Altered Mental Status (1G AWD 5spd)

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

I'm definitely not even close to a pro, or even highly experienced, but i can see the iscposition at 91, adjust biss screw to get to ~30. STFT is -10% up to -16% meaning you take some fuel out. just my unexperienced first glance

 

[CrackedDSM]

Also when you lock the timing at 5* it usually almost dies. Car idle with dynamic ignition timing. Usually PROBABLY something like around 15* but jumps around.

It's also a good idea to give it a few revs while it's locked IF you can while watching the light and timing mark to make sure it's not drifting while revving

Appreciate it! I did know to rev it (admittedly from all the videos that show people checking timing with lights and making sure to rev it). She's rock steady wherever I set her.



But: thread update...NOW the timing is set at 5*.

 

[curt-s]

Also when you lock the timing at 5* it usually almost dies. Car idle with dynamic ignition timing. Usually PROBABLY something like around 15* but jumps around.

It's also a good idea to give it a few revs while it's locked IF you can while watching the light and timing mark to make sure it's not drifting while revving

It should not die when at 5 BTDC for setting ignition timing or even come close/struggle. It shouldn't even really run rough. Not fantastic, but it will and should idle just fine. I've never seen a 4g63 want to die when setting base ignition timing.

Your base ignition timing is set by the timing table which, stock, is 8-13 for 1g and 5-10 on 2g and usually never needs to be changed.

 

[Anfurnyy]

It should not die when at 5 BTDC for setting ignition timing or even come close/struggle. It shouldn't even really run rough. Not fantastic, but it will and should idle just fine. I've never seen a 4g63 want to die when setting base ignition timing.

Your base ignition timing is set by the timing table which, stock, is 8-13 for 1g and 5-10 on 2g and usually never needs to be changed.

Mines always idled but not great anytime I locked timing. Not saying that's normal I guess just what I've experienced, both before and after built motor and 2 different ecus

 

[CrackedDSM]

It should not die when at 5 BTDC for setting ignition timing or even come close/struggle. It shouldn't even really run rough. Not fantastic, but it will and should idle just fine. I've never seen a 4g63 want to die when setting base ignition timing.

Your base ignition timing is set by the timing table which, stock, is 8-13 for 1g and 5-10 on 2g and usually never needs to be changed.

1Gs have an adjustable CAS that directly affects the base timing. The ECU will just assume timing is at 5*. So the timing table is just kinda applied to whatever the base timing actually is, on a 1G at least. So if you're 5* advanced, it's like adding 5* to the entire map.


At 5* BTDC it idles smooth and great. At 0* BTDC, it idled like poo, but never died. You could definitely tell it was struggling though.

 

[Stapl3]

Mr. @Stapl3 , warmed up idle log as requested sir!

Do you need it to be longer? (That's what he said?)


Also to update the thread, I finally set timing with a timing light. I've verified mechanical timing is correct already when I removed the front cover to retrieve my lost bolt, so this was the next step. Timing with the connector ground was at 10* or a little beyond. I set it to what I assume was 5*. Dumb question: 5* on a 6 bolt is lining the mark with the T on the cover, right? It really hates life idling at 5* timing, but it didn't die at least.

I really thoroughly enjoy how it idles with the deadtimes and deadtime settings Stapl3 gave. It revs fast and responds really well.

Anyway, here's the log. Thanks for looking!

The ECU is pulling a lot of fuel out at idle. You're going to want to lower your global deadtime value on the fuel tab quite a bit. I'd start by taking out about 100, so changing it from 375 to 275.

Basically all you have to do in your position is adjust the deadtime value until afratioest=wideband. The deadtime value is an arbitrary value, it's ONLY a number and doesn't matter what number you end up with.

 

[CrackedDSM]

The ECU is pulling a lot of fuel out at idle. You're going to want to lower your global deadtime value on the fuel tab quite a bit. I'd start by taking out about 100, so changing it from 375 to 275.

Basically all you have to do in your position is adjust the deadtime value until afratioest=wideband. The deadtime value is an arbitrary value, it's ONLY a number and doesn't matter what number you end up with.

Yes sir, doing that now. Will report back with new log.

 

[curt-s]

1Gs have an adjustable CAS that directly affects the base timing. The ECU will just assume timing is at 5*. So the timing table is just kinda applied to whatever the base timing actually is, on a 1G at least. So if you're 5* advanced, it's like adding 5* to the entire map.

Exactly. I've always been a 6bolt'er and this is one of those things that we have to get right. A bit of an old school way of adjusting timing across the board but not great due to the unavoidable effect on idle and just-off-idle.

 

[CrackedDSM]

The ECU is pulling a lot of fuel out at idle. You're going to want to lower your global deadtime value on the fuel tab quite a bit. I'd start by taking out about 100, so changing it from 375 to 275.

