Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[Cs4g63]

This site might be able to answer your questions about E85. I am pretty certain that you arent going to be able use it unless you change some things.
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/questions.php

 

[flyinghighlm]

use the search option, there are tons of threads on here that already deal with the pros/cons of e85 and also how to possible convert your car to run it.

If your car is not made to handle it, it will eat your shit up! Thats why all the new cars have plastice gas tanks, different fuel line and injectors...Metal and e-85 do not get along unless it is being burnt

 

[negativezero27]

there are tons of guys here in oklahoma using that and they haven't changed a thing on their fuel set-up for e85.

 

[flyinghighlm]

there are tons of guys here in oklahoma using that and they haven't changed a thing on their fuel set-up for e85.

How often and how long...I have never heard any good news, plus people on here say that it does not work

 

[Xeiros]

there are tons of guys here in oklahoma using that and they haven't changed a thing on their fuel set-up for e85.

I suspect they're going to run into problems eventually.

 

[JayRolla]

Almost all the mustang guys here run it. And so do about 8 people with dsm's. My mechanic runs it in his 1000cc bike, SHO, and GSX. Along with two others at the shop. The fuel is incredible and has great knock characteristics. You need to be careful of preignition though. They are making over 650whp on e85 so it does work.

http://e85vehicles.com/

These guys have been running it for a while now without changing anything except the tune since you need about 33% more fuel.

 

[yokotabrat]

You need to be careful of preignition though.

I've heard this quoted before, but I'm not so sure. According to this website, the autoignition temperature of ethanol is higher than gasoline, which I would think should make it less prone to preignition than gas.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

I am wondering the same thing. I was at the pumps yesterday and looked at the E85, over here in PA it's 105 oct. So it's ok to run or no? Anyone with some real world experience.

 

[99gst_racer]

I've never been a fan, simply due to the mathematics of the situation. It's about 20-25% cheaper than normal unleaded pump gas, yet you consume 33% more of it due to it's combustion characteristics. The decrease in fuel economy outweighs the initial cost savings. Therefore, I don't see a cost benefit, though that seems to be is best selling point for some reason.....

 

[carsaval]

How many people in oklahoma are runnning it? And where are you they getting it from. And if they are using it are they using it on weekends or daily. That really makes a difference. If you use it for track purposes its one thing but daily i can't see doing so. I have heard of mixing it with gas though. I am only wondering because I live in Oklahoma and hearing about people here using it alot is news to me.

 

[zippyshoe]

I've never been a fan, simply due to the mathematics of the situation. It's about 20-25% cheaper than normal unleaded pump gas, yet you consume 33% more of it due to it's combustion characteristics. The decrease in fuel economy outweighs the initial cost savings. Therefore, I don't see a cost benefit, though that seems to be is best selling point for some reason.....

I wonder though if you compare E85, with an effective octane rating of about 105, to race gas if it becomes more cost-effective in comparison?

 

[yokotabrat]

I wonder though if you compare E85, with an effective octane rating of about 105, to race gas if it becomes more cost-effective in comparison?

That's exactly why I like it. I don't think it can be compared cost wise to pump gas in a turbocharged car that has the ability to effectively take advantage of the higher octane rating.

The biggest downfall is it's extremely taxing on a car's fuel system. Pumps and injectors that once supported pump gas tunes sometimes can't support full conversions to E85 without diluting the E85 with additional gas.

 

[99gst_racer]

I wonder though if you compare E85, with an effective octane rating of about 105, to race gas if it becomes more cost-effective in comparison?

Well, a fuels octane number represents it's resistance to premature detonation. That doesn't change the fact that it burns so much slower that you would need 33% more E85 just to get the same performance from a standard unleaded fuel.

But when comparing the price for race gas, E85 will definitely be cheaper (unless someone has a hook-up on race fuel like I do). E85 is higher octane than pump, but still lower than most race fuels. Some cars and aggressive tunes need all the octane they can get. And keep in mind that you might also need to change your entire fuel system (ei. larger fuel pump, larger injectors, larger diameter fuel line, etc....) If you were running a 650cc injector before, you would now need a 1000cc injector. It could be a hefty cost to convert everything over to perform well on E85.

 

[zippyshoe]

Well, a fuels octane number represents it's resistance to premature detonation. That doesn't change the fact that it burns so much slower that you would need 33% more E85 just to get the same performance from a standard unleaded fuel.

But when comparing the price for race gas, E85 will definitely be cheaper (unless someone has a hook-up on race fuel like I do). E85 is higher octane than pump, but still lower than most race fuels. Some cars and aggressive tunes need all the octane they can get. And keep in mind that you might also need to change your entire fuel system (ei. larger fuel pump, larger injectors, larger diameter fuel line, etc....) If you were running a 650cc injector before, you would now need a 1000cc injector. It could be a hefty cost to convert everything over to perform well on E85.

Yeah, this is why I have been reluctant to consider using E85. All the fuel system upgrades needed to support the needed increased fuel flow for the same horsepower goal is a bit overwhelming. Oh well, I'll just have to stick with premium pump for the time being.

