Altered Mental Status (1G AWD 5spd)

[CrackedDSM]

Sorry you're having problems man. I know the feeling but just put your head down and truck on and you'll get it figured out.
I'm not sure what's going on with those MAP sensors though. Definitely weird. If it's doing it to both it's likely something else, although it's not impossible for both to have gone bad.

did you Reset the Direct Access tables? Take a picture of your injector deadtimes before hand so you can plug them in easier afterwards. Maybe even copy your timing table and AFR target table to an excel sheet so you can copy them back.

1: turn on closed loop. Let the car make the changes for you and manually update them later. This way at the very least the car will try to do what it needs to fuel wise to keep it running. Much less frustrating.
2: set your idle cells VE to 50 and blend into map.
3: zero you your global deadtime (figure this out for idle later on)
4: leave your global fuel where its at for now. this will likely change later on during 3rd gear stuff.

Try to start car.
The car SHOULD idle with the default DA values, minus the injector settings.

If the car idles but AFR is off, adjust global deadtime, ** NOT GLOBAL FUEL **(you'll most likely have to add fuel) until fuel trims are as close to 0 as possible. Small increments like 10usecs

I've done all of this dude. Like, what will happen is the car will idle at 10:1 AFR and die after 30 seconds. Adjusting ANYTHING VE in the idle cells does f*cking nothing, and if it does anyhting to lean it out, you can't rev the car. I've tried blending, I've tried everything.

Here's a log of me doing everything people have been asking. I put it in closed loop, didn't fix shit. Waited and adjusted deadtimes down to remove fuel, nothing. I even, for giggles, locked it back in open loop at the AFR still swings wildly from 11:1 AFR to 16:1. ON OPEN LOOP.


I'm honestly done. I'm just gonna push this car into the corner of the yard and ignore it for a few months or maybe even a year. I do everything yall are telling me to do but the car doesn't respond. At all. IDFK anymore, man.


First log: Put car in closed loop. Waited. Set deadtimes to 0. Waited. Adjusted deadtimes into negative -275 slow AF, waited.

Second log: Made drastic changes and included going WOT from Idle to catch the stutter and bog issue.

Not pictured in either log is the VE changes I made to idle, which fixed nothing. Idle sucks ass and goes rich, any throttle input car bogs and dies. I don't see how people do this, I really don't. I've triple checked everything. I even checked every nut in the exhaust system and re-boost leak checked. There is nothing out of whack mechanically that I can find. If someone could please show me on my VE map how to "blend" the cells, it would be great. Because I've tried to my limits to blend it but it takes like 38-40% VE to make it idle at a decent AFR, and no amount of blending helps it not to bog on any throttle input.

 

[92Turbski]

Did you go down the list, one by one on the Dr. Turbo install and check them off as you go?
If it's kicking your ass, take a break. Or throw the MAF back on until you gain more insight.

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

I've done all of this dude. Like, what will happen is the car will idle at 10:1 AFR and die after 30 seconds. Adjusting ANYTHING VE in the idle cells does f*cking nothing, and if it does anyhting to lean it out, you can't rev the car. I've tried blending, I've tried everything.

Here's a log of me doing everything people have been asking. I put it in closed loop, didn't fix shit. Waited and adjusted deadtimes down to remove fuel, nothing. I even, for giggles, locked it back in open loop at the AFR still swings wildly from 11:1 AFR to 16:1. ON OPEN LOOP.


I'm honestly done. I'm just gonna push this car into the corner of the yard and ignore it for a few months or maybe even a year. I do everything yall are telling me to do but the car doesn't respond. At all. IDFK anymore, man.


First log: Put car in closed loop. Waited. Set deadtimes to 0. Waited. Adjusted deadtimes into negative -275 slow AF, waited.

Second log: Made drastic changes and included going WOT from Idle to catch the stutter and bog issue.

Not pictured in either log is the VE changes I made to idle, which fixed nothing. Idle sucks ass and goes rich, any throttle input car bogs and dies. I don't see how people do this, I really don't. I've triple checked everything. I even checked every nut in the exhaust system and re-boost leak checked. There is nothing out of whack mechanically that I can find. If someone could please show me on my VE map how to "blend" the cells, it would be great. Because I've tried to my limits to blend it but it takes like 38-40% VE to make it idle at a decent AFR, and no amount of blending helps it not to bog on any throttle input.

