Worthless out of balance Holset turbos

[1gDSM4g63]

The shaft is bent because it was seizing while the force of the exhaust was still trying to turn the turbine wheel, and the shaft obviously was hot enough to turn blue so the amount of heat and force applied warped the shaft.

This turbo died due to a lack of oil.

I'm beginning to get worry about my HX52 not getting enough oil and crapping at high boost. So what should be sufficient diameter oil lines? The diameter on my T5 housing seems to be insufficient. They are awfully small.

 

[rampridersrider]

This thread is retarded. Back the hell off Aaron91RS, hes had a run of shit luck with his setup just like a few other people on this forum have. Shit happens. Some people are oiling their turbos from the head and never have a problem, then someone else will blow 2-3 turbos cause of it. Same thing goes for the OFH feed. I used to feed a Turbonetics turbo from the OFH with a -4 an line, no BS, no restrictor, and 15w50 oil, and it ran and boosted hard for well over 30k miles without a single issue. I traded that turbo for my Holset and it didn't have a single bit of shaftplay. Now other people can do the same thing and blow their turbo in 200 miles.


Aaron, I for one do not agree with John at TC. I firmly believe that excessive oil pressure WILL blow turbos. I've seen it happen first hand. Your issue is not an over oiling issue though. In fact, feeding from the head is supposed to be about the perfect oil pressure for a journal bearing turbo, just needs to have an inline filter pre-turbo. If I were you I would begin feeding from the OFH with a restrictor like I told you on GDSM and see what happens. These turbos are NOT junk, they are just as beastly as the MHI turbos so I would begin looking at other issues before I blame Holset.


BTW, for everyone saying the oil drain is to small, I'm using a stock 1g oil drain on my turbo, and its absolutely perfect. So suck it.

 

[Calan]

Some people are oiling their turbos from the head and never have a problem, then someone else will blow 2-3 turbos cause of it. Same thing goes for the OFH feed.

Duh.

Do you really think that every DSM is going to see the same oil pressure at the head, or at the OFH? That's why you have to MEASURE YOUR OIL PRESSURE AT THE TURBO INLET.

.oO Why is that concept so hard to understand for a lot of people?

 

[kidtsi]

Come on people, why everyone attack Aron91 rs? if y'all think is his fault, why not help him with a good explanation and not attacking him. From my experience, holset turbos fail on gasoline engines faster than in diesel ones. hes just giving feedback so we can look carefully on what turbo to get.

 

[95GreenGSX]

I wish there was a opcorn: smily, . I dont know where this guys thinks Justin doesnt know his shit? He has rebuilt my turbo before, I did everything he has recommended for this turbo to survive....and it has. I run a restrictor, a big oil return tube, and boost my hx40 to 35psi everytime I do a pull. I beat the crap out of it, but thats what I built my car for. I didnt build it to hear my bov go off everytime I let off the gas, I built it to go fast.

Those marks on the shaft means it was clearly causing friction......from you guessed it, lack of oiling. Listen to Justin, maybe even send him your turbo so he can rebuild it.
I guess common knowledge isnt so common anymore.

 

[dsm-onster]

Come on people, why everyone attack Aron91 rs? if y'all think is his fault, why not help him with a good explanation and not attacking him. From my experience, holset turbos fail on gasoline engines faster than in diesel ones. hes just giving feedback so we can look carefully on what turbo to get.

We tried. Look back. He attacked those helping him. If it were up to his contribution, this turbo wouldn't be an option . Teh good good expination comes from him answering the fundamental questions asked; for which he has no answer.


I agree with Justin for two reasons. 1) He's always right diagnosing a turbo . 2) how do you blue steel? not this. Click?

Aaron, get it right, get her back together, and boost on. This is resolved.

 

[95GreenGSX]

I agree with Justin for two reasons. 1) He's always right diagnosing a turbo . 2) how do you blue steel? not this. Click?

FYI, that's exactly how you do blue steel.

 

[1995gsx20g]

moral of the story is if your not sure then don't back it up. i read this whole thread and slowly saw aaron91 slowly change the way he posted from i know im right i trust this guy, im on the fence, ok maby you guys are right. mistakes happen, its all about how you handle them.

 

[kidtsi]

moral of the story is if your not sure then don't back it up. i read this whole thread and slowly saw aaron91 slowly change the way he posted from i know im right i trust this guy, im on the fence, ok maby you guys are right. mistakes happen, its all about how you handle them.

Good point.

 

[JusMX141]

So why is the other side not burnt. One side got oil and the other didn't?

Think about which side of the turbo generates heat, then ask yourself the question once again.

It's not that the turbo wasn't getting oil at all, it simply wasn't getting enough oil flow or pressure to keep a buffer between the bearing and the shaft under boost. Excessive heat is a product of the friction created by the shaft contacting the bearing directly without enough oil as a buffer.

Also lack of oil?

Either too little volume or too low of pressure.

So the solution is to run it off the filter housing or??

