Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[StockBiotchs]

So your car defies the laws of physics?

You understand that there is less energy in E85 right?

The only way you could have seen an increase in performance is if the car was knocking beforehand, or if the new fuel leaned it out. Adding E85 to a car that's running fine will only lower your economy and power. Period.

Adding E85 to a car and then upping boost and timing, of course will see an improvement in performance.

that is why you need to burn more.... and that equals more power that gas....

If you simply add E85, then I agree with your statement. I will add that is not what I have done. My car is not running lean !

do some of your own research, on NA motors E85 always makes more torque, that must be from less power in the fuel.

I don't know who you are, as you don't know me. Don't continue to insult me, because you disagree with me. I don't pretend to know all the science, all I know is my car is faster on E85 blend than it is on gas.....

 

[tkelly27]

Why do you think Diesels get such good mileage? Stoich. for them is much higher, or more energy in the fuel.

I won't argue that there is more energy in the fuel, that much is a fact. However, the Diesel cycle is inherently more efficient at using that energy than the Otto (gasoline) cycle is.
Diesel cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again, if I remember right, it's the 2-3 that adds to the total area under the curve increasing the efficiency over the Otto cycle which does not have that step over.
Ideal Otto Cycle

There is also the fact that the fuel is a lubricant, that it's directly injected into the engine, etc. etc. It is true that certain fuels inherently contain more energy, however that's not always the complete story when it comes to power production and/or efficiency.

 

[Black99gst]

wait! i'm still excited to here the HEB on Parmer has E85... i may have to stop by their sometime this week... need gas anyways....

E85's octain is almost that of race gas, you will notice a LARGE decress in knock aswell as an increase in timing... everything we like to see... nothing we dont (accept it eats rubber over time)

replacing the lines is not something that is required, i know of several DSMs that have been running E85 on factory fuel lines for EXTENDED periods of time with NO problems with the lines of the filter...

 

[miklaver]

e85 is great stuff and it will absorb water and that is when it is bad for you

 

[Black99gst]

e85 is great stuff and it will absorb water and that is when it is bad for you

i guess i dont see how this would be bad??? if their WAS water in my fuel system, i would want it to be awayed with!

awayed? is that a word?

 

[DougR]

E85 FTW!

 

[JeffGST]

E85 is extremely knock resistant. That is all I ever put in my Talon. I've run 136 MPH in the 1/4 mile with ethanol.

Water condensation is a very real problem with E85. It's not a problem that it will puddle up water in your fuel lines. The real problem is water condensation in your oil. Every DSM has a very small percentage of blow by through the piston rings, and this is returned to the valve cover through the PCV system. Water will accumulate in the valve cover baffles and in a oil catch can MUCH quicker with Ethanol than gasoline. I have to dump my catch can weekly of all the water that accumulates there.

Most water vapor evaporates when the motor is on, but still in the cooler months of the year it will puddle up. Change your oil often when using E85.

 

[blackrosenova40]

should i reword this? The higher the octane the slower the burn. Less energy. A car that runs fine and is then switched to higher octane will see a decrease in performance.

Why do you think Diesels get such good mileage? Stoich. for them is much higher, or more energy in the fuel.

Stoich Gasoline-14.7
Stoich Diesel-14.6

 

[JusMX141]

Yess I pump in 12.5 gallons of 93( this is after driving for 3 days with the Low fuel Light on, this puts me at Aprox 1 gallon of fuel left in the tank). then drive 15 minutes away to another gas station ( Its Aprox 15-20 miles away) and pump in
3 - 3.8 gallons of E85. Depending on how fast my right foot gets me there.

You're fortunate enough to have decently-priced E85 in your area. My closest E85 dealer is 15-20 minutes away, and it sells for a whopping $2.95-$2.99 per gallon. WTF

In my area, regular 87 pump gas is currently in the $3.19 range; so even cars that are equipped with a FlexFuel system would be at a huge disadvantage running E85 because of the increased comsumption. I realize us DSM'ers are looking for no-knock benefits of E85, but your average Minivan driver could care less...they're looking at $ savings. What they don't realize is that $2.99/gal E85 ends up costing them MORE than if they were using regular 87 pump gas once you factor in additional consumption!

