Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[diggerzmound]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/275537-thinking-about-e85.html

These guys are discussing it here.

 

[diggerzmound]

Production costs are what will stifle the high percentage ethanol fuels. Tons of water and natural gas are used in the production. The petroleum industry don't hate ethanol because they use a large amount of natural gas in the process. I think ethanol is partly to blame for our higher fuel prices today. To make ethanol and E-85 look cheaper, the cost of straight petroleum fuels had to be higher. If E-85 wasn't cheaper would anyone run it? I have seen the production numbers from a local ethanol plant, it is not a hugely profitable process. Its another government ploy.

Try to find what it costs to produce a gallon of Ethanol, it will surprise you.

 

[BUCK]

Mixing it with Regular as an Octane Booster might indeed be the best use for us - I got a quick CEL in my Expedition from the high Oxygen readings along with a 20% DROP in Fuel Mileage - It all went away when I returned to Gasoline - & yes a Documentary on TV says it takes the EQUIVALENT of 1 Gallon of Gas to produce 1.3 Gallons of Etahanol, what a JOKE - Almost as big a joke as a federally mandated 35MPG average 20 FREAKING YEARS from now~!...

Another TOTALLY biased site is...

National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition

 

[dsm3000]

i run 50/50 e85,93 and i love it. you'r tank will be OK

 

[Black_Bullet]

Yeah, I'm sure it will vary car to car and gas station to gas station. McDonald's , it's true. I like it better than the sickening smell of regular gas exhaust though.

Thats what catalytic converters are for

 

[97gstjosh]

Okay so im reading all this and i want to switch. I live in Ohio and there is nowhere to buy E85 around me. Im in Chardon. I found a place online and its $60 plus shipping for 5 gallons . So is it even worth it if I go straight thats $120 or more plus shipping for a tank. Even if I did 5 gallons a tank thats like $105 a tank. No ####ing way am I paying that.
Also what am I going to need if I go full E85. Like Specifics
Injector size
Fuel pump
Lines( sizes, from where to where)
And anything else I need
Or what do I need if I do like 5 gallons a tank? Please help me out

 

[ktmrider]

Go back to the E85 link in my post on the first page for complete coverage ( even tho it's a Subaru site it gives you the general gist ).
First and foremost is an ECU tuning package, preferably one that you can switch between maps quickly if you find yourself w/o E85. Without tuning don't waste your time ( or money ).

 

[DougR]

Ok, so after MUTCH research on E85. I decided to give it a try. now this is on a BONE STOCK 96 TSI Awd, AUTO . well it has a cone filter and Resrictor Removed. hitting 16PSI.

(Mod's in my profile are all boxed up in garage, waiting on ECU and exhaust.)


ok so back to the point.. I mixed in 30% E85 into 10 gallons of 93. (figured I would start out with a small mix and work my way up, till the car starts to lean out to mutch. then back down some)

talk about a NICE! 7$ mod! alil more background. my car would NOT spin any tires on dry ground! but after mixing in 30% and the 48* air temps outside. Launching the car at 13PSI and building to 16 by a few feet, Im now consistantly getting front wheel spin for over 10 feet!

yeayea, I know this is Nothing! compared to what my mod list will give me. but Hey for 7$!
WOW.
so any of you guys running around stock, thats wants alil extra something... mix in 30% per 10gallons. translates to 3.5 gallons. Im shure I can add maybe another gallon or so, but thats for later. I just had to give it a try.

anyways,

Merry Christmas to all of you Tuners and your familys! stay warm and safe!



Doug

 

[Whiteshadow]

Anyone who is doing this...MAKE SURE YOU HAVE SOME WAY OF MONITORING KNOCK, wheel spin isn't as cool when the car is sitting in the garage on jack stands. E85 is good stuff though I can tell you that much, my car loves it

 

[JayRolla]

Not to mention a wbo2.

 

[diggerzmound]

Were you knocking with regular fuel?

There really should be no super power boost, unless you can boost more with no knock..

 

[gsx951]

Were you knocking with regular fuel?

There really should be no super power boost, unless you can boost more with no knock..

The fuel is leaning out the stock tune.

 

[JusMX141]

Most pump gasolines these days already contain up to 10% Ethanol....and E85 fuel is 85% Ethanol. By putting 30% of E85 with gasoline that already contains up to 10% Ethanol, you're reaching dangerous levels of leanness- ESPECIALLY on a stock engine with no way to tune or monitor what's going on. I'm willing to bet your EGT's were WAY past the safe point.

Guys that are running straight E85 are using 30-35% larger injectors than the required size for gasoline, as well as a larger fuel pump to flow more volume. What that means is that even if you're running 16psi on the stock fuel system, your car should require 600-650cc injectors and a pump upgrade to not detonate.

