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InfiniteGSX, nobody here is trying to bash you because of what you did to your car, but you are drawing fire by arguing with everyone about the performance qualities of your setup, quoting NASCAR and the :elite: Honda crowd while claiming you have proven everyone wrong with "facts". You have come out with an attack on the rest of the DSM crowd stating that it's against our "rules" and that DSMers only care about the "straight line", when you are factually wrong in almost every case. Most DSMers drive their cars on the street, therefore handling is a big factor to a lot of us.

So please. Just come on out and say: "I put these rims on my car because they look sweet as hell. I understand the car is low and the suspension tuning is less than optimal, but I'm okay with that because I like the way it looks."
 
i skipped from the the first page to this one... just wondering if anyone mentioned that toe IS used in racing to affect handling and that not all toe is bad.

for example positive toe in the rear will make the car more stable and less likely to over steer at the cost of straight line stability. Negative toe has the opposite effect.
negative toe in the front will give the car quicker turn in at the cost of actual turning radius.

you get the point.
 
It's a nice driveway ornament... Because it can't move. None of these things make any sense to me; 35r yadda yadda yadda. Does your blow off valve sound nice in your driveway? I'm not getting the point.
 
InfiniteGSX, nobody here is trying to bash you because of what you did to your car, but you are drawing fire by arguing with everyone about the performance qualities of your setup, quoting NASCAR and the :elite: Honda crowd while claiming you have proven everyone wrong with "facts". You have come out with an attack on the rest of the DSM crowd stating that it's against our "rules" and that DSMers only care about the "straight line", when you are factually wrong in almost every case. Most DSMers drive their cars on the street, therefore handling is a big factor to a lot of us.

So please. Just come on out and say: "I put these rims on my car because they look sweet as hell. I understand the car is low and the suspension tuning is less than optimal, but I'm okay with that because I like the way it looks."
What he said ^

Josh, very few are actually replying and bashing the looks of your car, even though you fully expected to get flamed for it. And you knew there would be some that would have bad things to say in this community. Most of the replies have actually been positive, mine included. The source of the negativity is the debate on whether slamming a car like that is good for real world performance. It might feel sportier than it did before, certainly more sporty than stock with less body roll, but it's not ideal for a few reasons, many of which I already stated - the biggie is you're taking away more suspension travel and that's not a good thing on a 2g. And it's not just a slight difference that only a professional driver would notice at a race track like you make it sound. The car will handle like ass compared to how it would at a proper ride height to maximize mechanical grip . But you keep stating that the car will handle great this way, regardless of what a few people keep saying. That's the only reason there's any real negativity here. Once you stop trying to prove people wrong and preach about the positive aspect of the car being this low will have on handling, everything will be a lot easier for everyone to digest.

So let's keep the performance talk out of this and focus more on the look of the car. That's all this thread should really be about since it's in the Appearance forum anyway. This isn't a set up you do if you want good handling. You do it for looks only. If it feels more sporty great, but don't mistake the sporty feel and reduced body roll for improved overall handling.
 
I think it looks good but i like the look of smaller wheels and meaty track slicks better
 
What he said ^

If you all don't mind, I'd like to take this a bit further in a serious manner.

My understanding of cosmetic mods and what people think looks cool is limited (since I grew up in a different millennium), but most seem to trace their roots back to racing. In other words, the mod IS functional in some way in some context, or is something generally seen on racing cars (such as sponsor stickers). Yes, the way that the mods are applied to street cars often don't actually achieve the original functionality, but the roots are still in racing.

I say this not only because I believe it, but because it explains why I can't stop myself from immediately thinking about the original function when I see a mod on a street car. Thus, when I see stretched tires, which I believe comes from drifting where they would stretch the tires to DECREASE lateral grip, I can't help but immediately think: "oh, so this person would rather slide than turn." And then I remind myself, if I'm driving when I see the car with stretched tires, to give said car more than the usual buffer space between us.