Basically all you have to do in your position is adjust the deadtime value until afratioest=wideband. The deadtime value is an arbitrary value, it's ONLY a number and doesn't matter what number you end up with.

Alrighty, got it warmed up and adjusted it to 275 from 375. The wideband gauge itself seems to stick more in the low 15's rather than in the 14's, so I'm guessing I'll need to lower it more? AirflowPerRev is also in the 0.28-0.29 range. But, lemme know!

 

[Stapl3]

Alrighty, got it warmed up and adjusted it to 275 from 375. The wideband gauge itself seems to stick more in the low 15's rather than in the 14's, so I'm guessing I'll need to lower it more? AirflowPerRev is also in the 0.28-0.29 range. But, lemme know!

That's a step in the right direction.

With the engine running and laptop connected, go all the way up top to ECU > dropdown to select 'reset fuel trims'. Then, go to the MISC tab and lock it in openloop. Then do a capture for about a minute or so and post it.

 

[CrackedDSM]

That's a step in the right direction.

With the engine running and laptop connected, go all the way up top to ECU > dropdown to select 'reset fuel trims'. Then, go to the MISC tab and lock it in openloop. Then do a capture for about a minute or so and post it.

I took it literally and logged for exactly a minute. .

 

[Stapl3]

Need it with the coolant temp fully warm.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Need it with the coolant temp fully warm.

Damn. I was hoping if I locked it in open loop I could get around that.


On it.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Need it with the coolant temp fully warm.

How's this? This thing idles so rock steady when I lock it in open loop. It idles good when not locked, but man. It purrs like a kitten when locked.

 

[Stapl3]

Wow that 275 deadtime was actually spot on. You can leave it locked in openloop, I do. You can also mess with the thresholds so closedloop is only used during cruise for example.

Now do a cruise on a flat road keeping it in the same gear and speed for 10 or so seconds, then another gear, etc etc. Gather as much crusing data like that as you can on a flat road and keeping the speed/throttle position as steady as possible.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Wow that 275 deadtime was actually spot on. You can leave it locked in openloop, I do. You can also mess with the thresholds so closedloop is only used during cruise for example.

Gotcha. Any gentle nudging as to when I should allow it to be in closedloop? The tables are new and overwhelming. I'll drive the car tomorrow and do more tweaking so I can get plenty of logs.


But that's super good to hear. Can't wait to keep going on this bad boy and get it fine tuned.


Edit: I think I got it. I'll just use the TPS table and set it to just be open loop full time at idle or sub 1500rpm, and then maybe from 1500-2500 rpm if it's below like 25% TPS, I'll let it do its closed loop thing. I'll probably change the parameters after I log a good cruise and see what my actual TPS does during cruising conditions, but that's the plan. If this is dumb, lemme know!

I can't explain or describe how stoked I am with the developments to this thing. I also did the TPSadjust thing you recommended too.

Once this is licked and the clutch/car is broken in...I think I want to retry setting up SD. But for now I'm fine with MAF.

 

[DreamChaser7]

I’ll be glad when I know what the hell y’all are talking about, .

 

[CrackedDSM]

I’ll be glad when I know what the hell y’all are talking about, .

Boy do I know that feel. I never thought I'd be the one doing this/talking this way too.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Locking in open loop basically ignores the o2 sensor, and the ecu will not update fuel trims to hold a 14.7 afr.

If you don’t like the results with closed loop - try to figure out why

 

[Stapl3]

Gotcha. Any gentle nudging as to when I should allow it to be in closedloop? The tables are new and overwhelming. I'll drive the car tomorrow and do more tweaking so I can get plenty of logs.


But that's super good to hear. Can't wait to keep going on this bad boy and get it fine tuned.


Edit: I think I got it. I'll just use the TPS table and set it to just be open loop full time at idle or sub 1500rpm, and then maybe from 1500-2500 rpm if it's below like 25% TPS, I'll let it do its closed loop thing. I'll probably change the parameters after I log a good cruise and see what my actual TPS does during cruising conditions, but that's the plan. If this is dumb, lemme know!

I can't explain or describe how stoked I am with the developments to this thing. I also did the TPSadjust thing you recommended too.

Once this is licked and the clutch/car is broken in...I think I want to retry setting up SD. But for now I'm fine with MAF.

What's the TPS table? Do you mean openloopthresholds in DA? That is the tab to use btw for adjusting when closedloop is used, the two tables above it use Loadfactor. For your comfort make a note of the 'stock' values on that tab and then have at it so you can revert. Do not be afraid to try stuff here.

