Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

Marcus is running 33 psi on e85!!!.... oh the Cobra guys are in for it now. "My cobra @ 17lbs will always be faster then your dsm" (that was when I was @ 15 psi on an evo 3 16g, now with the 35r and this new found info it's on like donkey kong, can you say awd wheel spin, haha we shall see.) I think I'll be ordering that "Who wants some?" decal now

 

[njc1064]

Ethanol (E85) is not corrosive, thats methanol, hence, you dilute it. Ethanol is a very clean burn. Also, 1000cc injectors can be maxed out running an EVO III 16g (obviously pushing it to its max potential) with E85. The fuel pump also becomes an issue. Many people recommend that you add an additional pump. Check out this site http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

Also, for those of you with dsmlink, search their forums for more information. I am planning on converting to E85 very soon (next few weeks).

 

[JayRolla]

A guy up in denver with a mirage is running 39psi with a lot of timing and still no knock. Jack is running around that much and so is his brother. Tyler at Jacks shop just built his car and should be in the 10's with it.

http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7236&highlight=e85

www.jackstransmissions.com Here is there website they build awesome trannys.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

39 psi wow! that's all I can say, I don't think anyone disagree's with me either

 

[90laserRSfwd]

any video's of this 39 psi mirage?

 

[Low Impedance]

1. E85 attacks rubber, magnesium and aluminum. If the metal is anodized so that the ethanol is not directly in contact with said metals, then odds are it will stand up to it. It will eat normal rubber fuel lines. I dont care if you add a little gasoline to it, it wont be overnight, but it will get there. Odds are these subaru people dont have a normal rubber for the fuel lines in factory form. Most cars since 1986 have been made to handle E10 that you tend to buy without knowing. Basically, if you car isnt 50 years old, you probably can handle E85.

2. Ethanol is not gasoline. E85 is still 85% ethanol. E85 will get lower mileage by nature. There is less potential energy per part than gasoline. With a stoichometric ration of about 9:1 you can see why there is a need for more fuel. BUT you can approach the stoich ratio and run leaner than you can with gasoline. that is why you really only need 30% more fuel instead 60ish% if you figure a ratio between gas and ethanol.

3. i have no idea where people are getting that ethanol has more preignition problems that gasoline. That is VERY false. Ethanol enriched fuels have much lower knock values. And take more heat to combust than gasoline.

4. Being an average of 20 cents cheaper per gallon than regular, in part because ethanol itself is cheap to make. Lets say your 93 octane pump is 2.50 cents, well say that E85 is 2.30 because i dont really remember exactly how much it costs. so its 8% cheaper. woo. your mileage is about 20 percent worse once you tune for the fuel. BUT the power potential for a preformance appliaction is considerably better than 93. If you making a higher powered car and care greatly about fuel consumption, you have the wrong hobby.

 

[JrCRXHF]

I have been running it in my honda for 4 years everything is fine

the DSM just started with 2 or 3 gallons on every fill up

no problems yet i am going to switch the fuel system this summer to run e-85 all the time.

 

[baby huie]

well i can testify to e85 i have been running it in my car for over 5 months now. to run it i had to upgrade the fuel lines, afpr, pump and injectors. i went with the magna fuel 2500 hp pump and afpr. it has dash 10 feed line and dash 8 return with 2 filters one before the pump and one before the fuel rail. i have the fic 1600 cc injectors and control them with dsm link. i am on the 50 trim and i made 506hp and 520 ft pounds of torque with no knock or detonation and 21 degrees of timing maxing out the turbo. i have my dyno maps and afr maps if any one wants to see them. the only thing that you need to run e85 it is that you need to add about 30 percent fuel and mess with the fuel maps. which means youll have to upgrade afpr, injectors, and pump my car is going back in the shop for a way bigger setup and i plan running e85 on the 42r with 35 to 40 psi.

 

[JayRolla]

Yea I wish we had more pumps here in town so I could switch.

 

[JayRolla]

3. i have no idea where people are getting that ethanol has more preignition problems that gasoline. That is VERY false. Ethanol enriched fuels have much lower knock values. And take more heat to combust than gasoline.

Yes you are correct ethanol does fight knock very well but preignition and knock are two different things. You are also right when saying it does not preignite more than gasoline. What makes you wrong is saying it doesnt have problems with preigniting.

