Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[StockBiotchs]

I have just started to "play" with E85......

stock 6 bolt
255
650's
SAFC
UEGO
FMIC
2 1/2" DP
3" back
2G ex mani
2G O2
E3 16G

I started with a 2 part 94 oct gas to 1 part E85, added fuel as needed with the SAFC, and left the MBC alone (at 18 lbs). Initially it felt stronger down low, added a little fuel and even stronger A/R's high 10's low 11's..... First impressions I burned 2 tanks of fuel in that mix. And gave a SRT4 that toys with me a good roll race from 40.

Next, as of wed. I went to 1 to 1, have not touched the MBC....., added fuel where the car wanted it, A/R's under load low 11's...... The car is stronger yet. I have not pulled a log yet. That is my next step, to see how much boost I can throw at her......

If I had the injectors I would probably go all E85, and save my money for a link....

So far the car loves candy corn, who would have thought an old work horse would like candy corn......

 

[Mikael SS]

If you had actually done any sort of research on E85, you would have learned that higher octane on a stock car will decrease performance- both power and fuel economy.

I have a feeling that any gains you would get from leaning the car out a bit will be less than the decrease you'll see from the added octane.

 

[Calan]

higher octane on a stock car will decrease performance- both power and fuel economy.

Umm.... What?

 

[90talontsi90]

If you had actually done any sort of research on E85, you would have learned that higher octane on a stock car will decrease performance- both power and fuel economy.

I have a feeling that any gains you would get from leaning the car out a bit will be less than the decrease you'll see from the added octane.

Your right in the fact that because of the higher octane the mixture will burn slower, BUT our cars were programed to use premiue gas. And a lot of us are limited to 91 or 92 octane gas, not the 93,94 that other states get. I know that when I end up at a gas station that only has 91 if I could put in a gallon of E85 it would do a world of wonder for my car. But washingtion state still doesn't have ANY public E85 pumps anywhere from what I've found.

Kyle

 

[HighBoostLaser]

E85 huh NOPE NOT FOR ME

 

[1bad91tsi]

There is a e85 procesing plant 10 miles away from me .It runs about $1.40 a gallon around here.

 

[DougR]

Ok so 1st things 1st, we have 3 camps here.
1: Guys that demand the best in tuning and equipmet. I have No problems with that, I agree Completly.
2: Guys that will use and tune with what they have to the Very best they can while doing it Safe. I agree Completly, been there Done That. heck still doing it to an extent.
3: Guys who say its just wrong. you dont know anything. you will blow it up. essentially because they are Parrots and do nothing but repeat what they have heard, read or just plain did it wrong and made a mistake. hey! we all do.

Which one are you? You dont need to respond. As most of the regulars here are DSM-Tuners. know who is who.

Now To the Point.

Well, The Car is still running strong as ever. Im at 3.8 gallons on 11.5 gallons of 93 (that as we all know contains up to 15% ethanol). which is the highest I will go (better safe than sorry). current mods to the car are the same as 1st post (yes. the car is 100% maintaned, BISS is leaking a tiny bit other than that leak free).

O2 readings say Im great, Plug color looks great. my logs are showing its picking up timing ALL over. and the power increase is Very! noticable!
yess yess. IF runing lean, Can and Will do horrible things to vales and pistons. But Hey! Plug Colors and O2 Readings Dont LIE! heck I trust plug color over O2 Sensors anyday of the week. maybe its the old school carb'ed V8 in me.

I use 2 methods atm to log my car. G-Tech Pro and Dyterra dyno-scan, was given to me by a friend (yes I have DSM link, but as my profile states, Im waiting on parts. ala Cash).
So I probly was knocking alil on the dinky T-25 with 93 octane , Factory BCS with resrictor removed at 13psi, spiking to 16. (dyno-scan does Not show Knock. but it does show me everything else, in Real Time and Logged.)

Either way, theres NOWAY! I will stop adding E85 to my car. Period! IF I was knocking before, I am Definatly NOT now! we all know the benifits of E85 and Forced Induction engines.
stock system with stock boost and stock turbo, = NO knock even with a moderate amount of E85, ofcourse on a properly maintained engine.

O yea, this is something I know! you guys will argue to the death about!
My MPG has IMPROVED since adding in the E85!
I went from a miserable 12-18 MPG up to 16-18. CITY! might be my driving habits are changing. but I dont see how as I drive like a maniac on speed 90% of the time, SAFELY ofcourse. mostly just alot of boost launches, and driving around with OD off.

