Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[GTM]

My point about being off topic though was about the fact that he asked for details about running DSM's on ethanol, not necessarily the political and environmental agruments surrounding it. At least that's what I got from the question, it was a little vague.

Anyway, not trying to knock anyone. Whether it's on topic or not it's a good discussion.

You are right it's become fractured perhaps because of the lack of any real history from DSM owners. This in part is because the fuel is not easily found hence the practicality of long trips or driving across country would be next to impossible.
.............

Setting asside possible reaction to rubber, metal, and plastics, my guess is larger injectors or longer injection times would be necessary. With a lower BTU output would be the need to possibly increase boost just from a drivability standpoint. If you had not driven a DSM using gasoline then the power output might seem normal. However, having a noticable loss when changing to a lower BTU fuel would be a psycological dissapointment.

I've not studied the properties of alcohol fuels so cannot address flame propogation speeds such as subsonic or supersonic and how this would influence performance and tuning. Cam/valve/ignition timing may need to be changed, spark plug heat value, thermostatic control of ideal operating temps if alcohol is to be used exclusively.

We know it's viable for many "formula" cars use alcohol but those engines are running at 15,000+ rpm which supports that it's a much faster burning fuel thus the stroke needs to be shortened.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[eclipsh]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199721&highlight=Ethanol

Also search for threads on ethanol by MNGSX. He's done a lot of research on it.

Lots of good info here. Apperntly you just need to have your fuel rail anodized to protect it from the ethanol and upgrade the fuel system/tune.

I'm wondering if 680cc injectors and a 255 are large enough to run ethanol and have decent power still. I'm thinking DSM Link and a wideband should work for all the tuning.

 

[out there]

Interesting science there, when it's bad people will save and take big vacations, buy cars, homes, forced Air/heat, wall to wall carpet for the house. When good, they spend more on what they don't need, on clothes etc.

i'm not sure if you're taking my side or criticizing me with this statement... :shrug:, but i will say that i have very little faith in the financial sense of americans
one big supporter of this idea is what i'm currently studying in one of my german classes: the german-speaking world in the 19th century. why do i bring this up? look at the beautiful architecture in vienna, the entire ringstraße, absolutely gorgeous; it was almost all built in the 19th century when the area was undergoing much turmoil. romanticism was changing the way people were thinking, philosophers were bringing up new ideas and subjects that people hadn't thought about before (nietszche, kierkegaard, marx, etc), and people were disillusioning themselves with literature, art, music, architecture and the like because they didn't want to acknowledge the situation they were in; a similar thing seems to be happening now; people appear to be doing anything to escape the reality of their problems by buying buying buying, even though they can't really afford it.
a few months ago i read an article about the increased rate of people falling behind on their credit cards, i think the % roughly doubled from 1.4% (or something like that); like i said before, higher energy costs in this country will break it

 

[timm98gst]

here's a good link
http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

You are right it's become fractured perhaps because of the lack of any real history from DSM owners. This in part is because the fuel is not easily found hence the practicality of long trips or driving across country would be next to impossible.
.............

GTM

Minnesota has 1/3 of the E85 pumps in the country so you can drive around here all you want

 

[GTM]

Minnesota has 1/3 of the E85 pumps in the country so you can drive around here all you want

Ha, and Calif has three, two of which are on military bases and may be part of the Pacific Missle range... Hmmm, smog equipped rockets. Good luck getting to Arizona...

Off topic again, interesting that we still have oil fields here in Los Angeles with running pumps but a greater number inactive. When gas prices go up you will see more of these pumps that haven't moved for 5 years are suddenly pressed into service. It makes you wonder if they are holding back and then crying poor or is the cost of pumping practical at evelated prices because they are just playing the numbers.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Dark_Horse]

i have tried e85 (when it first became available in the area) and found it not beneficial.
1) alcohol has significantly less energy to be released than gasoline, so you will have greatly reduced mileage. normally i trim my low-throttle to -30%; when using 1/2 92 octane and 1/2 e85 i had to increase fuel up to 22% just to get it idle normally.
2) alcohol does have a higher octane value
3) alcohol is less expensive for the consumer (right now), but reduced mileage means you'll be spending the same amount
4) alcohol costs a lot to produce. specifically corn: all the farm equipment that is used to grow, harvest and produce runs on gasoline or diesel, as does the processing machinery (which is also electrical. simple science tells you that energy can't be created or destroyed; in the production of ethanol, energy is converted into waste, the amount of energy that comes out of the production is anywhere between 33% and 70% of what is put into the production of it.

in short, though it costs less, you'll be buying more because it contains less energy than gasoline. -example- no matter how you look at it, your car weighs 3000lbs and requires the same amount of energy to move 100 miles, you can use 4 gallons of gasoline or you can use 5-6 gallons of ethanol and ruin your fuel system at the same time. maybe it's just me, but i would much rather NOT destroy my fuel system while not saving money

You may be using a bit more, but if the price difference is great enough, your pocket book will thank you.

