ECMlink 2G SD and tuning noob

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

Alright I made the switch to SD, changed all necessary setting in ECMLink (as far as I can see from reading and videos). It cranks, but wont really start, when it does it runs for a couple seconds and sputters out. Ran when parked on the MAF.

I'll post a log of cranking if anyone wants to look and see what they can see. I'm trying to learn all this on my own as I don't really have the extra money to have someone do it for me so please no hate. .

 

[CrackedDSM]

I don't understand how you're able to run using a global of 52%. Basically, by the calculations, you're negating 200cc of fuel flow at pressure. How is it not running pig rich all the time and washing your cylinders with fuel?
Your DA table is set up like mine and your global deadtime is actually close to what I've had to use to get it to idle.. but it's a huge difference between 63% and 51% global fuel. Is your AFPR set at 42.5/43.5?

I genuinely think these BC cams mess with fuel a lot. We had to pull like -650 deadtime and down to like -35% fuel for mine to even idle properly.


I’m gonna eventually get the injectors clean and replace the fuel pump at separate ventures but I’m curious if either of those fix the problem.

 

[99dsmer4g63]

FWIW for the similar setup guys, 1200cc FICs and BC 272s.

I’m currently around -54 global and 250 on DT. The injbattery is around 12v-1200 and 14v 900.

I idle around -15ish vac. My idle VE is around 55 and at 1k rpm. I know my tune isn’t perfect but figured I’d chime in with a similar setup.


-Daniel

 

[curt-s]

FWIW for the similar setup guys, 1200cc FICs and BC 272s.

I’m currently around -54 global and 250 on DT. The injbattery is around 12v-1200 and 14v 900.

I idle around -15ish vac. My idle VE is around 55 and at 1k rpm. I know my tune isn’t perfect but figured I’d chime in with a similar setup.


-Daniel

Considering your DA is 300usec less than either of our sheets, that explains your higher global deadtime.

So perhaps these FICs need a smaller global (more fuel ON time) with a DSM ECU. They tested with a "OEM Denso ECU" which, while FIC worked with ECMTuning to develop the parameters, it may not be exactly transferrable in all respects. Or it's a DSM ECU, it's cryptic. They seem to be flowing less than stated in our application, that appears certain.

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

The SD table reflects this is the Global injector fuel that is correct. There is often many factors that effect this from car to car. Not uncommon to see some variation. For example with all the 2150cc cars i tune its totally normal on e85 to end up anywhere from -58 to -64% for the car to hit target at 100 ve. The lean spike right on early is likely due to tip in needing fuel. Though i would argue in reality how often will you be going wide open at such a low rpm in that gear but you can tweak that so it doesn't. 10.5 is a smidge richer then i target on pump fuel cars but it is not bad, i have seen some extra fuel help calm some knock down. I would maybe pull a bit of timing at peak tq as often when it starts to knock it will continue too vs having it lower there and ramping in harder later i have seen ends up pulling clean. I most times build my timing maps also so at lower load there is more aggressive timing. I see this set up spool's very fast so not sure in say 1st and 2nd if that would be helpful. For example on a larger turbo car 62mm+ they benefit from this as they cannot make full boost anyway in the lower gears rolling in so the extra timing helps pick up some more tq. Either way nothing looks terrible and its definitely on the right track.

I was tending to think the same thing with the tipin because it does it while cruising too in the same "1" field. Also was thinking ill never be that low of rpms going wot anyway but would still like that smooth curve. I'll keep adding in the tipin table and see where it leads me. I thought 10.5 was a tad rich of a target too as I've seen many target 11's but figured it was just to stay safe till all settings are dialed in

 

[Justin DuBois]

I was tending to think the same thing with the tipin because it does it while cruising too in the same "1" field. Also was thinking ill never be that low of rpms going wot anyway but would still like that smooth curve. I'll keep adding in the tipin table and see where it leads me. I thought 10.5 was a tad rich of a target too as I've seen many target 11's but figured it was just to stay safe till all settings are dialed in

I run 11AFR targets, but I'm running E25 mix 94 Oct. On straight 93 pump gas, you're likely to get more knock running a leaner target.

Your minimum boost of 23 psi is the same as my maximum boost with a stock WG actuator. The stronger spring in your turbo is going to allow for higher boost, if you have fuel that can support it.