 

[THE REAL DEAL]

i used to run it. i did for about 6 months i think. i was running rich in the first place because i had an auto ecu running 450s. it got my low mid and highs back around 100% on the logger. the last month i used it though, i heard some backfiring when going WOT but i didn't have my own logger to see what it was doing.

my engine ended up getting overheated. all my car friends kept trying to tell me it was because i was running the E85 and it made my car "run hotter" but i came to find out i had a coolant leak coming from the upper radiator nipple because it was halfway broken off.

i plan on using some this summer at the track with a 190 and SAFC. it'll work but it's all in the tune. my friend ran it in his talon for almost a year but he got greedy with the boost and pushed about 24 psi and blew the headgasket. i won't run it daily but it's good for cheap race gas.

 

[Bmxr152]

Remember more than likely you will have to change your rubber fuel lines. The E85 will eat away the rubber hose very easlily. I reccomend getting hoses rated for alcohol. Just an FYI some dragsters and alot of proven racecars run something comparable to e-85.

 

[tkelly27]

600hp? Ha! How about 1000 http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

yeah yeah, it's a V10, it's a V8... but that's insane power on cheap gas, one way or another!

My opinion, if you're building something that requires 110 octane, you are probably already going to have what you need to run ethanol. At that point, the $2.50 a gallon E85 will far outshine the $6 a gallon 110 race fuel.

If not, stay with the pump gas

 

[JayRolla]

Well, a fuels octane number represents it's resistance to premature detonation. That doesn't change the fact that it burns so much slower that you would need 33% more E85 just to get the same performance from a standard unleaded fuel.

But when comparing the price for race gas, E85 will definitely be cheaper (unless someone has a hook-up on race fuel like I do). E85 is higher octane than pump, but still lower than most race fuels. Some cars and aggressive tunes need all the octane they can get. And keep in mind that you might also need to change your entire fuel system (ei. larger fuel pump, larger injectors, larger diameter fuel line, etc....) If you were running a 650cc injector before, you would now need a 1000cc injector. It could be a hefty cost to convert everything over to perform well on E85.

E85 works better than race gas in some ways. It has great knock characteristics and the octane should be rated higher than 105. The only problem is it does cause preignition. The good thing about it is it leaves no carbon in the motor. A fully rebuilt motor 75000 miles down the road will look as clean as it did the day it was built.

Also you cant compare it to pump gas you need to compare it to race gas so its way cheaper. It works better than meth injection without the chance of it puddling in the intake mani.

 

[gsx951]

Well, a fuels octane number represents it's resistance to premature detonation. That doesn't change the fact that it burns so much slower that you would need 33% more E85 just to get the same performance from a standard unleaded fuel.

Flame propagation in alcohol is faster than with gasoline.

More E85 is required not because "it burns so much slower" but because E85 (ethanol) is an oxygenated fuel.
Slower burning fuels would require more advance not a richer mixture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Here's a handy chart stolen from http://e85forum.com

 

[gsx951]

Remember more than likely you will have to change your rubber fuel lines. The E85 will eat away the rubber hose very easlily. I reccomend getting hoses rated for alcohol. Just an FYI some dragsters and alot of proven racecars run something comparable to e-85.

I have yet to see any data supporting the idea that ethanol/gasoline blends will attack components in our fuel systems.

The Subaru guys have been playing with E85 for a couple of years now.
Check out this thread on NABISCO:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

 

[JayRolla]

E85 is corrosive to metal. It may take a long time but it can corrode. Rubber and plastic I heard where better to use. 2g's have non corrosive lines and gas tanks so it should work fine in them. There is no way to really tell. We need to wait untill some dsm's have ran it for 2 or so years. Everyone I know has had no problems running it 6-12 months.

Its the best thing you can run in your car. If you have the fuel setup it works great. Mechanic made over 600whp on it and the motor still could have ran more timing. Its like you can keep adding timing at any boost level and it still wont knock. It feels dangerous.

 

[gsx951]

Ethanol is conductive and can cause issues with some metals via galvanic corrosion.
It is speculated though, that the addition of 15% gasoline reduces or even eliminates concerns with corrosion. Most likely this would be because the addition of gasoline sufficiently raises the electrical resistance of the fuel to a point where is is no longer an efficient electrolyte.

 

[99gst_racer]

E85 works better than race gas in some ways. It has great knock characteristics and the octane should be rated higher than 105. The only problem is it does cause preignition.

That sounds a little contractive there... If it causes pre-ignition (which we all know leads to knock), then how is that considered to be a good knock characteristic?

 

[gsx951]

That sounds a little contractive there... If it causes pre-ignition (which we all know leads to knock), then how is that considered to be a good knock characteristic?

Agreed. Someone is going to have to explain that to me because I don't get it. Ethanol is higher in octane and has vastly superior latent heat of vaporization. While flame propagation is much faster than gasoline, ethanol is slower to begin combustion.

"The long-term message is clear: If 650-horsepower IndyCar Series cars that cover the length of a football field in 1 second can run safely and effectively on 100 percent fuel-grade ethanol, so can your vehicle (either 90 percent gasoline/10 percent ethanol blend or an E85 vehicle) with reduced emissions as an add-on benefit."

http://www.indycar.com/tech/ethanol.php

 

[JayRolla]

Here are some people that run it just in my area. The supercharged and turboed mustangs have been using it for a few years with no problem. The stuff works great there is really no downside if you have something to control the fuel. 1600cc injectors are pretty much needed for high hp applications.

This one is a good one.
http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6052&highlight=e85

http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7372&highlight=e85

http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7236&highlight=e85

This thread talks about how he put e85 in without changing his tune. He was hitting a 15:1 a/f and still not getting knock.
http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6385&highlight=e85