Its not the fuel but because of how much fuel you need to use. When you stuff 30% more fuel into a combustion chamber than you would gasoline you are always going to have preignition problems. The amount of fuel flow is increddible when you run ethonal. My mechanic ran out of fuel with his 1000cc injectors and almost had some 1850cc or larger made. He is doing fine with his 1600cc's I think. Its all in the tuning but you have to be carefull.

 

[Low Impedance]

honestly i thinking about producing 100% (well close to) ethanol from cornmash. The permits for the still is legal and was free last i knew. 6 dollars of mash + time = 50 gallon drum of E100! woo!

 

[gsx951]

We can probably put the issue of fuel line compatibility to bed, the SAE standard for fuel injection hoses is SAE 30R9 and those hoses all seem to feature a fluoro-polymer lining.

http://acdelcotechconnect.com/pdf/tsb/tsb_fuel_line.pdf
http://www.gates.com/common/downloads/files/Gates/brochure/TechTipsForm.pdf
"Fuel injection hose is designed for low permeation
contact with a wide variety of alcohols, alcohol fuel
blends, and diesel fuel."
"ACDelco SAE 30R9 hose uses a laminated tube of
Fluoroelastomer, as a thin wall inner layer backed by traditional compounds. This first layer helps protect the rest of the hose from permeation from aromatics, oxidized gasoline (as can occur in fuel injection
systems), ethanol or oxygenate additives and a wide range of petroleum-based products."

http://www.goodyearbeltsandhose.com/truck/inject.html
"Goodyear's Fuel Injection Hose is designed to perform with new unleaded fuels as well as with Ethanol and Methanol blends. "
" The new SAE 30R9 and 30R11 are compatible with a variety of fuels,
including gasoline, diesel and ethanol. In addition, the SAE 30R9 can be
used for sour gas and environmentally-friendly biodiesel fuel applications."

 

[JayRolla]

Good post here is a thread of guys in Colorado running the stuff. Its an ongoing info thread just for e85. We have tons of people here running it.

http://forums.coloradoracing.net/index.php?showtopic=100251&st=0

 

[2002SL1]

Ethanol (E85) is not corrosive, thats methanol, hence, you dilute it. Ethanol is a very clean burn. Also, 1000cc injectors can be maxed out running an EVO III 16g (obviously pushing it to its max potential) with E85. The fuel pump also becomes an issue. Many people recommend that you add an additional pump. Check out this site http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

Also, for those of you with dsmlink, search their forums for more information. I am planning on converting to E85 very soon (next few weeks).

Im running E85 on my car with a RS49T (50Trim) turbo. With it boosting at 30psi on 950cc injectors im hitting 90% Injector duty cycle. You would need to push a E3-16G damn hard to peak 1000cc injectors. But yeah its all about your fuel pump. Thats why I went Over Kill and have a A1000 in my car now. E85 Is not but like I said before it is not nessarly the best choice for a DD.

 

[JayRolla]

I know someone that ran e85 on a 16g and I think he was still ok with 750cc injectors.

Also to add my mechanic is now switching from dsmlink to aem because he is having problems running the 1600cc injectors on dsmlink.

 

[biglady112]

I am the 39psi mirage. We were trying to see how far an entirely stock 4G63 would go. Everyone is right. It will not knock. But your shit will blow up. I was not running much timing. 16 degrees ignition and 5 degrees base. So I guess it was a little much, 21 degrees total. We only run 12-14 degrees total in the 2G with AEM. I am not sure why Jack, Kevin and Tyler would be having problems with the 1600's. I got them to idle stock, have great drivability and even get in the upper 20's for economy.

I said it before, I won't give away my secret for free, but everything you need is there in dsmlink. Just have to feel it out. There were no videos of my car. Too busy tuning all the time to play or race. Plus it was winter so that didn't help either. I would say the car made as many as 150 pulls before the piston shattered. That would easy be enough for an entire race season.

Any fuel that will let you run 61lbs/min through a bone stock 4G63 is ok in my book. And allow 39psi and 21 degrees of timing from a SCM6176 has to be worth its weight.

Steven

 

[Low Impedance]

3.00 /gallon for 93.

damn it! i need E85 closer than 30 miles away.