At that rate, where's the incentive for your average FlexFuel-driving Joe to use E85?

 

[2gGSX]

That seems to be really high for E85. In St. Louis gas is currently 2.99 for 87 octane, and my E85 station is selling it for 2.47/gallon.

 

[500orbust]

With the probems fixed, I put it back on our dyno and got some great results....513 hp and 423tq. Power comes in 250rpm earlier, even with the wastegate opening and closing before full boost. With the same settings on my profec b, boost went from 29 to 32. I was at 90% IDC before and now Im at 105%. Im also running 10 degrees on the top and mid to low 11 afr's.


I tried to use my cell phone to video the runs, but the quality is really poor. I only have a decent one of the tach and speedo. The test and tune is next week and I will post results as soon as I can.

 

[Burnett03]

Umm ok cool? A mod list would be helpful

 

[absolute_DSM]

Look in his profile.

Are the 780s what you used here?

I love E85.

 

[500orbust]

Sorry, its updated. Here is a breakdown

-10 rail
-6 feed
walbro 255
aeromotive fpr
1150'cc injectors
aem ems
stock 6 bolt
sbr smim
sbr fmic
act2600 6puck
act flywheel
dnp t4 ts manifold
44mm tial wastegate
t4 ts dual ball bearing 61mm p trim

 

[eboy0]

Sorry, its updated. Here is a breakdown

-10 rail
-6 feed
walbro 255
aeromotive fpr
1150'cc injectors
aem ems
stock 6 bolt
sbr smim
sbr fmic
act2600 6puck
act flywheel
dnp t4 ts manifold
44mm tial wastegate
t4 ts dual ball bearing 61mm p trim

Impressive, stock 6 bolt...

 

[gsxtasy]

What kind of IDC's are you seeing with the 1150's?

 

[JayRolla]

What kind of IDC's are you seeing with the 1150's?

I would also like to know?

 

[500orbust]

they are 105% around 6000 rpm

 

[kiddsm95]

I have a few questions about using E85. Everything that I’ve read on this forum has confused me thoroughly, because some say you need to change to stainless steel fuel lines while others say the OEM fuel lines will suffice. The majority of the E85 users also seem to be running 1000cc+ injectors and/or dual 255 lph fuel pumps and run extremely large turbos.

My questions are: Can anyone validate that it is ok to run E85 in DSM’s without corrosive side effects to the fuel lines in the long run? Will running E85 in conjunction with a big 16G sized turbo & 500cc-700cc injectors yield more power than 91 octane while providing better knock suppression? Is it worth running E85 on a big 16G? Is it possible to switch between E85 & 91 octane (premium) with the setup described above without making drastic changes to the setup? What about the SAFCII, what kind of confusion does this introduce to running E85?

Your comments are appreciated.

 

[turboglenn]

You're going to get people answering both ways to your question as well.. The corrosion is more of a long term so there's no real info on "how much how fast" that i've found. Some people have maxed out huge injectors and some max out other parts of the fuel systema dn think it's the injectors (like i just did this week)

You can run 91 and e85 but you have to change maps to change from one to another.

no one can make the decision for you or assure nothing bad will happen, you just have to take the info given and decide if you want to try and run it or not... I tried on less than what i was supposed to ahve for fuel and now i'm out of fuel and waiting on a new pump and filter setup to arrive so i can race at the KCIR meet on may 23rd

 

[DSM90AWD]

My questions are: Can anyone validate that it is ok to run E85 in DSM’s without corrosive side effects to the fuel lines in the long run?

Walbros are not currently designed to operate with E85, yet they seem to have been working fine the past few years. The OEM Fuel lines are ok as is the tank. I've yet to see a correlation of injector failures to E85 after extended use so would assume they are ok.