To anyone who thinks this is a good idea, I would not try what the O.P. has posted above. You could try to mix a certain percentage of race fuel and see similar gains because the added octane wouldn't require as much timing pull at different RPM's. Race fuel with high octane will burn slower and cooler, keeping your EGT's lower....and it wouldn't damage or detonate your engine because it's all gasoline.

 

[gsx951]

The 2G ECU will adjust +/- 12.5%

There is some decent info on blending fuel and stock ECUs on NABISCO.
Some of the WRX guys have been playing this game for a long while.

 

[DougR]

no knock, no timing pull, no excessive EGT's, no probs! just pure extra CHEAP power.


Its up to YOU as the Driver and Tuner. to decide what You Do to Your setup!


E85 IS NICE!

 

[bowtiebuba350]

ill have to try it come spring

 

[JayRolla]

no knock, no timing pull, no excessive EGT's, no probs! just pure extra CHEAP power.


Its up to YOU as the Driver and Tuner. to decide what You Do to Your setup!


E85 IS NICE!

Your car must have been detonating already and getting timing pull. Adding the e85 got rid of the knock and now you have more power. Only way I see it gaining you power.

But yea if anyone is reading this, DO NOT DO WHAT THE OP IS DOING. It can be very dangerous because you can run lean.

 

[jrohner]

Here's something to watch about e85 in a vehicle not designed for it (non-FFV): American Coalition for Ethanol : News

I used to always add 2-3 gallons of e85 before filling up and now a couple of my friends do too. It helps a lot. Better timing and seems to run better overall. It leans it back slightly, but the higher octane makes it not knock at all.

I ran my 2g on just e85 (20psi w/ 680's & EvoIII 16G) and now I have a 1g that I have on e85. I just got a new 255LPH-HP fuel pump that I'm most likely installing today (I should be able to lower the injector pw a bunch then), otherwise I've been running the stock one with no problems with 750cc injectors and have been at 16psi boost but just upped to 20psi yesterday. By the way, I tune with TunerPro.

Here's a log @ 16psi a few minutes after I installed the 750's:

RPM Injector Pulse Width (ms) Knock Sum O2(V) Timing(°)
Engine Speed (RPM) Injector Pulse Width (ms) Knock Sum Oxygen Sensor (V) Timing Advance (°)
3000 5.89 0 0.74 33
3063 5.89 0 0.21 32
3125 7.94 0 0.94 31
3250 8.70 0 0.92 30
3313 9.98 0 0.92 29
3406 11.01 0 0.92 25
3563 12.29 0 0.92 24
3656 14.34 0 0.94 24
3844 15.62 0 0.92 24
4000 17.15 1 0.92 23
4250 19.20 0 0.90 25
4438 19.20 0 0.88 25
4563 19.20 0 0.88 25
4625 18.43 0 0.88 26
4781 17.92 0 0.90 26
4906 17.66 0 0.90 26
5000 17.66 0 0.88 26
5156 17.41 0 0.88 27
5281 17.41 0 0.88 27
5406 17.15 0 0.88 27
5594 16.64 0 0.88 27
5688 16.64 0 0.88 28
5844 16.13 0 0.88 28
5938 16.38 0 0.88 28
6031 15.87 0 0.88 28
6188 15.87 0 0.88 28
6219 15.62 0 0.88 28
6250 15.36 1 0.88 28
6375 15.36 0 0.88 28
6469 15.36 0 0.88 28
6438 14.85 0 0.88 28
6531 13.82 0 0.88 28


20psi last night:

2469 6.40 0 0.86 31
2625 7.42 0 0.90 30
2719 7.68 0 0.92 29
2813 8.19 0 0.92 28
2906 8.70 0 0.92 29
2969 9.22 0 0.92 27
3063 9.98 0 0.92 27
3156 10.75 0 0.92 26
3281 11.78 0 0.94 25
3375 13.06 0 0.94 24
3469 14.59 0 0.94 23
3656 15.62 0 0.94 24
3875 17.15 0 0.92 24
4063 19.97 0 0.90 25
4344 20.99 0 0.88 25
4469 20.99 0 0.86 25
4531 20.74 0 0.86 25
4625 20.48 0 0.86 26
4844 20.22 0 0.86 26
4969 19.71 0 0.86 26
5156 18.94 0 0.86 27
5281 18.94 0 0.86 27
5563 17.92 0 0.84 27
5688 17.41 0 0.84 27
5813 17.15 0 0.84 28
5875 16.38 0 0.86 28
5969 15.87 0 0.84 28

1992 TSi AWD Automatic (7-bolt), 14B, RC 750's, Socketed ECU, 1.8 Hyundai Elantra head (little more compression), new factory Mitsubishi knock sensor (old one was bad), stock everything else that I can think of.

 

[biglady112]

NOTICE TO ALL READERS. DO NOT DO THIS. I AM SPEAKING FROM EXTENSIVE E85 EXPERIENCE.