 

[GVR4592]

I am the 39psi mirage. We were trying to see how far an entirely stock 4G63 would go. Everyone is right. It will not knock. But your shit will blow up. I was not running much timing. 16 degrees ignition and 5 degrees base. So I guess it was a little much, 21 degrees total. We only run 12-14 degrees total in the 2G with AEM. I am not sure why Jack, Kevin and Tyler would be having problems with the 1600's. I got them to idle stock, have great drivability and even get in the upper 20's for economy.

I said it before, I won't give away my secret for free, but everything you need is there in dsmlink. Just have to feel it out. There were no videos of my car. Too busy tuning all the time to play or race. Plus it was winter so that didn't help either. I would say the car made as many as 150 pulls before the piston shattered. That would easy be enough for an entire race season.

Any fuel that will let you run 61lbs/min through a bone stock 4G63 is ok in my book. And allow 39psi and 21 degrees of timing from a SCM6176 has to be worth its weight.

Steven

I think there's some quality control issues with the 1600's. I have the Bosch 0280 150 846 injectors from FIC and they are supposed to be a 4.7 ohm injector but mine are all above 5 ohms. I've seen another set of the same injectors that were all around 4.3 ohms. I think that might have something to do with the problems people are having with the injectors, it's kind of hit and miss. Do you know the impedance of your injectors?

 

[JrCRXHF]

Remember more than likely you will have to change your rubber fuel lines. The E85 will eat away the rubber hose very easlily. I reccomend getting hoses rated for alcohol. Just an FYI some dragsters and alot of proven racecars run something comparable to e-85.

It depends how old the car is.

88 and after the car is made to run with ethanol in the fuel so the rubber will be fine.

I have been running E-85 for 4 years now in my honda and it has been fine.

 

[mygsx2120]

I have done some research and setting my car up to run on ethanol seems ideal. It is half as cheap as gas, it is around 110 octane, and it doesn't pollute. In the past years this has became much more of a popular alternative fuel. I was just curious if anyone is trying this and what else I would need if I wanted to give it a go.

First, I know that it burns twice as fast as gasoline so huge injectors are needed. From my understanding 1000cc min up to 1600cc. Also either an external fuel pump or two 255lph walbro's. Obviously with injectors this big you would need a standalone, which dsmlink will be my next purchase anyways.

I have heard that it is corrosive, but not as much as methanol. I already have SS feed and return lines, and our gas tanks are plastic (at least those of us who are blessed with AWD). Would I need to replace anything else?

I either have or am planning on buying all of these things anyways, so it seems to me all I would need extra is another fuel pump. I know tuning is more difficult also, but that seems like a fair tradeoff. Anyone have any experience or reasons to abort this thought all together. As always, any input is apperiacted.

 

[yokotabrat]

With an Evo3 16g, you'll probably be okay with 1000ccs and the single Walbro 255hp. Any bigger of a turbo and you'll more than likely run out of pump and injector. There really isn't much needed to run E85, other than enough fuel and a way to control it (you'll need about 33% more fuel). A wideband would be good, however, you'd have to be careful and read it in lambda or convert the gasoline scale A/F ratios to an ethanol scale.

There is some good info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

Hope this helps.

 

[MoparTurbo]

WHere in the hell do you live? In the middle of a distillery? Lol. That shit is not half expensive as gas. I live in SC and we see some of the cheapest gas in the country while E85 is never more than 10 cents cheaper, but it may in your town.What happens if you mix it with gas occasionally for higher octane levels, will larger injectors/fuel pump be needed? The saying is 16g 550's and 190lph. Would you have to go bigger with 1/3 E85? Just a thought .

 

[yokotabrat]

Out here in CO, there was a place selling it for $1.99 a gallon while premium was over $3 a gallon.

You can definitely mix E85 and gas. I was doing 1/3 E85 and 2/3 premium and had good results.

Unfortunately MoparTurbo, 550s and 190 pump are probably too small, especially if you crank up the boost like you usually can when running E85. Easiest way to tell would be to log your injector duty cycle and add about 15%-20% to see where you'd end up after compensating for 1/3 E85. I was almost out of injector on my 660s and B16g.

 

[Zenja]

I really wish we had the stuff where I am.

 

[JrCRXHF]

I really wish we had the stuff where I am.

you can get it by the 55 gallon drum just like race gas

of if u have feed stock you can make your own. people have been for a long time.

I want to run MS ecu with the GM flex fuel sensor so i can put in any amount of ethanol and have the ecu scale the maps.