I see in the first log, your iscposition needs adjusting via biss screw, you have your idle set for 1100 rpms, a lil high, airflowperrev at .55 is high for idle as well. Other than that I'd say to do a 3rd gear pull from 20ish mph to about 4500 rpms and post a log and see where its lining up at. dont give up on it though.

 

[Anfurnyy]

I've done all of this dude. Like, what will happen is the car will idle at 10:1 AFR and die after 30 seconds. Adjusting ANYTHING VE in the idle cells does f*cking nothing, and if it does anyhting to lean it out, you can't rev the car. I've tried blending, I've tried everything.

Here's a log of me doing everything people have been asking. I put it in closed loop, didn't fix shit. Waited and adjusted deadtimes down to remove fuel, nothing. I even, for giggles, locked it back in open loop at the AFR still swings wildly from 11:1 AFR to 16:1. ON OPEN LOOP.


I'm honestly done. I'm just gonna push this car into the corner of the yard and ignore it for a few months or maybe even a year. I do everything yall are telling me to do but the car doesn't respond. At all. IDFK anymore, man.


First log: Put car in closed loop. Waited. Set deadtimes to 0. Waited. Adjusted deadtimes into negative -275 slow AF, waited.

Second log: Made drastic changes and included going WOT from Idle to catch the stutter and bog issue.

Not pictured in either log is the VE changes I made to idle, which fixed nothing. Idle sucks ass and goes rich, any throttle input car bogs and dies. I don't see how people do this, I really don't. I've triple checked everything. I even checked every nut in the exhaust system and re-boost leak checked. There is nothing out of whack mechanically that I can find. If someone could please show me on my VE map how to "blend" the cells, it would be great. Because I've tried to my limits to blend it but it takes like 38-40% VE to make it idle at a decent AFR, and no amount of blending helps it not to bog on any throttle input.

Are you looking at your AFRatioEst? because thats just a calulation. Id almost just say delete that from views and look at LC2 Wideband and the fuel trims.
Your fuel trims are rich by about 10% is all through that whole 2nd log. and its still in closed loop through the whole thing minus the throttle blip at the end.

Your airflow/rev is super high at around .55, normal should be .25-.28 and slightly higher with cams. Not sure what's causing that. lower VE in idle cells should help with this.

That blip at the end i THINK is because you need to add some TPS delta which shoots some fuel in with rapid throttle changes. Id focus on that later and just worry about getting it to idle.

I dont know what cells you are editing in your VE table for Idle but THESE are you idle cells. its pretty much bouncing off from 63-65 at idle.

Bring these down 10% by right clicking and multiply by .90.

Highlight the idle cells and about 4 cells to the right and down from those idle cells and blend down and right.

I think it would be helpful to get a long that doesn't have ANY changes made DURING the log, we can't see what's going on and what changes are causing what.

Tuning with Ecmlink is like a big balancing game honestly. You have to juggle your VE, global fuel, and global dead time all at the same time to get to the target. Rarely do you get it right the first time.
Too high global and you'll have really low VE. Too low global and you'll have too high of VE and possibly max the table out.

After updating your VE per above:
-Check the box in the MISC tab to "disable airflow smoothing for SD"
- Set your global deadtime back to 0 again
- make sure car is up to temp

New log with no change during the log doing what you can to keep the car running - pressing the pedal if you need to.

 

[jesse12345]

Sorry I'm zero help I've just been following along to try and get this whole ecmlink thing down. I'd just take a nice relaxing break. Somehow my car idles perfect, but I still have no idea how to tune so she just sits in the garage until i get the courage. I hope you can get it figured out.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Are you looking at your AFRatioEst? because thats just a calulation. Id almost just say delete that from views and look at LC2 Wideband and the fuel trims.
Your fuel trims are rich by about 10% is all through that whole 2nd log. and its still in closed loop through the whole thing minus the throttle blip at the end.