Go ahead and this to death if you want. There are some VERY Anal PPL here. But even they know it works, they just tend to do it differently with ALOT more E85.

The stuff Works, nuff said!


Doug

 

[Calan]

We "can't" get E85 here... and only one station in town sells anything higher than 91.

So whenever possible, I run 8 gallons of 91 and 2 gallons of E85 shhh, and my car runs absolutely fantastic on it. I have a WBO2, and other goodies, so I'm not just haphazardly throwing crap in without knowing what's going on.

It's like anything else on this goofy forum; if you just follow the masses and are clueless... yeah.. you're probably gonna blow some sh*t up. But if you have half a brain and look at what you are doing, you'll get a lot of performance AND reliability out of your car.

I'll confidently run my 8/2 mix of 91 and E85 for as long as I can find a few gallons of it laying around, and keep bitching at anyone I can to get it available at the pumps.

 

[StockBiotchs]

If you had actually done any sort of research on E85, you would have learned that higher octane on a stock car will decrease performance- both power and fuel economy.

I have a feeling that any gains you would get from leaning the car out a bit will be less than the decrease you'll see from the added octane.

not to start a flame war, I understand I don't have 8,000 posts, screen name sounds like some smarta$$ kid (thanks to my 21 y/o son). I have done all the work on my car myself, I have had it 3 years, put 30K miles on it, and tortured it every step of the way. I DD my car, and work 20 miles away from home....


I haven't seen where the car has "leaned out", and I can assure you my car has not seen a decrease in performance.......and I will continue to "play" with the candy corn.

 

[blackGSX2g]

I played around with E85 last year with great results. I was running all the mods in my profile at 31psi and it was loving it. The only downside for me was my spool time was increased a bit and low end power was lacking. I was having trouble tuning that out, but once boost hit the thing took off like it was on Torco.

 

[Mikael SS]

Umm.... What?

should i reword this? The higher the octane the slower the burn. Less energy. A car that runs fine and is then switched to higher octane will see a decrease in performance.

Why do you think Diesels get such good mileage? Stoich. for them is much higher, or more energy in the fuel.

 

[Mikael SS]

not to start a flame war, I understand I don't have 8,000 posts, screen name sounds like some smarta$$ kid (thanks to my 21 y/o son). I have done all the work on my car myself, I have had it 3 years, put 30K miles on it, and tortured it every step of the way. I DD my car, and work 20 miles away from home....


I haven't seen where the car has "leaned out", and I can assure you my car has not seen a decrease in performance.......and I will continue to "play" with the candy corn.

So your car defies the laws of physics?

You understand that there is less energy in E85 right?

The only way you could have seen an increase in performance is if the car was knocking beforehand, or if the new fuel leaned it out. Adding E85 to a car that's running fine will only lower your economy and power. Period.

Adding E85 to a car and then upping boost and timing, of course will see an improvement in performance.

 

[Calan]

The higher the octane the slower the burn. Less energy

But you also get a more even/efficient burn, reduced cylinder temperatures, and reduced hot spots. So while you have less energy per unit volume of air/fuel, you also have more of the available mixture being utilized to make power. It fits within the laws of physics just fine.

A car that runs fine and is then switched to higher octane will see a decrease in performance.

I disagree with a blanket statement like that. In some cases it may be true. But in other cases (see above), you can definitely pick up some power.

But like anything else, it can be overdone.

 

[MountainDew]

E85 on a STOCK fuel system is STUPID!

To even think about doing it right, you'll need 1000cc injectors, 255lph and DSMLink. Wideband would also help greatly as well.

 

[Calan]

E85 on a STOCK fuel system is STUPID!

To even think about doing it right, you'll need 1000cc injectors, 255lph and DSMLink. Wideband would also help greatly as well.

Hopefully we're not talking about running pure E85 on a stock system. Maybe I missed that

Besides the obvious (as you mentioned), there are other potential problems with aluminum corrosion, fuel tank seals, etc.

BUT.. If you have the proper mods and know how to monitor your engine, using a bit of E85 as an octane booster does work. Period. There's tons of track runs, logs, and dyno pulls that prove it. (And don't bother to ask me to post links, cause I'm too lazy, and I really don't care to prove the point that much ).

As for comments like going to a higher octane on a stock car (like filling up with 93 instead of 91) lowers performance...

But hey... the beauty of it is that we can all do whatever the hell we want with our own cars.. right?

 

[DougR]

E85 on a STOCK fuel system is STUPID!

