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Worthless out of balance Holset turbos

Aaron91RS

Proven Member
148
0
Nov 10, 2003
St. Louis, Missouri
I think if a turbo fails people have a right to know so they can make an informed decision. If there is a better forum then the turbo forum for that please move the thread and I am sorry for posting in the wrong forum.

If you just cleaned it up to protect vendors like calan from showing their bad attitudes toward their customers then just delete the entire thread.

I stated what happened on a part I owned. I made no insults to anyone in my original post.
I even gave a name and number of a person who would have more info so stuff could be verified first person if so chosen.
I think some people on here who claim to have vast knowledge of turbos could probably have a polite 10 mins conversation with that person and maybe get to the bottom of what causes it to fail.

Instead almost everyone in this thread jumps my arse when 80% of them don't know a thing and just want to personally attack me by calling me a troll or implying other BS.
Again everyone of those people deserves to be told to knock it off but instead you just tell me.
What happened to no personal attacks? Doesn't apply to vendors? Doesn't apply to higher ups?
Again just delete the whole thread. It will save you the trouble of editing it.
 

MrBoxx

Moderator
3,727
119
Aug 19, 2005
Midland, Michigan
I cleaned it up because there's the potential that there could be some useful technical information gleaned from this problem. So far, Justin has contributed his extensive turbo knowledge to help you figure out the problem, but you haven't responded with anything you did to check your car's oiling status, or what other conditions the car has seen. Others may have a more limited experience with turbos, but their points are still valid. Treat this as a tech forum, not a bi*** session, approach it with the appropriate attitude and the flame-fests should stop. I cleaned up threads that did not contribute to finding out the cause of your problem.

My advice would be to send the turbo to Justin for further analysis. Get some second-opinion answers for what is causing your turbo failure.
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Ok so anyway, what is the oil pressure at the feed inlet and what is the drain line minimum diameter?

I'm sure some pictures of the thrust bearing and shaft will assist analysis. . . Yes, it is very strange to come on here complaining about a failure of a custom turbo swap (not even a real quality install kit is sold) and then throw it on any/every one else's shoulders to figure it out, call repair technicians, take your word for it, whatever else has been said that doesn't present clear fact. What are the conditions around the turbo? This needs to be known to push a turbo in or to use a turbo out of it's original OEM application. I really hope you can provide the pictures of the damage. And the details of how your motor affects the turbocharger in key specifications. If you're looking for healp, then you'd be providing all you know. If all you know is in this thread already, then you don't know enough to draw any conclusions.

And again, this a 4th time that it has been recommended to get a second opinion for the sake of ANY turbo you may install in the future. . .
 

Calan

DSM Wiseman
7,251
340
Jan 16, 2007
OKC, Oklahoma
If you just cleaned it up to protect vendors like calan from showing their bad attitudes toward their customers then just delete the entire thread.

I don't even know what that means... especially since I don't sell anything that has to do with turbos, and as far as I know you aren't one of my customers. All of my customers have been very pleased with the products and service I provide. If you know of one that isn't happy, please let me know and it will be remedied immediately.
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Craig It's probably a lost cause for get this issue actually resolved. Smelled like one from the onset if you ask me. . . I wouldn't even bother with the additional bickering inserted. Like Eric said, it's hurting the progress of his own thread he started. . . Almost like he wants it to :idontknow:. I still will give the benefit of the doubt and feel he doesn't. And we can all take the high road and seek a resolution; and, even better, an understanding. Again, we need to know some specifics that have already been asked. And I'll bet Justin can REALLY help with just a few key pictures. That's if the OP is even willing and able to supply them.
 

Calan

DSM Wiseman
7,251
340
Jan 16, 2007
OKC, Oklahoma
Yep. I'm not bickering at all. I was actually deleting my posts in this ridiculous thread when Eric started cleaning it up. But since my name was brought up again after the fact, I wanted to clarify for everyone that he is NOT my customer, and his last statement makes no sense at all.