Your airflow/rev is super high at around .55, normal should be .25-.28 and slightly higher with cams. Not sure what's causing that. lower VE in idle cells should help with this.

That blip at the end i THINK is because you need to add some TPS delta which shoots some fuel in with rapid throttle changes. Id focus on that later and just worry about getting it to idle.

I dont know what cells you are editing in your VE table for Idle but THESE are you idle cells. its pretty much bouncing off from 63-65 at idle.

View attachment 745973
Bring these down 10% by right clicking and multiply by .90.

Highlight the idle cells and about 4 cells to the right and down from those idle cells and blend down and right.

I think it would be helpful to get a long that doesn't have ANY changes made DURING the log, we can't see what's going on and what changes are causing what.

Tuning with Ecmlink is like a big balancing game honestly. You have to juggle your VE, global fuel, and global dead time all at the same time to get to the target. Rarely do you get it right the first time.
Too high global and you'll have really low VE. Too low global and you'll have too high of VE and possibly max the table out.

After updating your VE per above:
-Check the box in the MISC tab to "disable airflow smoothing for SD"
- Set your global deadtime back to 0 again
- make sure car is up to temp

New log with no change during the log doing what you can to keep the car running - pressing the pedal if you need to.

Now that I'm a little more calm, I'll explain a bit more thoroughly.

I found and edited those cells you highlighted and all the ones around them to try to smooth it out. I got it to successfully idle at stoich, but any...and I mean any kind of sudden throttle input made it bog down and die. Even adjusting TPS Delta via the DA tables didn't help. If anything, it seemed to make it worse. Gently increasing throttle position allowed it to "rev" up, but as soon as it gets past idle it goes like 22:1 AFR. That's why it dies, it has a massive lean spike/fuel cut and just cuts ignition. If I tap the throttle, it'll get past it but it acts like a two-step almost. Once it gets to 3k RPM, I can rev it and do what I want. Runs fine up there.


If I reset VE table, reset everything and touch nothing, it refuses to idle...but I can rev it however I want. Anything...and I mean literally anything I do to any setting. Whether it be Global, VE, Deadtimes, or anything...makes it idle but die on any kind of throttle input.

I'll ask again...can someone please provide me a settings file/speed density map that's already "smoothed out" with settings you think will work? I have to be doing something wrong here.

And honestly, I have no choice but to take a break. I work for the next 2 days straight, and honestly I'm not sure I'm even going to come back to this thing. Just putting a MAF on the car isn't what I want to do. If others can get SD working then I should be able to do the same. And the MAF tune wasn't perfect and had retarded issues too, so that wasn't perfect either. I want speed density, and it shouldn't be this hard...but I am at my limit of what I can do on my own. I need someone to show me at least a little with a file that I can look over so I can actually see what changes you made and how it affects it. Because watching videos and reading articles and doing checklists right now has netting exactly nothing positive. It's been two days straight of doing that with ZERO positive changes.

 

[Anfurnyy]

I'll ask again...can someone please provide me a settings file/speed density map that's already "smoothed out" with settings you think will work? I have to be doing something wrong here.

It's fairly common for the stock VE table to work decent enough to at the very least idle the car and drive it.
You should be able to just reset the VE to what ECMLink provides as a base map, setup your global fuel, injector battery adjust in the DA and then do your pin assignments and go. That's literally all I did for mine before I moved off link.

You saying that you've done that and it doesn't work is really odd though.

A break is never a bad idea. I'm there with mine too.

 

[CrackedDSM]

It's fairly common for the stock VE table to work decent enough to at the very least idle the car and drive it.
You should be able to just reset the VE to what ECMLink provides as a base map, setup your global fuel, injector battery adjust in the DA and then do your pin assignments and go. That's literally all I did for mine before I moved off link.

You saying that you've done that and it doesn't work is really odd though.

A break is never a bad idea. I'm there with mine too.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I downloaded the OEM VE table from ECMTuning's website, setup global fuel and deadtimes, try to start the car and it tries to idle at 10:1 AFR and dies. Foot on the gas pedal allows it to idle, terribly, but then we hit the wall I'm at now. Drastic changes are necessary to get it to not flood itself out, and when that happens say bye bye to being able to drive the car or rev it at all.