To even think about doing it right, you'll need 1000cc injectors, 255lph and DSMLink. Wideband would also help greatly as well.

Your statement is completly true IF. the person is running To mutch
E85 for the stock fuel system.
but for someone running less than 40% its completly False.

The stock system can handly a great deal more than ppl here realize.
Watch plug color and O2 readings will tell you when you have gone to far in the mixture.

Please completly read and understand, before you post a reply that has no bearing on the subject.
guys running only 3.8 gallons of the stuff. per 11.5 gallons 93. in a 16gallon tank.
on stock turbo are SAFE! its been proven numerous times in numerous vehical / engine combos.


Thanks,


Doug

 

[MountainDew]

Your statement is completly true IF. the person is running To mutch
E85 for the stock fuel system.
but for someone running less than 40% its completly False.

The stock system can handly a great deal more than ppl here realize.
Watch plug color and O2 readings will tell you when you have gone to far in the mixture.

Please completly read and understand, before you post a reply that has no bearing on the subject.
guys running only 3.8 gallons of the stuff. per 11.5 gallons 93. in a 16gallon tank.
on stock turbo are SAFE! its been proven numerous times in numerous vehical / engine combos.


Thanks,


Doug

Even running that much can do some harm. I wouldn't recommend even touching any E85 unless you can monitor knock, timing, A/F, etc.

One thing about DSMs is, sure it might work great now, but unless you know exactly what you're doing, don't expect it to last long. That being said, since I'll be fully built and running 680s, 210lph, safc and a wideband, if i can get a logger, I might play with E85 a little bit.

 

[Calan]

Even running that much can do some harm.

Nick,

Not trying to be an ass here... but do have any proof of a 30% mix of E85/fuel doing harm? Have you run E85 yourself and compared logs?

Again.. don't take that the wrong way. If there is proof that a 30% mix can cause problems, we need to see it. And personally I'd like to see it because I run about a 15-20% mix myself and love it. But if there is proof that it causes problems, I may reconsider.

Would have to be some confirmed proof from at least two sources though

 

[tkelly27]

Technically what he's made is E30.
EPA looking into the safety of E20 and E30, but some customers totally dig it - AutoblogGreen
If I remember right, in Oregon the powers that be are talking about mandating E15! You wouldn't have a choice but to run it.

I was under the impression that maximum engine output occurs at somewhere around 13:1ish
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/2440/S342_1_005i.jpg

It's not generally considered "safe" though. However, with the more uniform, cooler burning (is that right?) ethanol in there, it's probably a lot safer than it could be.

With more timing advance, a "better" air fuel ratio, and a better burning fuel he could certainly have more power and more efficiency.

From what I've read, the less energy issue can be nearly negated by running a more efficient engine cycle (higher compression, more spark advance). Would love to test it some day...

Anyways, he likes it, it's cheap for him, and it's entirely possible his car is running much better. Where's the problem? Can't recommend anyone else do it without the ability to monitor what's going on in their engine. I can't recommend anyone do anything to their engine without that ability though.

 

[Calan]

With more timing advance, a "better" air fuel ratio, and a better burning fuel he could certainly have more power and more efficiency.

From what I've read, the less energy issue can be nearly negated by running a more efficient engine cycle (higher compression, more spark advance). Would love to test it some day...

Anyways, he likes it, it's cheap for him, and it's entirely possible his car is running much better. Where's the problem? Can't recommend anyone else do it without the ability to monitor what's going on in their engine. I can't recommend anyone do anything to their engine without that ability though.

Exactly... and well put.

Someone needs to just close this and merge it with the other 32457235 threads on E85

 

[MountainDew]

Nick,

Not trying to be an ass here... but do have any proof of a 30% mix of E85/fuel doing harm? Have you run E85 yourself and compared logs?

Again.. don't take that the wrong way. If there is proof that a 30% mix can cause problems, we need to see it. And personally I'd like to see it because I run about a 15-20% mix myself and love it. But if there is proof that it causes problems, I may reconsider.

Would have to be some confirmed proof from at least two sources though

Yes I have ran it myself. Being that I live in the Metro Kansas City area, one day I was in the middle of nowhere. The only gas station I could find was E85. I had a little less then a quarter tank left of gas but I thought it wouldn't do much harm. Filled it up to about half, so roughly a 50/50 mix. Car would stutter at highway speeds and ran pretty crappy. Did maybe 2 pulls from 2-3 and noticed worse performance. Later that night, my lifters started ticking like crazy. It eventually went away.

