prove to be problem with our cars and many others. There would be far more corrosion in the runners and it would cause problems in the combustion chamber since the sleeve is steel and the head is aluminum.
In Brazil they have run 100% ethanol for years. Which is good to self sustain their economy, but they have destroyed thousands of cars in the process.

Actually Brazil uses 97% ethanol and 3% gasoline to keep people from drinking the ethanol.

 

[ISUJakey]

but they have destroyed thousands of cars in the process.

Prove it. I love how much ethanol information is "thrown around" without any sources listed. What's even more entertaining is how everyone that rips on ethanol just about always neglects to provide any sources for their information. I suppose you all like to listen to that f*cking idiot from Cornell who also rips on ethanol by using outdated research. If you all would like, I can do some digging where even the USDA rips on that idiot's work. I am from Iowa and an ethanol supporter, but I also realize it is not perfect. However, I am not about to listen to you people rip on ethanol without backing up what you have to say. So when you actually prove your "information," please let everyone know.

 

[WMD]

Actually Brazil uses 97% ethanol and 3% gasoline to keep people from drinking the ethanol.

Actually , they use trace amounts of gas to lubracate the fule injection system. But i guess it helps to provent people from drinking it.

Prove it. I love how much ethanol information is "thrown around" without any sources listed. What's even more entertaining is how everyone that rips on ethanol just about always neglects to provide any sources for their information. I suppose you all like to listen to that f*cking idiot from Cornell who also rips on ethanol by using outdated research. If you all would like, I can do some digging where even the USDA rips on that idiot's work. I am from Iowa and an ethanol supporter, but I also realize it is not perfect. However, I am not about to listen to you people rip on ethanol without backing up what you have to say. So when you actually prove your "information," please let everyone know

This information was given to me by a professor with a PhD in chemistry who is working on alternative fuel sources. My father who also has a degree in chemistry told me this while doing his own research and study for his degree. So I guess if you want me to prove it with actual facts to show you it will take some time. I tend to believe people who spent 12+ years attending a university to understand and work on things exactly like this. And no, I think it is a smart idea to think about, because this problem is real and cannot be hidden anymore. We should find the answer now, instead of screwing our children and theirs because we where to lazy to find a renewable source of energy. So don't rip on me anymore. Jeez.

My education is not based on propaganda. That's an insult to me. Some thing you learn over time is you dont listen to A: government head figures, B: the media, since their basically controlled by the gonvernment and C: bias people.

 

[MNGSX]

It bypasses a liq tax in the us so racers here run E98...

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/55019_final.htm

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217115&highlight=E85

 

[WMD]

This is a report published by the national renewable engery labratory
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/32206.pdf
page 20,(page nine in actual article)
they specifically say ethanol has a corrosive nature and the Brazilians have been doing this for years. If you don’t believe me, believe the years of research these hard working scientists have provided for you.

 

[MNGSX]

Well drag racers have been using methanol for years and its like 100x more corosive than ethanol..

The solution is easy and in the final paper I posted..

I have no corrosion in my fuel rail due to anodizing...

The FPR, pump and lines are built to withstand METHANOL... therefore ethanol does not even phase them..

E85 gives particularly good results in turbocharged cars due to its high octane [2]. It allows the ECU to run more favorable ignition timing and leaner fuel mixtures than are possible on normal premium gasoline. Users who have experimented with converting OBDII (i.e., On-Board Diagnostic System 2, that is for 1996 model year and later) turbocharged cars to run on E85 have had very good results.......

Fuel economy does not drop as much as might be expected in turbocharged engines based on the specific energy content of E85 compared to gasoline, in contrast to the previously-reported reduction of 23.7% reduction in a 60:40 blend of gasoline to E85 for one non-turbocharged, fuel-injected, non-FFV.............

The reason for this non-intuitive difference is that the turbocharged engine seems especially well-suited for operation on E85, for it in effect has a variable compression ratio capability, which is exactly what is needed to accommodate varying ethanol and gasoline ratios that occur in practice in an FFV. At light load cruise, the turbocharged engine operates as a low compression engine. Under high load and high manifold boost pressures, such as accelerating to pass or merge onto a highway, it makes full use of the higher octane of E85. It appears that due to the better ignition timing and better engine performance on a fuel of 100 octane, the driver spends less time at high throttle openings, and can cruise in a higher gear and at lower throttle openings than is possible on 100% premium gasoline. In daily commute driving, mostly highway, 100% E85 in a turbocharged car can hit fuel mileages of over 90% of the normal gasoline fuel economy. Tests indicate approximately a 5% increase in engine performance is possible by switching to E85 fuel in high performance cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Incidentally 100% methanol is good for only a 10% hp increase.... So I use ethanol and settle for 5% gains. much cheaper fuel.. Lots of pumps.. here anyway... Easy to convert etc...