I did the EXACT same thign you are doing last year when I purchased a bone stock AWD laser. It made it no more than 600 miles before burning an exhuast valve. EVERY valve in the car was WHITE. Like they had hard water stains on them. EVERY spark plugs looked like they had been sand blasted. I repeat, do not attempt without a wideband and a superior tuning device.

Remember, I am very skilled and expereinced with E85. I was mixing 2.5-3.5 gallons to 9-11 gallons in my laser. It lasted less than a month. I thought the same thing as you.

Just recently I converted my colt over to E85. I can tell you that with dsmlink and a wideband, only a select few would be able to get this right in 450cc injectors. I had to add 30% too my fuel sliders from pretty much 3000rpm on. And then on top of that, I had to add another 20-30% of air(makes the car run richer) to get stable 11.5:1 gasoline ratios. At idle and cruise I had to add anywhere from 10-20% of air just to reach 14.7:1 gasoline ratios.

Upon just putting the fuel pump in and adding the E85(100% mixture), the wideband was reading "air" the entire time. Idle, cruise and under boost. This was with dsmlink zeroed out. The plx cannot read any leaner than 20.0:1. So take that for what its worth. And look to see how much fuel I had to add. And this is at only 12lbs/min from the 11b. I am now up to around 15-16lbs/min(17psi according to the aem 5 bar map sensor).

I can 100% guarantee that 450cc injectors WILL NOT support anything more than 19-20lbs/min if properly tuned. And when I had my galant, just off the wategate(not BCS hooked up(so lower)), I was making 19lbs/min. A T-25 and a 14b with at least a BSC still functioning is copmpletely UNSAFE to try and run E85.

DO NOT ATTEMPT ANYONE.

Steven

 

[jessesgsx]

e85 requires about 30% more fuel injected into the cylinders than regular 93octane gas. So by the time you factor that you are dumping all this extra fuel in, are you really saving money???

However, a NICE thing about e85, its likes running a 50/50 mix of pump and 110 face gas, plus ethanol goes into your engine cold, so it keeps the intake temps going into the cylinders nice and cool.

Before playing with your A/F, be sure you have some way to log/monitor this, hate to see another DSM up on jackstands.

 

[jrohner]

I probably put at least 5000 miles on my 2g gsx mixing around 2.5-3 gallons of e85 with 91, and a lot of that was before I got a wideband and way before I ever started burning chips. I always ran 20psi of boost (sometimes more) with my E3 16G (with 3" exhaust, rc550's and an SAFC2). It ran better and pulled better with some e85 in the tank. I've never had any engine trouble, just lots of trouble with the POS tranny these cars come with.

 

[JayRolla]

e85 requires about 30% more fuel injected into the cylinders than regular 93octane gas. So by the time you factor that you are dumping all this extra fuel in, are you really saving money???

However, a NICE thing about e85, its likes running a 50/50 mix of pump and 110 face gas, plus ethanol goes into your engine cold, so it keeps the intake temps going into the cylinders nice and cool.

Before playing with your A/F, be sure you have some way to log/monitor this, hate to see another DSM up on jackstands.

I actually think e85 is almost as good as straight race fuel from the numbers boost Ive seen people run on it here locally. I bet Biglady would agree. The stuff just never seems to detonate no madder how much boost or timing you through at it.

 

[JayRolla]

You should only have to replace the paper element fuel filter and 6an line from there to the rail. Stock line should work, at least I know the 1g has ok line to use on e85.

Thats crazy your hitting such low timing with those injectors. I guess with the large turbo the airflow is causing you to see less timing. On my 16g with 550's I see over 24*. I cant imagine what would happen if I installed those large of injectors. But it is a good way to get around the timing issue.

Im going to install 1150's and a maf-t since it doesnt seem to advance timing like the safc. I will use the safc for fine tuning. Cant wait to get some e85 running through this motor.

 

[carslinger]

You should only have to replace the paper element fuel filter and 6an line from there to the rail. Stock line should work, at least I know the 1g has ok line to use on e85.

Thats crazy your hitting such low timing with those injectors. I guess with the large turbo the airflow is causing you to see less timing. On my 16g with 550's I see over 24*. I cant imagine what would happen if I installed those large of injectors. But it is a good way to get around the timing issue.

Im going to install 1150's and a maf-t since it doesnt seem to advance timing like the safc. I will use the safc for fine tuning. Cant wait to get some e85 running through this motor.

You will love it !!!!

 

[jrohner]

I run my racecar on E85. I run a B-Modified on an asphalt 3/8 mile oval. The guy that my engine builder used to have dyno the engines did a lot of E85 tuning and said E85 makes about 6% more power than gas. We started breaking my engines in first on gas on the dyno and we did make more power on E85. I think my first engine had over 10% more on E85 (not much tuning on gas) and the others probably had about 5-6% more (a lot more gas tuning first).

I have also seen a couple places online that have said 5-6%hp gain.

My talon, even before advancing the timing map, felt like it had a little more power on E85. I also think E85 helps the low-mid range torque more than the peak hp.