You are sitting in a spot where you need to sacrifice some timing at your lowest boost levels. Going more boost is will be counter productive if you compensate by pulling even MORE timing. I think you would benefit from E85. At WOT you are at 65% injector duty cycle - you have room to go if you change fuel.

 

[curt-s]

FWIW for the similar setup guys, 1200cc fics and bc 272s.

I’m currently around -54 global and 250 on DT. The injbattery is around 12v-1200 and 14v 900.

I idle around -15ish vac. My idle VE is around 55 and at 1k rpm. I know my tune isn’t perfect but figured I’d chime in with a similar setup.


-Daniel

On pump 91/93?

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

I run 11AFR targets, but I'm running E25 mix 94 Oct. On straight 93 pump gas, you're likely to get more knock running a leaner target.

Your minimum boost of 23 psi is the same as my maximum boost with a stock WG actuator. The stronger spring in your turbo is going to allow for higher boost, if you have fuel that can support it.

You are sitting in a spot where you need to sacrifice some timing at your lowest boost levels. Going more boost is will be counter productive if you compensate by pulling even MORE timing. I think you would benefit from E85. At WOT you are at 65% injector duty cycle - you have room to go if you change fuel.

E85 would be awesome but none is sold within 1-1.5 hrs from me gonna keep it where it is boost wise for now as I'm still on stock internals and don't wanna blow it up yet . I'll continue adding in the basetipintpsadj table and logging to see if that negates that lean dip in beginning of pulls and while cruising. Again thank you all for the valuable input and feedback I will continue following your suggestions.

Edit: no lean dip while cruising just tpsdelta hits in the 1 field while accelerating

 

[99dsmer4g63]

On pump 91/93?

Pump 93 currently with them settings.

-Daniel

 

[curt-s]

So it seems that we can't just use the -63 calculation, we are actually closer to -53 on pump.
Good to know, I'll make that change as well and see how it reacts.

 

[Justin DuBois]

E85 would be awesome but none is sold within 1-1.5 hrs from me gonna keep it where it is boost wise for now as I'm still on stock internals and don't wanna blow it up yet . I'll continue adding in the basetipintpsadj table and logging to see if that negates that lean dip in beginning of pulls and while cruising. Again thank you all for the valuable input and feedback I will continue following your suggestions.

Edit: no lean dip while cruising just tpsdelta hits in the 1 field while accelerating

Oh, that is a challenge. (Does amazon prime deliver E85 )
As long as you stay away from knock and uncontrolled detonation - you're not going to blow up on stock internals. Gasoline is more prone to do that BTW. You are more likely to lift the head, and loose a head gasket, slip a clutch, tear up a transmission with wheel hop, or have uncontrolled wheel spin on a FWD as your power increases.

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

Oh, that is a challenge. (Does amazon prime deliver E85 )
As long as you stay away from knock and uncontrolled detonation - you're not going to blow up on stock internals. Gasoline is more prone to do that BTW. You are more likely to lift the head, and loose a head gasket, slip a clutch, tear up a transmission with wheel hop, or have uncontrolled wheel spin on a FWD as your power increases.

Lol all of which i need to avoid until I get my money right

 

[curt-s]

The SD table reflects this is the Global injector fuel that is correct. There is often many factors that effect this from car to car. Not uncommon to see some variation. For example with all the 2150cc cars i tune its totally normal on e85 to end up anywhere from -58 to -64% for the car to hit target at 100 ve. The lean spike right on early is likely due to tip in needing fuel. Though i would argue in reality how often will you be going wide open at such a low rpm in that gear but you can tweak that so it doesn't. 10.5 is a smidge richer then i target on pump fuel cars but it is not bad, i have seen some extra fuel help calm some knock down. I would maybe pull a bit of timing at peak tq as often when it starts to knock it will continue too vs having it lower there and ramping in harder later i have seen ends up pulling clean. I most times build my timing maps also so at lower load there is more aggressive timing. I see this set up spool's very fast so not sure in say 1st and 2nd if that would be helpful. For example on a larger turbo car 62mm+ they benefit from this as they cannot make full boost anyway in the lower gears rolling in so the extra timing helps pick up some more tq. Either way nothing looks terrible and its definitely on the right track.