I look at alot of different sources... Get ideas.. Then run my own tests.. This stuff is awesome on a turbo car..

I payed $1.49 a gallon a couple weeks ago and I run over 30psi on it... Try that with any other pump gas..

 

[Spoolin98]

Actually , they use trace amounts of gas to lubracate the fule injection system. But i guess it helps to provent people from drinking it.



This information was given to me by a professor with a PhD in chemistry who is working on alternative fuel sources. My father who also has a degree in chemistry told me this while doing his own research and study for his degree. So I guess if you want me to prove it with actual facts to show you it will take some time. I tend to believe people who spent 12+ years attending a university to understand and work on things exactly like this. And no, I think it is a smart idea to think about, because this problem is real and cannot be hidden anymore. We should find the answer now, instead of screwing our children and theirs because we where to lazy to find a renewable source of energy. So don’t rip on me anymore. Jeez.

My education is not based on propaganda. That’s an insult to me. Some thing you learn over time is you dont listen to A: government head figures, B: the media, since their basically controlled by the gonvernment and C: bias people.

Do you honestly think that the Brazilian fuel suppliers care about lubricating their customers fuel systems or are willing to spend extra money to lubricate customers fuel systems? I highly doubt it, but if you could buy a gallon of 100% ethanol for the a fraction of the price of a handle of liquor, the alcohol business will have a major problem on their hands. It is all about money, I also was told this by a professor/engineer at my school. The lubrication is just an added bonus, they add the 3% gasoline to keep people from drinking it. Who is "we" that are too lazy to find a renewable resource? What do you think ethanol is? It is made from biomass, a renewable resource. Besides biomass as a resource, what about geothermal, wind, hydroelectric, tidal, and solar? What other renewable resources would you like to find? There is only so much we can do as science progresses. For example, biodiesel, diesel fuel made from vegetable oil. This is not an attack on you, I am just simply trying to get my point across.

 

[MNGSX]

In MN it is made from anything from corn byproducts to beer brewery waste products.

Dairy byproducts like cheese plant waste are being used too... There are alot of things that can be fermented with various enzymes.. There is one experimental enzyme that can produce ethanol from waste vegetable oil. Heh I converted my boses ford PSD to run on WVO.... It starts and shuts down on #2 petro but switches to filtered waste vegitable oil once the tank heater gets the stuff hot.. Its like crude biodiesel...

Basically we can turn our trash into fuel...

Anyway there are even some bioengineered enzymes for ethanol
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/06/new_enzyme_for_.html

The cost of it as fuel will continue to drop as it becomes more efficient and new feedstocks (starch) and enzymes can be utilized.

 

[WMD]

Do you honestly think that the Brazilian fuel suppliers care about lubricating their customers fuel systems or are willing to spend extra money to lubricate customers fuel systems? I highly doubt it, but if you could buy a gallon of 100% ethanol for the a fraction of the price of a handle of liquor, the alcohol business will have a major problem on their hands. It is all about money, I also was told this by a professor/engineer at my school. The lubrication is just an added bonus, they add the 3% gasoline to keep people from drinking it. Who is "we" that are too lazy to find a renewable resource? What do you think ethanol is? It is made from biomass, a renewable resource. Besides biomass as a resource, what about geothermal, wind, hydroelectric, tidal, and solar? What other renewable resources would you like to find? There is only so much we can do as science progresses. For example, biodiesel, diesel fuel made from vegetable oil. This is not an attack on you, I am just simply trying to get my point across.

By not lubing the fuel system it destroys that part of the vehicle.
Ethanol may seem renewable right now but there is a problem. They're asking farmers to give up their stems (whatever their called) from the corn to provide a sufficient amount of biomass to make a decent amount of ethanol. But what happens after a couple of years? That biomass is not returned to the soil to fertilize it so more corn can be grown. This will cause the field to lack sufficient minerals to basically grow anything. Then we'll be up a shit creek with no paddle. And if they cut down the trees to gain biomass, well that's a not a feasible idea since it takes a long time to grow them. But wood pulp from the lumber industry would help.
Yes I know what ethanol is "CH3-CH2-OH" happy.
And we is meant in as the populous of this planet.
"geothermal, wind, hydroelectric, tidal, and solar" are not feasable solutions for a vehicle, but can be implemented into other areas with success.
Oh and it was an attack since it was written to question my intelligence and credibility. Just be a man and say it was, I'm no fool and I can understand the undertone.
You have a very jaded vision, im not going to argue anymore.