I use closedloop for situations where I know I didn't bat 1000 in my tuning, which is always cruise situations. So for example a situation where I'm in 3rd gear cruising 25 in a subdivision and there's a long steep hill that I'm driving up or down, well I never tested to calibrate for that. I want the ECU to come in play aka closedloop and pick up my slack.

On openloopthresholds, basically for the top and middle table on that tab you'd look at the logged value Loadfactor and go from there. Although it's a synergy of all tables, the bottom table of TPS vs RPM is the one to manipulate in my opinion. You idle at 1100. You don't cruise around at 1500, so those values 500 1000 1500 you could set at zero [it's final output is a multiplication, and anything x 0 is 0] and the ecu will never go into closed loop during idle. From 2000 to 4000 you'd have values that are not zero, then you'd tweak those percentages of TPS used. In my situation above, you're at 2500rpm and going up a long steep hill and applying 30% throttle, do you want the ecu to apply it's changes OR fullsend on what you punched in on the mafcomp/sd table? Did you test and calibrate that situation and all the other random ones? Probably not.

Closedloop is just the ecu picking up the slack from physical indifferences. If your shit was tuned perfect, and ALL the physical parts performed perfect, closedloop wouldn't do much of anything.

 

[CrackedDSM]

What's the TPS table? Do you mean openloopthresholds in DA? That is the tab to use btw for adjusting when closedloop is used, the two tables above it use Loadfactor. For your comfort make a note of the 'stock' values on that tab and then have at it so you can revert. Do not be afraid to try stuff here.

I use closedloop for situations where I know I didn't bat 1000 in my tuning, which is always cruise situations. So for example a situation where I'm in 3rd gear cruising 25 in a subdivision and there's a long steep hill that I'm driving up or down, well I never tested to calibrate for that. I want the ECU to come in play aka closedloop and pick up my slack.

On openloopthresholds, basically for the top and middle table on that tab you'd look at the logged value Loadfactor and go from there. Although it's a synergy of all tables, the bottom table of TPS vs RPM is the one to manipulate in my opinion. You idle at 1100. You don't cruise around at 1500, so those values 500 1000 1500 you could set at zero [it's final output is a multiplication, and anything x 0 is 0] and the ecu will never go into closed loop during idle. From 2000 to 4000 you'd have values that are not zero, then you'd tweak those percentages of TPS used. In my situation above, you're at 2500rpm and going up a long steep hill and applying 30% throttle, do you want the ecu to apply it's changes OR fullsend on what you punched in on the mafcomp/sd table? Did you test and calibrate that situation and all the other random ones? Probably not.

Closedloop is just the ecu picking up the slack from physical indifferences. If your shit was tuned perfect, and ALL the physical parts performed perfect, closedloop wouldn't do much of anything.

Absolutely understood. That's what I meant was using only the TPS vs RPM table on the openloopthresholds tab in DA. That's exactly what I was thinking/trying to say but you said it 100% better than I could.


I really cannot thank you enough. Nor can I explain how f*cking excited I am. I feel like I'm finally making progress. Stoked.



Edit: I can't resist saying though, I live in Florida. There are no long steep hills here. Unless you count sand dunes, and I'm not taking the DSM up one of those.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Well, the Talons cherry has been officially popped. It made the trip through mixed city and Highway a little over and hour to meet up with a one, Mr @v8s_are_slow himself. Ironically, he has a V8 now. But he’s a good sport and knows the irony


The car did absolutely incredible on the highway at 70MPH. Perfect AFR, and would cool down to like low 180’s.

Down low at like 2000-2300rpm right at 25MPH, it leans out to like 16-17AFR so I still need to address that for low speed city driving. But otherwise, I am so proud of this thing. I had absolutely zero issues, man. Now I’m stoked for a Buc-ee’s trip as I know it’ll make it.

Of course I snapped a picture too of both our rides. I got a ride in his car and wow. I can see why people like them. So much fun.

She’s a monster truck by comparison but I don’t care. It rides perfect at this height. No speed bump or pothole issues.

Super successful drive. I love this car.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Scott took this picture and it turned out waaaaay better than mine. Figured I'd add it here too. Love it!

This was so fun, man.

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

Scott took this picture and it turned out waaaaay better than mine. Figured I'd add it here too. Love it!


View attachment 745498

This was so fun, man.

Hell yeah he's a good dude even though he got out of dsm game jkjk he still helps with guidance tuning when I bother him

 

[CrackedDSM]

Hell yeah he's a good dude even though he got out of dsm game jkjk he still helps with guidance tuning when I bother him

He told me bring my laptop and looked over some logs and gave me advice too. I wasn't gonna do it because I figured he was on vacation but he brought it up first and told me it'll give him something to do. Can't say enough good things about him. That was super cool of him to do for me on his mini-vacay.