Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[97MitsuEclipse]

I thought about water/meth injection but since i got most of the parts for the E85 switch already this would be cheaper. I'm going to get the wideband now thanks for your help. and I did think about the cheaper price and the fact that i'll use more fuel i calculated it out and i should save a whole 3 dollars a month but thats with getting a lot more horsepower

 

[Skywalker18]

Wow, that seems very lean for E-85. I have always heard you have to dump in a lot more fuel.

You have to burn more fuel, but because of the higher octane you can run it lean.

I would try adding a lot of fuel for cold starts.

Do you have a way to alter the coolant correction maps in your system? Or can you do some post start enrichment or priming pulse changes at all? I use to have a hell of a time with cold starts on my car almost killing the battery if i had to leave it outside overnight in the nebraska winters ( regular gas , 720cc injectors). Because it was always garage kept, i never had to tune that part of the system. Now that i'm in a small house till ours gets built, my car is outside and i had to add a TON of fuel for cold mornign starts and warmups.. I'm priming it with 50ms of pulse on fuel pump prime, then the A/F's are 10:1 for the first few minutes of warmup, then they go back to 12.5 - 13:1 ( i like to idle rich, it's smoother)

I am using DSMlink for tuning. I don't think that it has the ability to alter the coolant correction maps, that would definitely make life easier. I noticed in your profile you have the haltec

Having a fill station next to your house also makes the switch nice and easy too. Plus, the car runs so much cleaner with it. If you take off you head and look at you pistons after running e-85 they look brand new. Your emissions are also more environmentally friendly, which makes getting an inspection easy as pie.

 

[silvreclips]

You have to burn more fuel, but because of the higher octane you can run it lean.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I may have to consider switching one day. The only problem is that not very many people sell it around here and I wouldn't want to get stuck somewhere needing gas and not be able to find E-85. I Guess you could always make 2 different fuel maps and switch back and forth if you had to.

 

[Ajax]

Internal walbro GSS317 and external GSL392. I welded a -8an bung onto the plate if you look at the link you can see some pics. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/271770-8an-supply-line-6an-return.html

 

[carslinger]

Well I finally got around to trying the e85 last night and well......E85 and safc are freinds.

Most of you know the safc has caused many issues over the years with timing advance. I decided while waiting for my ems to try the fic 1000cc injectors with my 2gmaf and afc. As you know already know...It did not work out to well. I was able to tune for 10-12 knock count across the board at 19psi. I happened to be driving past the HEB on parmer and decided to put 5 gal of e85 in to see what would happen. Well I pulled out on the frontage road...made a pull and guess what.....no knock......long story short max boost 24 psi 19 degree timing map......no knock.....

Everything is peachy......



Till the head gasket went.........

I am very impressed with the capability of the fuel...now new headgasket some L19's and EmS ......

 

[X|Crescens]

Not to highjack the thread, but I wanted to run e85 as well but there are the corrosion issues that concern me. What are people doing with e85 to prevent gas tank and gas line corrosions. If you switch to e85 do you have to get a fuel cell and new rubber fuel lines? Thanks.

 

[gixrman]

Not to highjack the thread, but I wanted to run e85 as well but there are the corrosion issues that concern me. What are people doing with e85 to prevent gas tank and gas line corrosions. If you switch to e85 do you have to get a fuel cell and new rubber fuel lines? Thanks.

You can run anodized AL lines or stainless steel. From what I've read our fuel tanks should be fine. But you do (or should) have all seals that come in contact with fuel switched over to a more alcohol tolerant rubber VITON?? i think. And yes e85 is corrosive to bare aluminum. I still waiting for more pumps to go up.

 

[Defiant]

Don't hold your breath. Even politicians are beginning to realize how stupid it is to use food for fuel. And if it's occurring in the tiny little brain cases of politicians, the banks won't be very far behind.

 

[TunaTalon]

Don't hold your breath. Even politicians are beginning to realize how stupid it is to use food for fuel. And if it's occurring to the tiny little brain case of politicians, the banks won't be very far behind.

Eh, Defiant you must have been too busy posting yesterday to watch C-Span.
The house passed a bill requiring higher CAFE standards and a LOT more corn into fuel.

In the same news cycle Wheat reached record high prices and the UN announced a worldwide shortage of food.

I would give my motorhead opinion of using corn for fuel but you would just ### it out.