Here's a very short idle log where everything is zero'ed out, and the only changes are the VE table. I still had to tap the gas to keep it running though.


Funny enough, if I set the MAFComp to "2G MAF" or whatever, it actually idles and runs better. If I set it to speed density like it wants, that's when the issues come.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Alright, shoutout to @AWDGrayBird. He provided me with some maps and some settings that helped a lot.


I cleared out the deadtimes and reset them to stock again. But in conjunction I used Kevin Jewer's recommended settings for airflowsmoothing and BaseTipInTPS. I was being way too conservative with the basetipin DA table. That combined with using the OEM VE map allowed the car to start and "idle". It still won't really idle without help, but hitting the gas actually resulted in minimal bog.

From there I adjusted VE idle cells and surrounding cells and got it to rev up and not die. It's not a "clean" rev, but it's better than before. I'm nowhere near where I want to be...but I feel less like giving up.


This log is hot garbage and everywhere, but you can see my DirectAccess changes and Fuel/Speed Density table settings. Gonna keep ironing it out after my next two work days.


Anyway. The log.

 

[Stapl3]

Are you looking at your AFRatioEst? because thats just a calulation. Id almost just say delete that from views and look at LC2 Wideband and the fuel trims.

Fuel trims are a calculation also, but only used in closedloop and while applying "learned" scaling. Looking at it to calibrate a car is using quite a manipulated lens.

AFRatioEst is the A/F ratio target the ECU is trying to achieve; it's what the ECU thinks is happening and is nearly dead on accurate. The idea that Dave and Tom could come up with it is such a gift. It's the all end all tool with 'link and kinda boxed me into not exploring outside of the software.

My viewpoint is the entire game of setting these cars up is getting the output of the engine to mirror exactly what the ECU thinks is going on. So, this is the tool to use. Like you said with the big balancing act of setting it all up, it's super easy to have a few things out of wack yet obtain the desired output. AFRatioEST is the spine to keep all the variables within reason and toward a legitimate target.

After updating your VE per above:
-Check the box in the MISC tab to "disable airflow smoothing for SD"

I suggested for this to be used as there were odd spikes in AFRatioEst. Using it is acceptable according to Dave, and it did ultimately quell out the spikes while retaining the integrity of the afratioest tool.

 

[Stapl3]

Anyway. The log.

What a horrible mess.

 

[CrackedDSM]

What a horrible mess.

I did say it would be a horrible mess.


Edit: Actually I guess I said it was hot garbage. Same thing IMO.

 

[Stapl3]

I did say it would be a horrible mess.


Edit: Actually I guess I said it was hot garbage. Same thing IMO.

Load in the settings you had in the post from yesterday. https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/altered-mental-status-1g-awd-5spd.542522/post-153927530
Pull a ton a deadtime VIA the fuel tab until your wideband starts to match afratioest.

The ONLY thing you did was switch to SD. The problem was idle. This is to be corrected with deadtime, and then maybe changing idle values on the SD table from 55 to lower. There's no need for anything else IMO. You were doing so well a couple days ago.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Load in the settings you had in the post from yesterday. https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/altered-mental-status-1g-awd-5spd.542522/post-153927530
Pull a ton a deadtime VIA the fuel tab until your wideband starts to match afratioest.

The ONLY thing you did was switch to SD. The problem was idle. This is to be corrected with deadtime, and then maybe changing idle values on the SD table from 55 to lower. There's no need for anything else IMO. You were doing so well a couple days ago.

It'll be a couple days(work) but I'll do this when I'm done. I 100% agree I was doing better a couple days ago.



Serious question @Stapl3 : Is it okay to pull deadtime via the fuel tab even if it's down to like -100ish?

 

[Stapl3]

Serious question @Stapl3 : Is it okay to pull deadtime via the fuel tab even if it's down to like -100ish?

Absolutely. Use any + - number you want.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Absolutely. Use any + - number you want.

Awesome. Will do.