I'll be perfectly happy if all of my posts are deleted from this thread, as long as all references to me are as well. Or this can stay...either way, I have better things to do. ;)
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Well he's online here right now. Give him a few moments to respond with an actual answer the fundamental questions posed. . . Either he knows or he doesn't. If he doesn't reply with an answer, then he doesn't want to answer. Then I will have to. . .
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Alright, Aaron has been online for a while. And his status changes around and he even had been viewing this thread. And he hasn't replied. It's been 30 minutes. I am going to copy/paste my PM I got from another member. I will keep his membership in anonymity for no reason but to keep him from receiving rude and otherwise annoying PMs which may ensue. . .

******* said:
I had to start a new account on dsmtuners since I lost the keys to my old one so I can't directly refute Aaron's bullshit. I used to live in Missouri and I remember him getting a Holset in May of 09 and having it rebuilt by John "His expert". I logged into gatewaydsm.org (the STL local self-stroke site for teens) and cut and pasted his remarks from last May. You may find it interesting that his oil lines have always had problems with being 'rigged' but always by a previous owner...

The following is in relation to John at turbocenter. That guy makes his living off kids that like quoting certain movies like gospel..

Feel free to make a one-time account on gateway to verify the quote if you like, I'll even give you access to my one-timer.

Here's the thread:Gateway DSM

Here's an account:

username: Snarf-snarf
passwork: buttadam

Yes it's a thundercat refference!

Here's the quote:


This should allow you to Call BULLSHIT on his claims since I can't yet.


Aaron91RS said:
THANKS! Good call, dropped it off there today.

It's not except my oil slingers were so tight he had to heat them with a tourch and press them off.
I had taken it apart until that point.


Yep it's john.
And I'll find out when it's done, but he's got enough turbos in his garage to make us all jealous.


First thing I asked him was should I run a restrictor.
He said no.
I said well what about if I am pushing 70-100psi.
He said it won't hurt the turbo, worst case it pushes some oil past the seals.





Second thing I asked him is my drain tube is only 14.5mm and some are saying I should get a bigger one.
Again he said mine was fine.

He asked what boost I pushed and I said 30psi because some people said the shafts were weak past that.
He said the shafts are fine and what happens is it gets in and out play on it.

My oil flingers were so tight he had to heat up the shaft and press them off.
Then he told me he was going to turn the shaft 5000th's of an inch and put undersize bearings in.
Again I said is that going to weaken the shaft should I buy a new shaft.
He said no the shaft will be fine, he does this all the time.

. . . . . So why does this topic always seam to be followed by such a dense cloud of contention? Some are almost trying to make up a conspiracy theory over an 'underground' option. Kind of ironic.

Anyway, If you read the first part of that thread, you see that he fried his first turbo with feed line issues. Yet managed to avoid the blame for that one here too.
 

Aaron91RS

Proven Member
148
0
Nov 10, 2003
St. Louis, Missouri
Alright, Aaron has been online for a while. And his status changes around and he even had been viewing this thread. And he hasn't replied. It's been 30 minutes. I am going to copy/paste my PM I got from another member. I will keep his membership in anonymity for no reason but to keep him from receiving rude and otherwise annoying PMs which may ensue. . .



. . . . . So why does this topic always seam to be followed by such a dense cloud of contention? Some are almost trying to make up a conspiracy theory over an 'underground' option. Kind of ironic.

Anyway, If you read the first part of that thread, you see that he fried his first turbo with feed line issues. Yet managed to avoid the blame for that one here too.
Excuse my dsl connection for being on this site all night and not responding to your post while i was asleep yet was 'online' :rolleyes:

Way to take something completely out of context.

The VERY first part of that says

"Last idiot ran a homemade oil line on the turbo(read I tried to soder a hose to a banjo bolt.)
I changed it to the correct way as soon as I got it but even then I knew the damage was done it was just a matter of time as the shaft play was bad."

and then on here in the VERY first post I say

"When my first hx40 went I was told it was out of balance.
I got it from a previous owner so not knowing the history I couldn't really say whose fault that might have been."

Again that was all the first one, not the one that failed now and I made it clear it's history. Of course you pick and choose what you want to post to make it sound like it's somehow still like this.

So good job on totally taking everything out of context and posting worthless junk. Why mods let you get away with posting useless garbage to stir the pot is beyond me. More double standard.

It's also nice to know a local DSM person is too much a coward to say anything to my face and has to go through you.