It could have been numerous amounts of things, but I know that E85 had something to do with it. Stupid move since I wasn't monitoring everything. I'm a firm believer when it comes to the DSM world... "Better safe then sorry". That's why I'm a little hesitant on running even a light mix of E85 on a bone stock car.

If it works and you're monitoring EVERYTHING very closely, then more power to ya! Otherwise if you're just pumping the stuff into your car and not observing a damn thing, then you pretty much deserve anything that could happen.

Like I said, I am going to be playing with E85 a little bit. Would be nice to max out my injectors around 22psi and having like a 60/40 or 50/50 E85/Gas mix. Of course none of this will even be taken seriously until I get a logger. DSMLink is out of the question, I need to finish my build first.

 

[DougR]

Thanks to Tkelly27 for finding this page.

Study: non-flex fuel cars get better fuel economy on ethanol - AutoblogGreen

As I had not seen this particular study yet. and have noticed a increase in MPG.
My opinions were based off Alot! of other test results, and real world data from here and various Car forums.

Guys take a Real look at what is posted on that page. both by the main study, and the PPL who posted their thoughts below.
As this is almost exactly the blend me and a Thousands of other PPL are running, daily.
Im actually running less. approx 30-45% depending on how accurate the pumps and the "gas companys Blend is". Above 50% certainly! ppls vehicals would behave Very badly (If not self destruct) without a tune and proper equipment to bring it back inline.

Just some food for thought.


Doug,

 

[MountainDew]

Good find. Just keep in mind that if you're running straight E85, with the proper tuning you will get less fuel economy due to your injectors being bigger and adjusted. But the cheaper price of E85 makes up for it anyways. Atleast this is how we look at it with my friend's LS-Vtec Turbo Teg.

Doug what do you do, just fill up a certain amount of pump gas then drive over to the E85 place?

 

[DougR]

Yess I pump in 12.5 gallons of 93( this is after driving for 3 days with the Low fuel Light on, this puts me at Aprox 1 gallon of fuel left in the tank). then drive 15 minutes away to another gas station ( Its Aprox 15-20 miles away) and pump in
3 - 3.8 gallons of E85. Depending on how fast my right foot gets me there.

If its traffic and slow going, ala saving gas. Then I run 3 gallons E85. If im driving like a roadrace king. I put in 3.8 gallons.

My car gets fairy bad MPG (Compared to some of the Excellent Tuners here). So it varies with how I drive from one station to another.

Here in the next month or so. Me and my brother are going in on a 55 gallon drum of E85 and 2 empty drums. To mix the Blend alot better.
He will be useing the Blend in his 1st gen camero. has a FULLY built 355. with the Holley Commander MPI on it.
so we are Real Curious to what kind of numbers we can squeeze out of a NA and Highly modified V8.

O hey. another tib bit of Info. It takes Aprox 2 miles and wiggling the car while SLOWLY driving down a EMPTY road to get the Fuels to mix and the results to come online.
You WILL know when the Blend hits the Injectors. You will notice a Drastic change in Exhaust Note coming from under the Hood. And a faily good increase in Bottom and Mid range Torque. I dont care to mutch for high end numbers as my daily commutes doesnt let me excede 60 MPH.
But as in every Mod. some ppl will get more out of it than others due to the ever changing tunes on stock DSM's.

Just Be Safe! Start Small! and Watch those Plugs!
BTW, Its Taken my over 9 Tanks of gas to finally settle at 3.8 gallons of E85, I went up .1 gallons of E85 per tank.
This puts my Plugs at a Nice Tan color.

Doug,

 

[StockBiotchs]

should i reword this? The higher the octane the slower the burn. Less energy. A car that runs fine and is then switched to higher octane will see a decrease in performance.

Why do you think Diesels get such good mileage? Stoich. for them is much higher, or more energy in the fuel.

that is simply not true. Stoich for diesel is 14.6 to 1.........

Why does Nitromethane make so much power??? stoich is 1.0 to 2.0?????

Fuel By weight By volume [1] Percent fuel by weight
Gasoline 14.7 : 1 - 6.8%
Natural Gas 17.2 : 1 9.7 : 1 5.8%
Propane (LP) 15.5 : 1 23.9 : 1 6.45%
Ethanol 9 : 1 - 11.1%
Methanol 6.4 : 1 - 15.6%
Hydrogen 34 : 1 2.39 : 1 2.9%
Diesel 14.6 : 1 - 6.8%