Will running E85 in conjunction with a big 16G sized turbo & 500cc-700c injectors yield more power than 91 octane while providing better knock suppression? Is it worth running E85 on a big 16G?

Airflow-for-airflow E85 will allow you to run more timing and leaner AFRs vs Pump91 which will give you more HP Potential. It will also allow you to run more boost before detonation as combustion is much cooler/higher octane rating as long as you have the fuel system to support that. Remember that E85 requires ~20% more fuel at any given airflow than Gas so depending on how much airflow you are currently running you may need more injector/pump.

Is it possible to switch between E85 & 91 octane (premium) with the setup described above without making drastic changes to the setup? What about the SAFCII, what kind of confusion does this introduce to running E85?

Although not the best device for tuning, the S-AFC can be used to calibrate the Fuel needs at the expense of radically altered timing.

GOOD THREAD HERE

As an FYI, I've been running a 50/50 mix of E70 Winter and E10 93 Premium (~E40 Eqivelant) and with a 5% increase to my global fuel (DSMLINK), car runs VERY WELL at 26psi

 

[JayRolla]

I would like to add that in the late 80's car manufacturers had to make all cars able to run ethanol blended fuel because gas companys started being required to blend 10-15% ethenol into there gas. So manufacturers changed the rubbers and lines they where using and anything from 89 and up should beable to run e85 with no issues.

The Mustang guys have been running the stuff for over 5 years with no issues, same with suburu's. I reccomend changing the stock paper fuel filter along with the line to the rail to give a nice even fuel pressure to the injectors.

A 16g doesnt make crap on pump gas. You can get full potential out of that turbo if you ran e85. On pump gas my brothers 16g car made 300whp at 18psi and 18* timing. We could not get anymore without pulling a lot more timing. Now he is running 28psi and 26* timing with e85 but we dont have any dyno numbers yet.

I would run 950's at smallest with your 16g and atleast a 255lph rewired. Also a wbo2 is needed because the fuel changes blends with the seasons and some small fuel changing may be needed.

 

[2gGSX]

Since these guys seem to have answered the bulk of your question, let me address the switching between E85/70 and pump gas.

You CAN switch back and forth--I was just forced to do it for a couple of gallons since my nearest E85 station "ran out of gas". I've only had two issues in doing this, and one was that it creates an unknown mixture of ethanol in your gas tank, so you have to fine tune your global fuel modification based on fuel trims. The other is that you have a short period where you still run the original fuel through the fuel lines, yet have your settings compensated for the other fuel. In this situation, just keep the car running in whatever way you can and idle/cruise around until you are sure everything is settled.

 

[2gGSX]

I would run 950's at smallest with your 16g and atleast a 255lph rewired. Also a wbo2 is needed because the fuel changes blends with the seasons and some small fuel changing may be needed.

While the wideband is a good idea regardless of what fuel you run, you absolutely DO NOT need 950's for a typical 16g setup.

 

[matthewdesigns]

Is it possible to switch between E85 & 91 octane (premium) with the setup described above without making drastic changes to the setup?

I just received in the mail today a dual image chip from Jeff at Keydiver to allow me to do this very thing. With the flip of a switch (and a boost pressure adjustment), I can go from pump91 to e85 and back. Two timing maps, two global fuel settings, and two target afr's. The setup I'll be using will be 950's, a rewired 255HP, and an afpr. This with my Evo3 16g. Based on waht I've read, I didn't feel safe going smaller than 950's with e85. I know I'll have plenty of headroom with them. I'll have it all installed in the next couple of weekends, and can give you a follow-up report if you'd like.

What about the SAFCII, what kind of confusion does this introduce to running E85?

Jeff highly advised against trying to make any changes with an afc to compensate for pump91 on an e85 map, or e85 on a pump91 map. And I thnk anyone here familiar with afc's would tell you the same. There is just too much of a change in timing when going that far with an afc. I even asked him if I could get away with a "middle ground" setup on a standard chip, and he shot that down, too. So, be safe, get a dual image chip, or DSMLink, or some other total ecu management system so you can safely run both fuels.