So again I ask a mod to delete the WHOLE thread since no matter what they just let 'wisemen' and others get away with personal attacks on people.
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
You and everyone can read right there why he didn't post it here himself. I chose to keep his name private as MY personal preference. Read.

EVERYTHING out of context??? Well heres the context surrounding your turbo failure. You said your oil drain is much smaller than minimum spec, you're running no bshafts, and feeding from the oil filter housing. So your oil pressure is by far, VERY out of spec. Your "expert" said that it would be fine. What a joke.

As regards "worthless junk", this is apparently why you failed to post this and why your turbo failed: since you feel that the information concerning your bs elimination with feed source being the oil filter housing AND running a drain line 30% smaller than the minimum required is "worthless junk". No wonder your turbo failed. Hey I'm overweight and don't bring up the "worthless junk" about me drinking 15 mountain dews a day and all that bacon while I lounge around surfing the internet to bring other's words into a debate that's "out of context".


OK, so we learned something in this thread. Over oiling CANNOT kill a turbo :rolleyes:. . .oh and a turbo technician stating that overpressure would cause no real problem is apparently an "expert". If a moderator didn't let me "get away" with posting the above details concerning your setup as a "double standard", then we would have yet to know the real truth. And in case you havn't realized, this site has a culture strongly supporting correct information and debunking misinformation, whether it come from someone not knowing any better or an "expert" who should know better. In the silly childishness displayed in this thread from the onset, the community still somehow got something out of it. A clear case to point to as an example and warning about knowing what you're doing to your custom turbo setup.

Who was "stirring the pot"? Posting a thread and, though several asked, still not answering the very question that will determine the cause of the issue. I see you still insulting the community of which the members straight away asked the right question to get to the bottem of your issue to help you.
 

Aaron91RS

Proven Member
148
0
Nov 10, 2003
St. Louis, Missouri
You and everyone can read right there why he didn't post it here himself. I chose to keep his name private as MY personal preference. Read.

EVERYTHING out of context??? Well heres the context surrounding your turbo failure. You said your oil drain is much smaller than minimum spec, you're running no bshafts, and feeding from the oil filter housing. So your oil pressure is by far, VERY out of spec. Your "expert" said that it would be fine. What a joke.

As regards "worthless junk", this is apparently why you failed to post this and why your turbo failed: since you feel that the information concerning your bs elimination with feed source being the oil filter housing AND running a drain line 30% smaller than the minimum required is "worthless junk". No wonder your turbo failed. Hey I'm overweight and don't bring up the "worthless junk" about me drinking 15 mountain dews a day and all that bacon while I lounge around surfing the internet to bring other's words into a debate that's "out of context".


OK, so we learned something in this thread. Over oiling CANNOT kill a turbo :rolleyes:. . .oh and a turbo technician stating that overpressure would cause no real problem is apparently an "expert". If a moderator didn't let me "get away" with posting the above details concerning your setup as a "double standard", then we would have yet to know the real truth. And in case you havn't realized, this site has a culture strongly supporting correct information and debunking misinformation, whether it come from someone not knowing any better or an "expert" who should know better. In the silly childishness displayed in this thread from the onset, the community still somehow got something out of it. A clear case to point to as an example and warning about knowing what you're doing to your custom turbo setup.

Who was "stirring the pot"? Posting a thread and, though several asked, still not answering the very question that will determine the cause of the issue. I see you still insulting the community of which the members straight away asked the right question to get to the bottem of your issue to help you.
are you illiterate or just insistent on posting blantent lies.
in THIS VERY THREAD on the previous page i said and I am doing the third, head/no BS and yet you talk about the oil filter housing like it's fact. Neither turbo was ever ran off the oil filter housing. Maybe it should be. Of course if I do that you've already shown you'll just tell me I am running too high of pressure. So thanks, you've also proven no matter what option I take you'll find something wrong with it.
Thanks for proving you can't read or comprehend. Did they miss spell wiseass under your name?

Again DELETE this thread, certain people in it are SO stubborn they will write paragraphs of made up stuff just to make up a point, and then the sheep will jump in with the 'me too' posts.
 

pj91gsx

Proven Member
2,718
9
Nov 25, 2007
Stuart, Virginia
are you illiterate or just insistent on posting blantent lies.
in THIS VERY THREAD on the previous page i said and I am doing the third, head/no BS and yet you talk about the oil filter housing like it's fact. Neither turbo was ever ran off the oil filter housing. Maybe it should be. Of course if I do that you've already shown you'll just tell me I am running too high of pressure. So thanks, you've also proven no matter what option I take you'll find something wrong with it.
Thanks for proving you can't read or comprehend. Did they miss spell wiseass under your name?