 

[gixrman]

The cool thing is you can make E85 from more than just corn. Trash, switch grasses, sugar cane (thats how Brazil produces it) and some other agriculturial products. I even read an article in Popular Science mag. that a hugh microwave is being used to turn old tires into oil. Basiclly anything that is made up of Carbon chain molicules can be turned into oil. But yeah alot of it political and gread. Canada has the second largest deposit of oil reserves in the world so why are'nt we buying oil from them instead of Communist Venezuela?

 

[BUCK]

The 105 Octane was great but saving LESS than 10% in Cost & losing 20% in Fuel Mileage was a bummer - No more E85 for me - & yes SADLY being E85 makes NO sense the Politicians are all for it...

 

[TunaTalon]

Don't hold your breath. Even politicians are beginning to realize how stupid it is to use food for fuel. And if it's occurring in the tiny little brain cases of politicians, the banks won't be very far behind.

UPDATE:

Bush signed the energy bill into law this morning requiring more corn to be used as fuel and higher (much higher) fuel economy for new vehicles.

Defiant,
You have way too high an opinion of the intellectual abilities of Harry and Nancy.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Well as soon as we get some in my area I will be using it for sure... The lose in fuel consumption isnt my concern as long as its reasonable. I just want that octane and knock resistance !! Besides who builds there dsm for gas milage, or else why turn the boost up.

 

[ktmrider]

E85 needs much more fuel per unit volume of air to achieve the a stoich afr mixture when compared to gasoline. Stoich for E85 is ~ 9.7:1 where as a stoich afr for gasoline is 14.7:1. This results in much more fuel to get the same efficient burn mixture. Also, since the stoich afr is much lower on E85 you need to start looking at fuel feel line size, injector size as well as fuel pump flow, as your adding about 1.5 times more fuel to get the stoich ratio.

I have a friend with -10 AN feed lines in his Audi 20v turbo with 1000cc injectors and a bosch 044 pump, making 475+awhp, at 30 psi and he is seing duty cycles between 90-95% at WOT full boost. More things to take into consideration.

This is exactly right. Ethanol has less "calories" or thermal rating than petroleum

The 105 Octane was great but saving LESS than 10% in Cost & losing 20% in Fuel Mileage was a bummer - No more E85 for me - & yes SADLY being E85 makes NO sense the Politicians are all for it...

I agree from a standpoint of fuel economy BUT the main reason to switch IMHO is to give the major to the foreign oil producers. It ain't the best but it's a great start.

Also once they get celulose ethanol figured out it will make the cost similar per gallon to what Brazil pays for their fuel ( around $1.50 per gallon or less ).

For the most part we won't see much change until Bush is gone. Being a Texas oil man it only makes sense to delay things ( BTW I voted for him ). The US oil companies have too much to LOSE by switching to E85, plus converting every car to E85 could get tricky ( see the post below for erosion and water issues ).

Here is a link to a Subaru site with great info on the pros, cons, and work needed to get the boxer engine on E85. E85 fuel FAQ - Engine Management & Tuning - NASIOC

 

[gixrman]

For the most part we won't see much change until Bush is gone. Being a Texas oil man it only makes sense to delay things ( BTW I voted for him ). The US oil companies have too much to LOSE by switching to E85, plus converting every car to E85 could get tricky ( see the post below for erosion and water issues ).

That was a good arcitile, and I think even after he's gone its still going to take some time. Don't think big oil is'nt lobbying Demacratic members of congress too. Bush is just a figure head. There are alot of people that have invested big money in middle east oil and have made alot of money on the price of it. This has been going on for years. Also if you read some of the older threads about people running e85 on here there are some positive results.

 

[JayRolla]

You want to upgrade the fuel line from the tank all the way to the fuel rail. Also a wbo2 is essential because the blend sometimes fluctuates during climate change. It can actually be around 75% different times of year. Runing the e85, you dont really lose to much fuel mileage and the stuff is better than race gas IMO. You will beable to get the most out of any turbo and max it out. Also e85 loves timing. Like people say e85 is the best thing for a dsm since dsmlink.

 

[Defiant]

The cool thing is you can make E85 from more than just corn.

The uncool thing is that we only have so much dirt to grow food on, and only so many farmers doing the growing. Guess what: just like all the rest of us, they're going to do whatever lets them make the most money.

