Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[JayRolla]

While the wideband is a good idea regardless of what fuel you run, you absolutely DO NOT need 950's for a typical 16g setup.

So what would you recommend him to run for e85. 850's at the smallest is what I would run. At 28psi on my brothers car we are seeing 85% IDC's on 1000cc injectors. Also he has a rewired 255lph.

 

[Ravenous]

Depending on area and temps this may differ, but I had a helluva time with cold starts, even at 50 degrees it would bog if it was completely warmed up. It would also take a little while to turn over before it would fire up. I am sure with some changes to my rom I could compensate but I just don't have the time right now to mess with it. Just threw in 93 and with a rom switch I was good to go again. I work six days a week so my time to tune is almost 0 so once I get back to a 2 day weekend I will give it another go. Otherwise e85 rocked and I am sure with proper tuning it will rock again.

 

[2gGSX]

So what would you recommend him to run for e85. 850's at the smallest is what I would run. At 28psi on my brothers car we are seeing 85% IDC's on 1000cc injectors. Also he has a rewired 255lph.

Is he flowing mid 40 lbs/min on that same 16g setup at 6000+ elevation? I'm seeing 80% IDCs with 950's and 47 lbs/min at a conservative 11.5:1 gas AFR.

For a 35 lbs/min setup he could get away with 650's even if he had to, although 750's would put him at a much more comfortable IDC. For 40 lbs/min, which is about the max a vast majority of people see with a cammed 16g setup, those same 750's are now at the high end of the IDC spectrum, and so 850's would be more desirable.

Regardless, 1000cc/min injectors are absolutely not considered necessary with an E85 16g setup.

 

[TSIfreek]

The main thing I have learned with switching to E85 is the use of DSM link is nessasary because of the bigger injector size. I personally run E85 with link and 880s on a fully supported 16g set up run daily with no problems at all at 19 psi. I had no problems during the winter even at 5* cold started just the same as did on gas and it all comes to the tune link lets you get your set up right on.
As far as the corosive side we have found no problems even with guys running it for 3 years straight.
If I were to do it over again I would go with 1150s using dsm link.

 

[kiddsm95]

Wow this is all excellent information. Jay Rolla, once your bro gets his car dyno'd please do report back the results. I'm guessing he'll be around 400 hp at 28 psi??? The way this thread is headed I would have to really change my current setup to run E85 on the E316G that I've got. The sad part is even if I tried to stick with the SAFCII I'd have one hell of a time trying to control the 1000cc injectors required for E85, so that means ditching the SAFCII for DSM Link or use it with a Keydriver chip.

At this point I need to do more research on DSM90AWD's fuel pump thread. I'll post back after doing more homework.

 

[JayRolla]

Wow this is all excellent information. Jay Rolla, once your bro gets his car dyno'd please do report back the results. I'm guessing he'll be around 400 hp at 28 psi??? The way this thread is headed I would have to really change my current setup to run E85 on the E316G that I've got. The sad part is even if I tried to stick with the SAFCII I'd have one hell of a time trying to control the 1000cc injectors required for E85, so that means ditching the SAFCII for DSM Link or use it with a Keydriver chip.

At this point I need to do more research on DSM90AWD's fuel pump thread. I'll post back after doing more homework.

Or you can do what I'm doing. Im going to through 1000cc injectors in my setup and use the maf-t for the global compensation. Then use the safc for fine tuning. I may have some timing advance but with the e85 it should be ok as long as its not dangerously high.

I remember my buddy running 25psi on a 57 trim with 1000cc injectors, safc, maf-t and pump gas. He just pulled the timing way back on the CAS. I hopefully wont have to pull to much back with the e85.

Is he flowing mid 40 lbs/min on that same 16g setup at 6000+ elevation? I'm seeing 80% IDCs with 950's and 47 lbs/min at a conservative 11.5:1 gas AFR.

For a 35 lbs/min setup he could get away with 650's even if he had to, although 750's would put him at a much more comfortable IDC. For 40 lbs/min, which is about the max a vast majority of people see with a cammed 16g setup, those same 750's are now at the high end of the IDC spectrum, and so 850's would be more desirable.

Regardless, 1000cc/min injectors are absolutely not considered necessary with an E85 16g setup.

I doubt that turbo is even pushing 35lbs/min up here in this altitude. All I know is that real life numbers dont lie. He is running 28psi and falling to 22-24psi by 7500rpm's. Fuel pressure is at 40psi and he is still seeing 85% IDC's on his 1000cc injectors. All on a 16g.