Again DELETE this thread, certain people in it are SO stubborn they will write paragraphs of made up stuff just to make up a point, and then the sheep will jump in with the 'me too' posts.
if your getting oil from the head make sure if you have a 7 bolt 1g head or 2g head that your drill out whatever it was your supposed to drill, because my friends car had the same problem and made turbos fail, because there was no oil getting to the head at all. That was from using a 7 bolt head (1g or 2g) on a 6 bolt block with arp headstuds.
 

turboboy4

Proven Member
288
1
Mar 27, 2007
Laramie, Wyoming
Well obviously you arent looking for anyone's help on this forum and anything anyone says is illiterate. We ask questions and either you dont answer or you tell everyone to call your so called "expert" You are doing this thread and the research and just as justin stated earlier you cant diagnose this turbo over the phone especialy when your "expert" doesnt know the oiling specs or any of the other specs on these considering he sad 70 to 100 psi will be fine and a 14.5mm drain will be good. Even if you are feeding the turbo off the head do you know your oil pressure at the turbo and you drain line is supposed to be a minimum of 19mm and have a max of 70 psi feed pressure. All this information people are giving you is to try to help and you are being unreasonable and trying to jump down peoples throats when you need to go back and read through some of these holset threads and get your knowledge before trying to criticize the moderators or the wisemen
 

Aaron91RS

Proven Member
148
0
Nov 10, 2003
St. Louis, Missouri
if your getting oil from the head make sure if you have a 7 bolt 1g head or 2g head that your drill out whatever it was your supposed to drill, because my friends car had the same problem and made turbos fail, because there was no oil getting to the head at all. That was from using a 7 bolt head (1g or 2g) on a 6 bolt block with arp headstuds.
The outer two mainifold bolt holes are the same size as the rest, vs bigger.
I believe that makes it an early 1g head

he said 70 to 100 psi will be fine
actually he said it would blow oil out the seals.

While that's not a good thing and it will smoke a lot does it actually make the turbo fail due to lack of oil?
 

turboboy4

Proven Member
288
1
Mar 27, 2007
Laramie, Wyoming
actually he said it would blow oil out the seals.

While that's not a good thing and it will smoke a lot does it actually make the turbo fail due to lack of oil?[/QUOTE]

If it completely blows the seals I would say it deprimental to the turbos life and it will constantly leak oil which isnt good either
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Yes as mentioned, too much pressure just as bad as not enough and will infact cause similar symptoms. If it blows out the seals, it bypasses the bearing :rolleyes: . What a real expert!

Yes! no matter which way you feed it you'll have a problem. YOU ARE SCREWED. . . Unless you quit the "i gotta be a smart ass to feel smart enough to merit their help" garbage. You are screwed either way because you need to get a sourse with more than enough flow and then use use a restrictor after having a properly sized drain. If you use no restrictor, you will blow out the bearings, they will be oil flow deprived, and the turbo will fail. If you source it from the head the same oil deprivation is likely because of poor pressure in the first place. If you use a restrictor from the ofh with a drain that is too small, you will get the pressure right but the flow will be wrong and the bearings will fail. THE OILING REQUIREMENTS HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED, QUOTED, REQUOTED, AND BEATEN TO DEATH. LOL at "illiterate".

You need to measure your oil pressure AT THE TURBO OIL FEED INLET after you have installed something remotely close to the minimum drain line size. Then you will know if the flow is right based on pressure.

Your expert blamed the turbo when you either fed from the head or fed from the ofh with no restrictor. He recommended something because he likely deals with journal bearing garretts and feels all journal bearing turbo chras are the same. This means he hasnot worked on a holset, since he doesn't know or understand the difference.

AGAIN. . . .You should check the oil pressure after installing a non-stock turbo or a turbo that will be used for non-stock flows. If you did, you would have seen the problem right away. For heaven's sake, one can do this in the driveway in neutral with a known accurate fuel pressure gauge you should already have.