There are many WRX-ers in Colorado that use E-85 on a daily basis. Their findings show that they only lose a few MPG due to needing less throttle opening for cruising. They strapped a few of their cars on the dyno with and without E-85 and the E-85 made more mid range torque...Hence the ability to cruise with less throttle opening.

Also, about the energy being wasted in Ethanol production from corn. It's true that if you factor in every single iota of work, it creates negative energy to make Ethanol. But what everyone is failing to realize is that the corn is going to be grown anyway even if it sits and rots in the field. So including the farmers meals, gas in the tractors etc doesn't make sense. In one of the links above, I included all of the energy (minus gas to power tractors, farmers meals etc) that goes into making Ethanol and it came out that E-85 saved gasoline.

If you look hard enough and include enough energy input you can make any alternative energy seem like a bad idea.

 

[out there]

please, post proof of them doing this; i have checked several forums, the general consensus everywhere is the same as it is here: don't do it without reworking the entire fuel system.
in reworking the fuel system to withstand ethanol and modifying the ecu/signal you will spend more than you will save

 

[eclipsh]

please, post proof of them doing this; i have checked several forums, the general consensus everywhere is the same as it is here: don't do it without reworking the entire fuel system.
in reworking the fuel system to withstand ethanol and modifying the ecu/signal you will spend more than you will save

Ahh, but remember, Oil is a finite resource, cellulose is not. New celulose ethanol technologies are actually more efficient than corn/grain ethanol is.

http://www.iogen.ca/

So it isn't just a short-term, self-interested pocket book decision. It's a long-term, sustainable, environmentally friendly decision.

 

[Dark_Horse]

please, post proof of them doing this; i have checked several forums, the general consensus everywhere is the same as it is here: don't do it without reworking the entire fuel system.
in reworking the fuel system to withstand ethanol and modifying the ecu/signal you will spend more than you will save

Here you go. WRX Using E85

Though I'd like to point out that to do this properly you should at an absolute bare minimum:
1. have your fuel rail anodized
2. buy an ethanol tolerant FPR (If you choose to run a fuel pump that requires one)
3. Larger ethanol tolerant injectors
4. Larger fuel pump

Since most DSM people eventually upgrade to larger injectors & fuel pump, there's no reason to add these expenses to your E85 conversion costs.

 

[out there]

based on what i read on www.wrxtuners.com , it sounds like the fuel pump is a lot more expensive (to name just one extra large expense). i agree that this is something someone who races can realistically look into doing for their car... but this thread refers to mainly average people.
i read a bit of the page you posted, and i'm bookmarking it for reading at a later date when i have a lot less homework, quite interesting.
i've actually considered changing over to running e85 in my dsm right now... but the cost is still a bit high.

 

[Dark_Horse]

Here's more E85 reading for you. This article contradicts some of the suggestions members on here have such as anodizing the fuel rail.
Turbo Mustang running E85 for 9 months with aluminum fuel rail with no corrosion problems.

Turbo Mustang

 

[eclipsh]

So Dark Horse, how do you know if your injectors are E85 compatable? How about a Walbro 255 pump? Is it sufficient/tolerant?

I'd seriously consider modding my car to run it since I'm working on sustainability issues for my undergrad work. I'm just curious as to if my current mods will work with ethanol (I'm adding 680cc RX7 injectors and an EPROM chip soon.)

 

[out there]

i would read the first link he posted. if you haven't read it yet, a wrx owner describes in detail what he's done with his car to run e85 reliably. i'm considering it just because e85 is popping up all over the place around here. if that turbo mustang thing holds true... it might be something worth considering, especially since saving money anywhere that i don't need to spend it appeals to me

 

[Dark_Horse]

So Dark Horse, how do you know if your injectors are E85 compatable? How about a Walbro 255 pump? Is it sufficient/tolerant?

Walbro says their fuel pumps are not ethanol tolerant, however the distributors of the Walbro line say they work with ethanol just fine. On WRX link, that person has been running a 255lph Walbro for nearly 2 years now with no problems. Supra pump is definitely ethanol tolerant.
As for the injectors, you'd need to contact the manufacturer and ask. I know for a fact that FIC injectors are ethanol tolerant.