In any event, I'd be curious to know what other people think when they see a given mod on a street car. And, to be honest, there's a deeper and more personal reason for this. When you look at my Evo, you will soon see tiny brakes, rather than the OE disks and red Brembos. My guess is that most people (i.e., those I call the Great Unwashed in most situations) will not be impressed at all. But there will also be that small minority of people who will know that these brakes allow for 15" wheels. Yes, a majority of these few people will probably think that I drag-race, instead of rallycross (as both really want 15" wheels), but I'd still like to know how many other people think this much (too much) or this deeply (too deeply) when they see a modified car on the street.
 
If you all don't mind, I'd like to take this a bit further in a serious manner.

My understanding of cosmetic mods and what people think looks cool is limited (since I grew up in a different millennium), but most seem to trace their roots back to racing. In other words, the mod IS functional in some way in some context, or is something generally seen on racing cars (such as sponsor stickers). Yes, the way that the mods are applied to street cars often don't actually achieve the original functionality, but the roots are still in racing.

I say this not only because I believe it, but because it explains why I can't stop myself from immediately thinking about the original function when I see a mod on a street car. Thus, when I see stretched tires, which I believe comes from drifting where they would stretch the tires to DECREASE lateral grip, I can't help but immediately think: "oh, so this person would rather slide than turn." And then I remind myself, if I'm driving when I see the car with stretched tires, to give said car more than the usual buffer space between us.

In any event, I'd be curious to know what other people think when they see a given mod on a street car. And, to be honest, there's a deeper and more personal reason for this. When you look at my Evo, you will soon see tiny brakes, rather than the OE disks and red Brembos. My guess is that most people (i.e., those I call the Great Unwashed in most situations) will not be impressed at all. But there will also be that small minority of people who will know that these brakes allow for 15" wheels. Yes, a majority of these few people will probably think that I drag-race, instead of rallycross (as both really want 15" wheels), but I'd still like to know how many other people think this much (too much) or this deeply (too deeply) when they see a modified car on the street.
I typically don't put that much thought into it these days when I see cars on the street because the number of people who are actually doing a mod for something like you just described are so few, I'd be wasting my time putting that much thought into. What are the odds I'd actually be looking at a car that is actually raced on a track? I used to put more thought into it though.

And nice point on the inspiration behind most of the visual mods out there. I know I've posted before about how I think the perfect look for any street car would almost always mimic a GT or Touring race car like you'd see in World Challenge, ALMS, FIA GT, V8 Supercars, etc. The only problem is, to achieve those looks you usually have to do some major modifications to the suspension in order for the car to handle well (like moving the control arm/chassis connection points, etc), not to mention you'd be scraping everywhere - race cars aren't practical on the street. But damn they look good. And that's why the "stance" look doesn't bother me too much because they still resemble a racing look a little bit.
 
I always think about it JTMCinder. I always try to look at modified vehicles in a holistic view.
Personally I like efficiency. I want to maximize the amount of tire width on a given set of rims while still fitting correctly. The wider the rim is the more it weighs given similar materials etc. Hell I'd say put a 225 on a 7" width rim and call it done. I don't understand stretched tires on a rim. Doesn't make sense to me and I'd imagine it would cause negative handling characteristics.
Also I personally don't like 7" width rims on our cars. I think they look too narrow. I run 245s on 8" wide rims. I think it looks too narrow. But everything fits perfectly. There is no running anywhere and my wheels weigh 16.0 pounds. I like it. How much do these enormous 18x9.5 rims weigh?!
 
Stretch allows a lower drop without fender mods. The guy I bought my wheels from was LOW and thus I got 10" rears paired with 245s. Not extreme as some, but more than I personally like. It made the Coupe very tail happy in the wet.
 
See, now in that last picture the camber doesn't look quite that bad.

I think it looks pretty good. Although, I'm not a huge fan of wheels sticking out past the fenders. I still think it looks pretty good.