 

[Defiant]

UPDATE:

Bush signed the energy bill into law this morning requiring more corn to be used as fuel and higher (much higher) fuel economy for new vehicles.

Just like his lame-duck dad outlawing Freon- just when DuPont's patents were expiring. Oh, that couldn't be connected, though.

Defiant,
You have way too high an opinion of the intellectual abilities of Harry and Nancy.

Politicians come and go, thank god. The world decides what happens, not a bunch of hare-brained politicians. And not the News Business. They love to throw around scary stories, but reality will overtake it all. And no, we aren't going to run out of oil, and no, we can't do anything about the changes in the planet's climate.

 

[diggerzmound]

I am thinking about running E-85 as well. Thanks guys for posting your setups, I have something to model my car after.

As for Ethanol, Defiant is correct, the politicians are realizing how not smart these plants are. The biggest issue is the demand for corn, the gov't requires a certain amount of corn be sold overseas right off the top. What is left is for feeding, this is the real reason ethanol is failing, is it competing with livestock producers. Corn farmers are happy because the price of corn is at an all time high, but beef guys are crying to the gov't about feed prices. As of right now many of the planned ethanol plants up here are put on hold, investors are pulling their money. Ethanol is not feasible, it was a ploy to raise corn prices, the government put money up to encourage ethanol production to raise the price of corn so the corn farmers wouldn't need so much government subsidies.

Ethanol may burn clean and have low emissions, but the production is not real friendly with our water table. The process uses a LARGE amount of water, and depends on natural gas for heat during the process. The plant that was planned right next to us had the potential to use 4 million gallons of water a day for cooling.

I will run it for the octane benefits, I have been thinking about switching over on my atv's as well.

 

[Calan]

Give it a couple of years and a new cess pool of politicians... maybe we'll have efficient plants that can make it out of stalks, cellulose, and other "waste" instead of food.

As for now, I mix about 2 gallons of E85 with 8 gallons of 91 pump (when I can get it). Makes a huge difference in performance, but only a minor hit on fuel economy. Definitely runs better than straight 93 pump (which is hard to get here also).

 

[kittay]

E85 is great due to the cost difference, however it does use up 30% more fuel. So it all evens out due to the worse off gas milage (30%).
So, 30% more of 14,021 is 18,227.3 BTUs.

E-85 contains roughly 14,021 BTU per lb of pure potential heat energy

pump gas contains roughly 18,900 BTU per lb

E85 burns alot slower, and more fuel, but puts out more energy. It has a higher flash point, so you can run more boost, more timing, etc.

One thing also to be awair of, some states change over to E70 in the winter, so depending on where you are, that is one thing you will have to watch for. Also the ethanol kills fuel filters, you may end up needing to change it out when you change your oil filter.

Here's a great link:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/gni-mjb-051303.pdf

 

[gsxtasy]

On paper it supposedly takes 30% more, however in the real world it doesn't actually use up THAT much more fuel. On my car i think i had to add 16% on global, and still take some out at WOT. With that being said, I'm switching back to 91+meth, simply because i don't want to upgrade my fuel system again. On my 3052, my wally255 will run out quite quickly, as well as my 950's. Otherwise, it is amazing fuel and smells good too! Also, i don't think its the e85 that kill your fuel filters, its the ethanol getting all the corroded crap out of your tank and lines which ends up in the filter that kills it. So after you switch over for awhile, just slap a new filter on, because it will have cleaned the gunk out of your system.

 

[kittay]

True, I think with mine it was about 24% more.
The first week I had it, I freaked out since my car smelled like McDonalds.. , then you get used to it.

 

[gsxtasy]

True, I think with mine it was about 24% more.
The first week I had it, I freaked out since my car smelled like McDonalds.. , then you get used to it.

Yeah, I'm sure it will vary car to car and gas station to gas station. McDonald's , it's true. I like it better than the sickening smell of regular gas exhaust though.

 

[X|Crescens]

I have been running e85 for about 6 months now and I love it. A friend asked me what I was going to do when the e85 gas corrodes away at my gas tank and fuel lines. Is this true? If so how long does it take to corrode enough to where I would need a new gas tank and fuel lines. Has anyone with e85 resolved this issue? A fuel cell and rubber fuel lines maybe? Or could there be a fuel additive that could coat the lining of your fuel tank and lines to lessor or evade corrosion all together? Thanks for your input.