Other people I know running 850's on stock evo's are seeing 90% IDC's on stock 16g's at 26psi. The afr's are usually between 10.9-11.1 on all the cars im talking about. So from my experience I wouldnt go anything below 850's on a 16g e85 setup just to give head room, its not like a little bigger is going to hurt anyways. I always say if you have the right EMS go as large as you can.

 

[2gGSX]

This may be a little OT, but tell him to consider checking his fuel pump sock and/or fuel filter. If they are clogged then fuel starvation could create artificially high IDCs. With 35 lbs/min and an 11:1 gasoline equivalent AFR, there is no way in hell he should be close to 85% IDC's on 1000cc injectors. I'm flowing over 33% more air than him and have lower IDCs.

 

[JayRolla]

This may be a little OT, but tell him to consider checking his fuel pump sock and/or fuel filter. If they are clogged then fuel starvation could create artificially high IDCs. With 35 lbs/min and an 11:1 gasoline equivalent AFR, there is no way in hell he should be close to 85% IDC's on 1000cc injectors. I'm flowing over 33% more air than him and have lower IDCs.

Ahhh, he is running e85. Why you even bring up gasoline when we have been talking only about e85.

 

[2gGSX]

Ahhh, he is running e85. Why you even bring up gasoline when we have been talking only about e85.

Gasoline equivalent AFRs? What do YOU tune by?

 

[bastard dsm]

read more carfully.

 

[bling5tatus]

I just received in the mail today a dual image chip from Jeff at Keydiver to allow me to do this very thing. With the flip of a switch (and a boost pressure adjustment), I can go from pump91 to e85 and back. Two timing maps, two global fuel settings, and two target afr's. The setup I'll be using will be 950's, a rewired 255HP, and an afpr. This with my Evo3 16g. Based on waht I've read, I didn't feel safe going smaller than 950's with e85. I know I'll have plenty of headroom with them. I'll have it all installed in the next couple of weekends, and can give you a follow-up report if you'd like.




Jeff highly advised against trying to make any changes with an afc to compensate for pump91 on an e85 map, or e85 on a pump91 map. And I thnk anyone here familiar with afc's would tell you the same. There is just too much of a change in timing when going that far with an afc. I even asked him if I could get away with a "middle ground" setup on a standard chip, and he shot that down, too. So, be safe, get a dual image chip, or DSMLink, or some other total ecu management system so you can safely run both fuels.

Good man, I am glad I saw your post because I was coming on here to say that you could make a dual image chip and follow Jeff O's guide to make it switchable between the hi and lo rom images on the eprom. MY QUESTION is.... will that modification work with an eprom emulator?

I don't see why it wouldn't as the emulator should be doing the exact same thing the chip is doing on the ecu.... and it will allow you the ability to adjust your tune further, I already ahve this functionality, but I wanted to expand it with a dual image binary.... that way it doesn't matter what pump I go to, I can just switch.... and if there's an issue with the air temp outside or whatever, the timing/fuel/ve maps can be changed on the fly.

You absolutely DO NOT need DSMLimp to do this. A 1g running speed density w/ an eprom emulator will handle all of this using a stock ecu.... and perform beautifully doing so.

 

[architechnik]

There's really no need to fight about injector sizes. You guys already know the typical increase in fuel requirements so just do the math.

If you figure for pump gas you would like to run some 750cc's with that E3 and increase the injector size by 15-20% for E85

750's * 1.15 = 862.5
750's * 1.20 = 900

If you have supporting fuel systems to supply the correct amount of pressures with the greater fuel requirements, then the injectors should be right around this range.

(I'm sitting here with 950's, a programmed chip, and drooling while waiting for the new E85 supplier station to be completed)

 

[evileclipse909]

Ok. So I've decided that E85 is gunna be the way to go for my new setup. But there's still a couple things I'd like to know b4 jumping in head deep. A lot of people say that at least 950 injectors are needed Which isnt a problem ### I was wanting to runn 1000cc's anyway. But What I want to know is how big should I go with a 57trim? Will 1150's work? Is that too big? How big can I go with a re-wired 255lph? And how hard is it going to be to try and tune 1000cc and up injectors with a MAFT and SAFC2? Anyone that can help me with my confusion would be greatly apriciated.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

saying you have a 57 trim is very deceiving, there are to many turbo combinations that come out to being a 57 trim. What HP level are you looking for. Just a heads up for you, MAFT and SAFC alone aren't going to be easy to tune the car with an injector much bigger then 750cc.