Good job on the looks OP. Can't agree 100% on the handling, but you definitely nailed the looks.
Because its not, the car is around an inch higher. How it will be. Ty
Can I ask who in new Mexico is building your motor(if someone is building it here)? As I finally pulled my motor last weekend, I would like to drop it off to someone this weekend. Btw +1 on the wheels looks very good.
I'm building it. I don't trust anyone in this state. Too many shady people. I have Empire Engines do my machine work but I do any building. IF you do have a shop do it, do not go to budlongs. They have screwed up too many in my experience.
Damn in that last pic the camber looks less, than my,rears,LOL.
Well it is, its lifted another inch. Thats the height that I Want it.
If it is still sitting on the blocks that's pry why it looks so good. The full weight isn't on the wheels. May still have issues with camber. But good luck looks good. I have the mustang gt 17's on my 1g. But that's just to role it around.
Well I'm going to end up adjusting the coils to this height with full weight on the tires.
There are a lot of closed minds out there. Stance looks fine, but I don't like the wheels much. Keep fighting the good fight, sir.
I love the wheels. I never thought I'd put them on my car. I was actually going to pickup the 18x9/18x10 setup with fat tires for my AWD Supercharged V8 Grand Cherokee but I sold it and these wheels were cheap.
Not a big fan of chrome/polished but it does look good.
Neither am I. But I think it looks good on a silver car.
you should be able to get 245s easily on that rim with your offset.If you don't mind me asking, why are you running 225s?
I could get that large of a tire, but not without lifting the car a lot to save my fenders/tires or adding lots of negative camber. Why, I had the tires. I looked up online what they looked like to make sure they weren't too stretched on this wide of a wheel and I went for it.
InfiniteGSX, nobody here is trying to bash you because of what you did to your car, but you are drawing fire by arguing with everyone about the performance qualities of your setup, quoting NASCAR and the :elite: Honda crowd while claiming you have proven everyone wrong with "facts". You have come out with an attack on the rest of the DSM crowd stating that it's against our "rules" and that DSMers only care about the "straight line", when you are factually wrong in almost every case. Most DSMers drive their cars on the street, therefore handling is a big factor to a lot of us.

So please. Just come on out and say: "I put these rims on my car because they look sweet as hell. I understand the car is low and the suspension tuning is less than optimal, but I'm okay with that because I like the way it looks."
I've seen these "facts" pay off when it involves camber and tire wear and handling on other vehicles of mine. While at the same time these people here that are "track stars" say that its the opposite and I in fact hurt my handling by lowering it soo low and allowing such a high degree of negative camber. But the fact that I did state that still remains is, my cars handling cannot get worse than what it was when it was, in everyone else's eyes, "perfect" and in my eyes is more Scary and unsafe. I may have lowered the car beyond the recommended height and my control arms are at a steep angle which has screwed the geometry of the car for that more "sporty look". I do do everything I can to make my car look sweet as hell. I chose these wheels because of the price and the idea of "stance" knowing that people would dislike it. But I also did my Clear Spark Plug Wire Cover with the same thought in mind, and even my candy blue and tucked engine bay. And I still have the same outlook as I did on the first post, if you don't like it.... suck it! It doesn't hurt you, or you in any way. It doesn't hurt me at all, In fact I couldn't be any happier with my car.

As I did argue the handling statements due to all the people that continuously had nothing but good things to say about my screwed up camber. But I didn't bring up the whole racing thing. I stated that I know for a fact, that my car will now handle better than it did prior. And I even stated that I may not have many hours on a track, but road racing is in my blood and its what I grew up on and I will enjoy how my car will handle better than it did prior. And I will. You all may not think it will, but I know for sure it will because Nothing could have ruined the handling more than what it was. I had no issues with my 1.5" Lowering springs, they felt good and comfortable. Just wasn't low enough for my liking.

I like low, I like sporty, sure I am building a E85 35R 4g64 and have big brakes and adjustable coil overs, but I like my car to look like this also. At the same time I still have and love my power steering and my air conditioning, even full interior and I believe in full function.