No one is getting on your case for not following the right procedure. We're getting thoroughly amused concerning your attitude AFTER not following the proper procedure. You made your bed, you have to lie in it. You still didn't answer the question of where you're feeding the oil and what is the drain line size is; and yet you are acting the smart ass after someone has to speculate where it is just to help YOU in the first place. This thread is done. The REAL problem is the self-inflicted incompetence of the owner, who'd rather show his crack for all to see than to really understand where/why he screwed his own self. And ironically, you probably feel witty in your replies, though you broke your own multiple turbos with countless warnings you would find in research and then refused to answer questions about ir if you even knew the specs your setup was throwing at the turbo.
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
if your getting oil from the head make sure if you have a 7 bolt 1g head or 2g head that your drill out whatever it was your supposed to drill, because my friends car had the same problem and made turbos fail, because there was no oil getting to the head at all. That was from using a 7 bolt head (1g or 2g) on a 6 bolt block with arp headstuds.

Good point. If he checks his oil pressure while using the proper drain, he'd catch any such problem he'd have before it was too late for the third, fourth, or whatever turbo he's on now.
 

El Cuervo

15+ Year Contributor
576
25
Nov 7, 2004
Omaha, Nebraska
Aaron91RS. May I ask a couple of questions?
Regardless of where you fed oil. Head or filter housing. And regardless of what your turbo builder/mechanic/machinest said. Whether the turbo was out of balance or not.

Did you personally checked the oil pressure with an oil pressure gauge right at the oil turbo inlet feed? Yes or no.

If yes, What did the oil pressure gauge read at Idle?

What did the oil pressure gauge read at part throttle?

What did the oil pressure read at WOT?

What was the exact inlet diameter of your oil return line?

Was the oil return hole on the oil pan enlarged? If so, to what inlet diameter?

Though it would be great if you answer these question. You can choose not to answer if you don't like. Its ok.
 

Aaron91RS

Proven Member
148
0
Nov 10, 2003
St. Louis, Missouri
Went down there to drop off a part so first time I saw the pieces since disassembly.
For right now I have a cell phone video
Think it is the oil slinger that broke in to 3 pieces not the thrust bearing. I got a pic of the thrust bearing in this vid. I had a pic of the part broke in to 3 pieces but it didn't turn out.
Both journal bearings look fine I did have them more on the other vid that didn't turn out. I did pick one up for a second on this vid.
You can see zero heat marks on the front side bearing part of the shaft. Back one has heat marks from being the exhaust side.
Shaft it's self is bent.
You may have to turn your speakers up during parts of it.
YouTube - turbo.mpg
 

pj91gsx

Proven Member
2,718
9
Nov 25, 2007
Stuart, Virginia
Back one has heat marks from being the exhaust side.

I dont understand why the middle of the shaft is burned looking, you say its because it got hot from the exhaust but i think its lack of oil from blowing the seal out. Theres only one turbo ive seen thats burnt on the shaft, it had terrible play in the rear bearing and it had in and out play so i know it was burning oil on the exhaust side. like dsmmonster said it can have lack of oil from the oil bypassing and going out the exhaust.
 

JusMX141

Moderator
15,134
1,219
Dec 13, 2005
Greensburg, Pennsylvania
You can see zero heat marks on the front side bearing part of the shaft. Back one has heat marks from being the exhaust side.
Shaft it's self is bent.
Are you shitting me? Look how freakin' BLUE the shaft is in the video! That turbo was not getting anywhere near enough oil. Any turbo that is well-oiled does not permit enough heat to occur from friction in the journals to cook the shaft like that.

The shaft is bent because it was seizing while the force of the exhaust was still trying to turn the turbine wheel, and the shaft obviously was hot enough to turn blue so the amount of heat and force applied warped the shaft.

This turbo died due to a lack of oil.

Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

Change the title of this thread to "This is what happens when you don't abide by Holset oiling requirements" and stop blaming the manufacturer for your mistakes.
 

Aaron91RS

Proven Member
148
0
Nov 10, 2003
St. Louis, Missouri
So why is the other side not burnt. One side got oil and the other didn't?

Also lack of oil? So the solution is to run it off the filter housing or??
 
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