 

[evileclipse909]

I'm not sure of the turbo exactly. Its an ebay t3/t4 To4e and the wheel specs out to be 57mm. I'm shooting for around 400 to 450hp and I'm planing on geting at least into the low twelves this summer.

 

[2gGSX]

You absolutely DO NOT need DSMLimp to do this. A 1g running speed density w/ an eprom emulator will handle all of this using a stock ecu.... and perform beautifully doing so.

The OP runs a 2g. Your comment has no relevance to him.

 

[JayRolla]

Gasoline equivalent AFRs? What do YOU tune by?

I did miss that. He has 8an line from tank to fuel rail. New rewired 255lph fp, new carl performance fuel filter(clean), new fic 1000cc injectors. Fp at 40-42psi I cant remember. At redline where he is only seeing 24psi his IDC is at 85% and a 10.9 afr. What else can I say except the logger is lieing to me.

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

Almost everyone recommends large injectors when running E85, I don't even know why you wouldn't want to run anything less than 850's. Sure he can probably get away with 750's but he probably can't run too much boost even on the setup he has, let alone if he upgrades turbos.

 

[gsxtasy]

Is he flowing mid 40 lbs/min on that same 16g setup at 6000+ elevation? I'm seeing 80% IDCs with 950's and 47 lbs/min at a conservative 11.5:1 gas AFR.

How are you doing this? This makes me question something in my fuel system. I am only at around 38lb/min on the 3052 at 19-20psi, with the same 11.5:1 i am seeing 80% IDC's as well, I'm also at 50psi BFP, because with the inline 255 i can't turn it down any lower than 48psi. Which makes even less sense. With that fuel pressure it makes my 950's into about 1020's. Hmmm, somethings not right. What do you have your global set at?

 

[2gGSX]

My global is set at -32% in order to zero my LTFT Mid (not the best way but it seems to work). At 7000 RPM I am pulling -28% fuel from the WOT slider.

It is possible though that I still have some excess pump gas left in my tank, although I've been running E85 for about three months now. I'd imagine most of that is gone now, from the depths of the saddlebag.

 

[gsxtasy]

My global is set at -32% in order to zero my LTFT Mid (not the best way but it seems to work). At 7000 RPM I am pulling -28% fuel from the WOT slider.

It is possible though that I still have some excess pump gas left in my tank, although I've been running E85 for about three months now. I'd imagine most of that is gone now, from the depths of the saddlebag.

Hrm, sounds pretty similar to mine. Mine is right around -34%, i also shot for fuel trims here. I don't think i'm taking out that much fuel up top though. Strange.

 

[bastard dsm]

750's will get you over 400hp, i made 445hp on a 18g at 28-25psi,
you dont need huge injectors. its about a 10-15% increase in fuel from 93
to e85.if you are needing more than their is something wrong with your
fuel system.

 

[bling5tatus]

^^Awesome, I was thinking that some of these people were going way overkill on their inj sizes and creating other tuning problems due to the large inj sizes.

Plus I think, if I can get away with it, I'm going to run it lean as crap while the engine is under vacuum.... and hopefully save my MPG w/o melting anything.

How feasible is this?

 

[turboglenn]

^^Awesome, I was thinking that some of these people were going way overkill on their inj sizes and creating other tuning problems due to the large inj sizes.

Plus I think, if I can get away with it, I'm going to run it lean as crap while the engine is under vacuum.... and hopefully save my MPG w/o melting anything.

How feasible is this?

I've got my closed loop running at .400mv stoich reference (or 16.2:1 roughly on the wideband ) and it runs fine, no lean bucking and i've gotten my E85 mileage matching my old petrolium mileage, but my pump gas map was a bit rich. I'm seeing an average of 15.5MPG in the city and a little over 25 highway

 

[bling5tatus]

I've got my closed loop running at .400mv stoich reference (or 16.2:1 roughly on the wideband ) and it runs fine, no lean bucking and i've gotten my E85 mileage matching my old petrolium mileage, but my pump gas map was a bit rich. I'm seeing an average of 15.5MPG in the city and a little over 25 highway

Ok, well that is awesome that you can run it that lean.... how far can you advance your cruise timing to keep some torque?

What I'm hoping to do is meet or beat my MPG (and power) that I was making w/ 93octane.... and I think it is possible given how lean you can run the e85.