Thats me. Thank you who likes the car, wheels, tires, drop. Ty for your advice on handling aspects. Ty for your criticism, haters gonna hate LOL

I love my DSM, if you dislike it well take this.... My car currently, is renewing my faith and love into DSM's. I have owned 8 personally and worked on tons and I have been getting close to finishing that chapter and moving onto something else like Evo's. But right now my car has made me fall in love with it all over again, even in its driveway guardian form right now. So thank you.
 
Two responses to the reactions so far.

First, I have nothing against a wider track (although I don't call it "stanced"). One of the best, simple mods for an Evo X is to add 15mm Ichiba spacers. That's all you have to do to be rather competitive in STU at the local level. Yeah, the car still rolls too much, but it's way better than the OE offset and a blast to drive.

Second, I do not see how stretching a tire makes it more likely to fit. Yes, a narrower tire on wheel X is more likely to tuck than a wider tire on the same wheel, but I don't see why tire X on a wider wheel is more likely to tuck than the same tire on the correct-width wheel. No, I'm sorry, but the only effects of running a wheel too wide for the tire are (a) less acceleration (due to more rotating mass) and (b) less lateral grip (due to poor sidewall support).
 
Stretch allows a lower drop without fender mods. The guy I bought my wheels from was LOW and thus I got 10" rears paired with 245s. Not extreme as some, but more than I personally like. It made the Coupe very tail happy in the wet.


I always wondered what the reasoning was for that. I have 9.5s with 245s and haven't really experienced any tail happiness when its wet, but I can get it tail happy and keep it sliding very easily using the ebrake when its dry :D. I'm running -0.75* in the front and -1.75* (ingals kit) camber in the back.

edit: now that I think about it, when my toe was out 0.5 on both sides and the rear camber was at -2.5* the rear was very tail happy and quite dangerous in the wet conditions. zero'ing the toe and bringing the camber to near stock made it handle like its on rails in the wet though.
 
The effects of stretch on lateral grip depend on load, with more load making the effects worse. Thus, a front-heavy car on stretched tires will actually understeer more than the same car on the same tires but proper-width wheels, because the fronts lose more lateral grip to stretching than the rears.
 
Second, I do not see how stretching a tire makes it more likely to fit. Yes, a narrower tire on wheel X is more likely to tuck than a wider tire on the same wheel, but I don't see why tire X on a wider wheel is more likely to tuck than the same tire on the correct-width wheel. No, I'm sorry, but the only effects of running a wheel too wide for the tire are (a) less acceleration (due to more rotating mass) and (b) less lateral grip (due to poor sidewall support).

The "Correct Wheel" is also a non existent wheel in my case and will not achieve the same result in looks. The main idea behind the "stance" look is for a little or a lot of stretch, some camber, maybe tuck. Depending on your goals.

If I were to take the same tires and put them on the "right wheel" the whole look would change. Not only because of the tire, but in my case because again the wheel does not exist. LOL

Here's an example of the right tire and right wheel. The other side of my car as it waits for the other two wheels to show up.
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You say I've ruined the performance of the tire? Well how exactly. Stock sports cars come this way. IE: BMW M3. My father owns one, stock sized tires are stretched. The same amount of tire is touching the ground from the wrong sized wheel to the right sized wheel. There is less tire roll on the wrong sized wheel than the right sized wheel.

As for the "this is what drifters do"... well I know a few drifters. IDK how many you know. They will burn any rubber. Stretched or non stretched. high quality and especially cheap quality tires. I'm not flying around a corner yanking my steering wheel and e brake.

Here's my previous setup. 255/45/17 on 17x8+30. I didn't chose the tire size, they came on the wheels. Stock 99 Cobra Wheels and Tires.
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H&R 1.7/1.4" Springs on Tokico Illumina 5way Adjustable Shocks. Stock Sway Bars.