The basically stock VE table (at WOT) aside, I just wasn't expecting to see -52% (943cc @ 43.5 according to link) instead of -63 (~1200cc @ 43.5) for FIC-1200 High-Zs on pump gas. Twice now. I'm following suit because I have a feeling that's what I'm missing here, not believing the calculator is 100% correct with large or these injectors.

 

[Justin DuBois]

The basically stock VE table (at WOT) aside, I just wasn't expecting to see -52% (943cc @ 43.5 according to link) instead of -63 (~1200cc @ 43.5) for FIC-1200 High-Zs on pump gas. Twice now. I'm following suit because I have a feeling that's what I'm missing here, not believing the calculator is 100% correct with large or these injectors.

I like the calculator to make a good guess. Outside of practical measurements, its the next best thing.

As soon as you have a decent map and wide-band sensor to interrogate the system, you ignore the theory, and go with what produces real results

 

[curt-s]

I like the calculator to make a good guess. Outside of practical measurements, its the next best thing.

As soon as you have a decent map and wide-band sensor to interrogate the system, you ignore the theory, and go with what produces real results

Well, sure, I just didn't expect it to be 20% off. That's fairly large, if you ask me. Not even in the realm of a good guess. But so far it seems to be status quo for these injectors w/ a DSM ECU so I'm going with it

 

[CrackedDSM]

Still blows my mind y’all are getting like -12/-16 at idle with bc 272s. I’m beginning to wonder if I have bc280s. Because they chop hard and compression is perfect.

Idk. It runs good and doesn’t smoke so I’ll just live with low vacuum.

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

The SD table reflects this is the Global injector fuel that is correct. There is often many factors that effect this from car to car. Not uncommon to see some variation. For example with all the 2150cc cars i tune its totally normal on e85 to end up anywhere from -58 to -64% for the car to hit target at 100 ve. The lean spike right on early is likely due to tip in needing fuel. Though i would argue in reality how often will you be going wide open at such a low rpm in that gear but you can tweak that so it doesn't. 10.5 is a smidge richer then i target on pump fuel cars but it is not bad, i have seen some extra fuel help calm some knock down. I would maybe pull a bit of timing at peak tq as often when it starts to knock it will continue too vs having it lower there and ramping in harder later i have seen ends up pulling clean. I most times build my timing maps also so at lower load there is more aggressive timing. I see this set up spool's very fast so not sure in say 1st and 2nd if that would be helpful. For example on a larger turbo car 62mm+ they benefit from this as they cannot make full boost anyway in the lower gears rolling in so the extra timing helps pick up some more tq. Either way nothing looks terrible and its definitely on the right track.

On the tipin table do i just go up a click at a time or more? Also only adjust the fields in tpsdelta or across the whole table?

 

[jed344]

On the tipin table do i just go up a click at a time or more? Also only adjust the fields in tpsdelta or across the whole table?

The delta will tell you what its using for adjustment, for how much you just have to play with it

 

[curt-s]

just to bolster any other 1200 cases here for weirdness on the global..

I'm still making adjustments but, so far, what I have with my FIC 1200s is

Global: -52.3%
Using FIC DA table data for 12V and 14V
Global deadtime: 0
Idle CFT: -1.9%
SDAirflowPerRev: 0.28-0.29 (w/ BC 272s straight up)
WOT (only ~10-12psi so far) commanded 10:1, actual: 10.4:1. I need to bring global down a tiny bit if I want to maintain max 100 VE

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Using the VE adjust tool, I get a familiar 2000rpm high plateau followed by the 2500 dip across the pressure ranges.

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Normally I'd be severely questioning that global because it's supposed to be -63. I've used two separate gauges and they agree with each other. My only other thought would be my AFPR spring isn't allowing a 1:1 rise but too many of us are experiencing the same thing... FIC 1200s are calculated more like ~950s.

 

[Justin DuBois]

just to bolster any other 1200 cases here for weirdness on the global..