Technically all injectors made after the late 80's are probably ethanol tolerant since most states began putting 10% ethanol in their gas at that time. The link to the WRX running E85 talks about the reasons why most vehicles can run E85 with no major problems.

 

[eclipsh]

Yeah, I read through that file this morning (you sent it to me a long time ago actually.)

So the only way to really know if my '85 RX7 680cc injectors are compatible is to contact Denso? It certainly seems my pump and injectors are big enough for the fuel needs. AEM doesn't say anything on their website about their FPR's compatability with ethanol but it is manufactured out of aluminum if that matters.

So is DSM Link or a SAFC a better bet for tuning with E85? I have no experience with either. It'd be nice to be able to just flip between settings if you couldn't get E85 and had to run Premium. I just paid 2.919/gal for premium today, I think the extra $800 in mods for ethanol would pay for itself in a hurry! (ok, so about 55-60 tanks if ethanol is at 1.60)

 

[eclipsh]

I did find one other problem for this mod, no fueling stations within 100 miles.

 

[Dark_Horse]

So the only way to really know if my '85 RX7 680cc injectors are compatible is to contact Denso? It certainly seems my pump and injectors are big enough for the fuel needs. AEM doesn't say anything on their website about their FPR's compatability with ethanol but it is manufactured out of aluminum if that matters.

So is DSM Link or a SAFC a better bet for tuning with E85? I have no experience with either. It'd be nice to be able to just flip between settings if you couldn't get E85 and had to run Premium. I just paid 2.919/gal for premium today, I think the extra $800 in mods for ethanol would pay for itself in a hurry! (ok, so about 55-60 tanks if ethanol is at 1.60)

You will either have to contact the manufacturer or search the internet to find out if all of your fuel components are ethanol tolerant.

As for DSMlink -vs- SAFC, my vote is DSMlink hands down even if you never touch E85. It will give you the ability to increase/decrease timing on top of the air/fuel management so you can fully utilize the extra octane in E85. It's also much easier to use and will allow you to run up to 1800cc injectors instead of the SAFC limited 720cc.

In the WRX thread though, some of them were using an SAFC, so that will work too. If you already have an SAFC and a logger, give that a shot. It's definitely cheaper, that's for sure.

On a positive note, I was reading the newer posts on Nasioc and after 2 years and 500+ gallons of E85 through a "stock" WRX fuel system (he has a Walbro 255 and Sti 550cc injectors), no deterioration of the rubber or fuel lines was found. He took his stock fuel line out, dissected it, and it looked just like a new factory one did. His injector seals were also in perfect condition, no fuel pump failure and no injector failure. This is all on equipment that is not labeled as ethanol tolerant.

This plus many other reports leads me to believe that the corrosive nature of E85 on stock fuel systems has been grossly exaggerated.

 

[Dark_Horse]

I did find one other problem for this mod, no fueling stations within 100 miles.

Maybe if you lived in a real state.

*edit* Just realized I too live in Colorado.

 

[out there]

just another reason to move to fargo... the middle of nowhere

 

[AgntorangeDSM]

well i just wanna say that my laser teacher who happens to be a huge e85 freak!!! he tells me to run e85 and it runs around roughly 112-115 octane according to him, also he tells me that it will never pre. det.!! i don't really know a whole lot but if you need info i bet i could get for our dsm's from him!!!

 

[Dark_Horse]

Don't give misinformation. Your laser teacher obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

E85 is not 112 - 115octane. It will predetonate, if it didn't, why aren't all the top fuel dragsters using it instead of "rocket fuel"? (I believe top fuel uses nitro-methane)

Read all of the links that are posted on this thread, that will give you all the info you need to run E85.

 

[AgntorangeDSM]

its not false information! so back off! they is alot more intelligent then you are!

 

[AgntorangeDSM]

try ethanol.org it varies from winter to summer here winter is roughly 105 110 octane in the summer its 112 or so.

 

[Dark_Horse]

The blending octane of ETHANOL is on avg ~113. Exact numbers given are different depending on where you get your information from.

The octane of E85, which this thread is about, is 100 - 105 depending on the concentration of ethanol that's in the blend.

During the winter, the amount of ethanol in E85 is less than in the summer due to hard starts in cold weather. Hence the reason the gas stations (at least here in CO) label E85 pumps as no less than 100 octane.