I took that setup out on a large cruise held by local web forums RacingSouthwest.com and TrueStreetCars.com. It was a Jemez, NM-Toas Cruise. Lots of Mountain S Curves. I didn't push it as I was in a race to win a championship. But Myself and about 100 other high end cars... STI's, Evo's, Corvettes, Drag Cars and Drift Cars as well as AutoX Cars. So we kept a decent pace and My car didn't do too bad but still would burn into turns, nose first. Which scared me. I haven't pushed this car because of that.

Thats with the "right camber" and the right tires on the right wheels and the right drop. According to what is right. Everytime I've had the wrong tires on the wrong wheels on the wrong camber the car has performed better than I have ever expected or asked for.
 
You say I've ruined the performance of the tire? Well how exactly. Stock sports cars come this way. IE: BMW M3. My father owns one, stock sized tires are stretched. The same amount of tire is touching the ground from the wrong sized wheel to the right sized wheel. There is less tire roll on the wrong sized wheel than the right sized wheel.

First off, E46 M3s came with 225/45s on 18x8s in the front and 255/40s on 18x9s in the rear, neither of which is close to stretched.

Second, not only are you wrong that wheel width has no effect on the amount of tread touching the ground, but you are also wrong in your apparent assumption that lateral grip only depends on the amount of tread touching the ground.

Third, yes, you are correct that stretched tires don't roll over. They squish (as in: the shoulder collapses), instead, which in most cases is worse.

My post was aimed at someone else and you should have ignored it. I know it's "your" thread, but it ain't your website.
 
Here's my previous setup. 255/45/17 on 17x8+30. I didn't chose the tire size, they came on the wheels. Stock 99 Cobra Wheels and Tires.
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H&R 1.7/1.4" Springs on Tokico Illumina 5way Adjustable Shocks. Stock Sway Bars.

I took that setup out on a large cruise held by local web forums RacingSouthwest.com and TrueStreetCars.com. It was a Jemez, NM-Toas Cruise. Lots of Mountain S Curves. I didn't push it as I was in a race to win a championship. But Myself and about 100 other high end cars... STI's, Evo's, Corvettes, Drag Cars and Drift Cars as well as AutoX Cars. So we kept a decent pace and My car didn't do too bad but still would burn into turns, nose first. Which scared me. I haven't pushed this car because of that.

Thats with the "right camber" and the right tires on the right wheels and the right drop. According to what is right. Everytime I've had the wrong tires on the wrong wheels on the wrong camber the car has performed better than I have ever expected or asked for.

I'm sorry, but that picture shows a 2G with terrible camber. You have too little in the front and too much in the rear, which is typical of 2Gs that have been dropped by that amount without camber kits. Of course it plowed.
 
I'm sorry InfiniteGSX you should keep the original wheels back on. They look much better.
Also I ran that exact same suspension setup. It's terrible. The Toikikos are barely better than stock. The springs were... Disappointing at best. But still my Talon on that setup with front and rear strut tower bars was ass happy. That's with your exact same setup with the same drop and all toe and camber setting within stock spec.
 
It has no camber in the front and the normal camber from lowering the car 1.5" in the rear. The Lense was a wide angle lense and it screwed the images up.
 
Just curious what your basis is behind setting front camber much lower than rear. These cars need to be setup the opposite way - front camber about double of the rear camber. I believe jtoby's statement about "too little front, too much rear" would still stand based on the above comment. And you're wondering why you're pushing...
 
i dont know how well your suspension feels with this set up but other then that i think it look sick man :thumb:
 
It has no camber in the front and the normal camber from lowering the car 1.5" in the rear.

That's what I said: too little in the front and too much in the rear, so not even close to "correct camber" or whatever you said.

edit: Yeah, what Brian said.

The Lense was a wide angle lense and it screwed the images up.

OK, so we can now add optics to the list of topics that you should not try to discuss.
 
Why not just put better looking wheels on and not worry about it, I promise that setup WILL handle like shit on that car no matter what you do to it because of all the negativity in the setup.

Although, I would like to see a pic of your camber wear on your old setup(front and rear).
 
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