I'm still making adjustments but, so far, what I have with my FIC 1200s is

Global: -52.3%
Using FIC DA table data for 12V and 14V
Global deadtime: 0
Idle CFT: -1.9%
SDAirflowPerRev: 0.28-0.29 (w/ BC 272s straight up)
WOT (only ~10-12psi so far) commanded 10:1, actual: 10.4:1. I need to bring global down a tiny bit if I want to maintain max 100 VE

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Using the VE adjust tool, I get a familiar 2000rpm high plateau followed by the 2500 dip across the pressure ranges.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Normally I'd be severely questioning that global because it's supposed to be -63. I've used two separate gauges and they agree with each other. My only other thought would be my AFPR spring isn't allowing a 1:1 rise but too many of us are experiencing the same thing... FIC 1200s are calculated more like ~950s.

My RC-1000cc injectors calculate as 817cc when Global fuel is calibrated.

 

[jed344]

There are many things that effect what the global ends up being in reality. There is a crazy example that we think is caused by fuel pulses Kevin talked about on his web page where it makes a WILD spot in SD table to make it work correctly for example.

I can show multiple 2150cc cars on e85 right now with fuel press logged so it eliminates that as a factor that all have a different global. Like I think I said it's not a huge swing but give or take 5% to hit 100 VE.

From my experience have global so car hits 100VE and fuel press stays solid then had the lb/min of air flow be very accurate vs the power the car makes on the dyno. That means the ECU's assumption of air flow is accurate for the power and the fuel it added to hit the target is accurate. When doing it so the car say hits well under 100 or over 100 VE then the lb/min does not match the real power the car makes.

This may be more of a the way the stock DSM ECU works thing why we like to hit 100 VE. Myself and others who I consider extremely good with DSMLink all do it this way and it works most times to be accurate. There is one case I can think of it didn't but that comes back to the fuel pulse thing and that was a car the guy most consider the best with DSMLink for good reason tuned that then I touched and came to same conclusion and the car made WAY more power then lb/min.

That scenario is a strange one but again showed what the car and ECU wanted and it worked flawless. I myself also do not get to worked up about most tip in situation's or even if its a little off during a spool up after tip in. I have spent on my own car a obscene amount of time dialing it in and still depending on time of year it sometimes is .3-.5 off tip in into spool up for a second. I am chalking it up to limitations of the 90's hardware.

The global almost always after adjusted to hit 100VE does not say its calculated to the injector size they are. You can have the global at what the calculator says then manipulate many things so it runs just fine and hits all targets. I just always saw then that the ECU guess of air flow was wrong so to me then that was wrong.

 

[steve]

I haven't tried dissecting ECMTuning's code for fueling or looked at the factory 2G version but on a 1G ECU the fuel injector value doesn't have a lot of resolution and the error gets worse the bigger the injectors get the way it's coded.

For example down about where the 240cc injectors live there are about 2 cc/step, around the 450cc mark it's 5cc/step and one you get to 1000cc it's each step ranges about 30cc and it just gets worse from there.

It was always my impression that the DSMLink fuel global was a adjustment to that internal value and if so as you get farther from stock injector sizes the correction looses precision.

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

Loving all this info and convo! i'm still here just haven't done much in terms of tuning since i been back to work. Anyways keep it coming yall teach me a lot without even realizing it

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

Went and got another fresh tank of gas, cruised around a bit, then went and did another 3rd gear wot pull. And this is after giving it another bump in the 1 field on the basetipin table. Will add another but my basetipin table gonna start looking look crazy . Anyway, heres the wot log, if you wanna gander. Haven't messed with it much as family issues continue to arise.
There was no knock whatsoever, wondering if I should lean target to 11.0 and start fine tuning in sd table?

 

[Justin DuBois]

Went and got another fresh tank of gas, cruised around a bit, then went and did another 3rd gear wot pull. And this is after giving it another bump in the 1 field on the basetipin table. Will add another but my basetipin table gonna start looking look crazy . Anyway, heres the wot log, if you wanna gander. Haven't messed with it much as family issues continue to arise.
There was no knock whatsoever, wondering if I should lean target to 11.0 and start fine tuning in sd table?

You can start tuning the SD table. With 93oct I would stay with 10.5:1 myself, but you can always just try a change to the targets and see what you get. You want to take back more timing if you can, but you are knock limited

 

[b00zt3d spyd3r]

Alright I left wot targets where they were at 10.5:1, made some adjustments on SD table, but forgot to add to basetipin table. Lean spot down low at ~2k rpms wasn't nearly as bad though. Haven't touched timing tables yet as im still reading and learning and trying to wrap my head around it. Here's the new wot log.