Really hope I can get this thing running and driving by next week. High's are like 71* and lows are in the 40's. If I miss another year of boost weather in the DSM I'm gonna be so pissed.

 

[CrackedDSM]

On a whim I bought a new compression tester. I had the realization I haven't checked compression in the entire time I've owned the car. I meant to, but wanted to wait until it broke in a little since it had 0 miles on it. I shouldn't be struggling with getting it to idle below 1000rpms, even if they are terrible BC272 cams. So, I'm curious how that comes back. Considering who built the engine and head, I don't have high hopes honestly. But...would love to be surprised!

Not gonna stop progress if the compression test results suck. I'll just get an engine built on the side and send this one to the moon in the meantime. Just figured I'd update with the plan though and more relevant info. It doesn't seem like it's misfiring or down a cylinder, I just wonder if the numbers are low because of a weird valve job or something, just low enough to affect idle and etc. We'll see though!

 

[Anfurnyy]

Really hope I can get this thing running and driving by next week. High's are like 71* and lows are in the 40's. If I miss another year of boost weather in the DSM I'm gonna be so pissed.

You got it honestly a really great starting point for tuning these cars on link is Evans Performance Academy.

He has a monthly subscription option and you get access to EVERYTHING while you have it..I think it's like $50 a month. Pay for one month and watch all his Ecmlink videos and then cancel it

 

[AWDGrayBird]

Glad those DA settings seem to have steered you in a better direction.

 

[Anfurnyy]

AFRatioEst is the A/F ratio target the ECU is trying to achieve; it's what the ECU thinks is happening and is nearly dead on accurate. The idea that Dave and Tom could come up with it is such a gift. It's the all end all tool with 'link and kinda boxed me into not exploring outside of the software

I must have been thinking it was something else then. Seeing it target 18.0 at idle when target in the DA table showed 14.7 threw me off. I can't explain why this AFRatioEST is asking for an AFR that lean

I suggested for this to be used as there were odd spikes in AFRatioEst. Using it is acceptable according to Dave, and it did ultimately quell out the spikes while retaining the integrity of the afratioest tool.

Makes sense. I did see the spikes as well.

I'm not sure what his loadfactor should be but I see it hovers around .5 when mine was .12-.15 when I had link

I also see that his AirflowPerRev is just about double what it should be. Wouldn't that indicate some sort of vacuum leak or maybe air bypass in the throttle body is set too high?

 

[Anfurnyy]

I suggested for this to be used as there were odd spikes in AFRatioEst. Using it is acceptable according to Dave, and it did ultimately quell out the spikes while retaining the integrity of the afratioest tool.

To compound on this actually i went back and looked at one of my old logs from when i was still on link and found a similar situation with Enabling this feature i got sporadic AFRatioEst's also.
Purple line is my AFRatioEst.

I also went and looked at one of his logs from the other day and indeed unchecking the box to disable smoothing definitely helped smooth it out. Interesting.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Reset all settings to OG settings that @Stapl3 told me to. Car runs like absolute dogshit, as I expected. Lowered deadtimes from +275 to 0, still won't match AFRest and won't idle. Car begins to resist revving up/goes lean enough to bog down at this amount of reduced deadtimes.


I await further instructions and settings. Nothing I do makes a positive difference. Car runs absolutely mint at +275uSec of deadtime, but nothing you do to any other table will make idle not rich as f*ck. I have no clue what to do from here as anything I do to VE table doesn't seem to work.

Please provide me with a VE table I can try, or other settings. Please.

 

[Stapl3]

You have to click "Disable MAF compensation w/SD operation" on the MAFComp tab. I am now seeing this wasn't done in your other logs and could be the smoking gun.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You have to click "Disable MAF compensation w/SD operation" on the MAFComp tab. I am now seeing this wasn't done in your other logs and could be the smoking gun.

Even if mafcomp was 0 would it still try to correct and mess with settings?


It’s worth a try, I’m going to click it like you said, I’m just trying to understand.

It makes me sad because if idle could be fixed this thing runs and revs like a dream on the same deadtime and global settings as the maf.

 

[Stapl3]

I place all my chips on that being your solution.