 

[eclipsh]

By not lubing the fuel system it destroys that part of the vehicle.
Ethanol may seem renewable right now but there is a problem. They're asking farmers to give up their stems (whatever their called) from the corn to provide a sufficient amount of biomass to make a decent amount of ethanol. But what happens after a couple of years? That biomass is not returned to the soil to fertilize it so more corn can be grown. This will cause the field to lack sufficient minerals to basically grow anything. Then we'll be up a shit creek with no paddle. And if they cut down the trees to gain biomass, well that's a not a feasible idea since it takes a long time to grow them. But wood pulp from the lumber industry would help.
Yes I know what ethanol is "CH3-CH2-OH" happy.
And we is meant in as the populous of this planet.
"geothermal, wind, hydroelectric, tidal, and solar" are not feasable solutions for a vehicle, but can be implemented into other areas with success.
Oh and it was an attack since it was written to question my intelligence and credibility. Just be a man and say it was, I'm no fool and I can understand the undertone.
You have a very jaded vision, im not going to argue anymore.

Actually, for field restoration you can use the old fashioned way we've been using for a few hundred years now, crop rotation. You can plant things like clover and turnips and graze livestock on it to revitalize the soil from both the plants and the *ahem* naturally spread fertilizer of the livestock. We've been doing that since the early 18th century but it has slowed down due to industrialized super-farms.

Also, geothermal, wind, hydroelectric, tidal and solar energies can be used to charge up hybrid cars if they are simply plugged in during non-peak hours of demand. So


EDIT: EEK, just realized how incredibly tangentical this is from the original post. I am excited to hear about using ethanol in our turbo cars but I'd like to know more about the corrosion and how to prevent it.

 

[MNGSX]

Ethanol may seem renewable right now but there is a problem. They’re asking farmers to give up their stems (whatever their called) from the corn to provide a sufficient amount of biomass to make a decent amount of ethanol. .

They dont use the stalks..

The word I used was feedstocks.. stock as in something you have in volume and feed since its food for the fermenting enzyme..

Beer brewery waste and waste from many other products with a Ag origin are what ethanol is made from.. The field will get planted and managed the same w or w/o ethanol production.. We just use the byproducts not good enough to eat for the enzymes to convert into ethanol..

 

[eclipsh]

Actually, for cellulose ethanol they CAN and do use the stalks from corn and wheat. You are right that other sources of cellulose can be used though. Recycled paper and cardboard for example. Anything that has plant pulp is viable.

 

[MNGSX]

Actually, for cellulose ethanol they CAN and do use the stalks from corn and wheat. You are right that other sources of cellulose can be used though. Recycled paper and cardboard for example. Anything that has plant pulp is viable.

Much of what I see is starch based as opposed to cellulose.. I think per volume of materials the ethanol yeild is higher.

hops and barely waste from pigs eye...

from "tater" waste..

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/potato.htm

The Grand Forks, North Dakota, potato processing plants generate over 1.7 million pounds of waste per day. This potato waste can be converted into 8.7 million gallons of fuel-grade ethanol per year.

"spilled beer"

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/25/01-358749.htm

coolest and cleanest

http://www.e3biofuels.com/index2.html

The manure from the livestock is handled by an on-site waste management facility and turned into biogas. This biogas powers the ethanol production process,

The ethanol production byproducts are 40% of the cattle feed too!

 

[Dark_Horse]

Not to mention the increase in pollutants during refinement/production over gasoline.

The whole argument that E85 uses more power than it creates is BS. When you run straight gasoline, do you factor in the cost of getting the oil out of the ground and shipping it over here, refining it into gasoline and trucking it to the gas stations? I think not

But for those nay-sayers, lets figure it in. It takes 34,000BTU of natural gas to create one gallon of ethanol. 34,000BTU is equal to .3 gallons of gasoline (1 gallon of gasoline contains 115,000BTU).

So .3 gallons of gas per gallon of ethanol combined with only using 15% gasoline in your vehicle is only .45 gallons of gas burned in total for every gallon of E85 you burn. I believe that's a savings of .55 gallons of gas.

Ok, so you get 20% less MPG, since you're only using .15 gallons of gas in E85, that equates to .03 gallons (.15*.2=.03). Add them all up, we come to .48 gallons of total gasoline consumption per mile driven. Seems like a good way to reduce our dependancy on foreign oil. Unless my thinking/math is wrong.

 

[weith1111]

There's a lot of good reading on this topic, here's one:
http://atbozzo.blogspot.com/2005/09/missing-field-for-corn-stalks.html

I'm not taking sides just yet, as politicians are excellent at making numbers do what they want them to. Is it worse? Is it better? We will find out in the next 5 years. Am I going to put all my money in stocks for e85 affiliated companies? Hell no.

It's an interesting project for a DSMer for the hell of it, and to see what power can be made, but as far as it replacing gasoline? I won't be concerned if my new car is e85 compliant.