Filter housing with some type of restrictor to keep from OVER oiling the turbo, especially if your drain is smaller than the recommended Holset spec. The filter housing can easily over-pressurize the cartridge at full throttle, causing failure symptoms similar to a lack of oil because the incoming pressure can stall the shaft and literally force the shaft to contact the bearings instead of "floating" on the oil.

Back the hell off Aaron91RS, hes had a run of shit luck with his setup just like a few other people on this forum have.

But the fact that he jumps to conclusions and blames the turbo manufacturer after three of their turbos fail on his application was not the right step. Obviously something is wrong if you're going through turbos like toilet paper, and blaming the manufacturer of a turbo that was not designed with DSM use in mind is the wrong approach.

Honestly it could have been a Garrett or BW turbo and the same thing would've happened.

Come on people, why everyone attack Aron91 rs? if y'all think is his fault, why not help him with a good explanation and not attacking him.

Been there, done that.

There is more information about Holset oiling available on this site than ANY other turbo brand, yet the first step of checking oil pressure at the turbo was ignored, and now he's paying the price.

 

[Aaron91RS]

Think about which side of the turbo generates heat, then ask yourself the question once again.

Isn't almost ever turbo failure because metal contacts metal which is going to leave heat marks. At that point it is lack of oil between parts.
How is a turbo that is out of balance and then makes contact going to look any different then one that breaks and oil slinger and makes contact to one that just doesn't have oil pressure. In the end won't they all show heat marks somewhere no matter the root cause? So we are all educated in the future how about posting pics of shafts etc with different failure reasons. I imagine you have access to quite a few.

It's not that the turbo wasn't getting oil at all, it simply wasn't getting enough oil flow or pressure to keep a buffer between the bearing and the shaft under boost.

By the time it's under boost the pressure would be up to 30psi even on the head. Wouldn't it be more logical to think it was not getting enough at idle?

Either too little volume or too low of pressure.

If it's not getting enough volume or pressure off the head wouldn't it be more likely to assume this is at idle when PSI is lowest. So best case it gets a few more psi straight from the filter housing at idle. But then to save it on the high end your're going to put in a pin hole restrictor in it. Won't this have high potential of again limiting the volume at idle to the point where it dies the same way?

But the fact that he jumps to conclusions and blames the turbo manufacturer after three of their turbos fail on his application was not the right step. Obviously something is wrong if you're going through turbos like toilet paper, and blaming the manufacturer of a turbo that was not designed with DSM use in mind is the wrong approach.

You hear me say in the video and on here I want it to be an oiling problem, and you repeatedly hear the other person say it's not. I simply posted what I was told and even said I am no expert and am just relaying info.
For some reason instead of discussing the turbo that gets me useless comments and name calling from certain people.
For example even the post right above this one is more name calling of someone and zero useful information

Look at that wiggers leanto mechanic monkey hands working on your car, seriously?

 

[turboboy4]

Quote:Aaron91rs: If it's not getting enough volume or pressure off the head wouldn't it be more likely to assume this is at idle when PSI is lowest. So best case it gets a few more psi straight from the filter housing at idle. But then to save it on the high end your're going to put in a pin hole restrictor in it. Won't this have high potential of again limiting the volume at idle to the point where it dies the same way?

Our heads dont have the ability to produce enough oil pressure to keep a barrier of oil for the bearing to ride on at full boost on the other hand oiling from the OFH can be as much as 100+ psi of oil pressure far too much for the seals of the turbo resulting in blown seals and possibly a siezed shaft, just as justin implied. You need to get a -4 AN feed line from the OFH location from one of the vendors, and buy a restrictor to cut back the pressure that the turbo cartridge wil see. When you have that installed get a mechanical oil pressure gauge and check the pressure at the inlet of the turbo at idle, cruise, and WOT no more than 70 psi is spec

 

[Aaron91RS]

When you have that installed get a mechanical oil pressure gauge and check the pressure at the inlet of the turbo at idle, cruise, and WOT no more than 70 psi is spec

I have an aftermarket analog 0-100psi guage mounted to the filter housing.
So if when warmed up and I boost it and this never goes above 70 do I still need a restrictor?

 

[JusMX141]

Isn't almost ever turbo failure because metal contacts metal which is going to leave heat marks. At that point it is lack of oil between parts.

The parts will eventually wear out from use over time, or from overboosting (how most T25's fail) where the turbo is pushed to a boost level which it was never designed to be used.

If the turbo is getting enough oil, there will be no evidence of heat like that. I've already torn down MHI turbos that had HORRIBLE shaft grooving from general wear, but no bluing.

How is a turbo that is out of balance and then makes contact going to look any different then one that breaks and oil slinger and makes contact to one that just doesn't have oil pressure.

I've stated this already- the shaft vibrates, wears the bearings from contact, but does not blue from excessive heat because the oil pressure and volume is correct. It will just have appeared to "wear out" prematurely- not fail fatally at 200 miles.

By the time it's under boost the pressure would be up to 30psi even on the head. Wouldn't it be more logical to think it was not getting enough at idle?

Many times most of the damage is done while cruising at a low RPM, where the engine oil pressure is rather low.

Won't this have high potential of again limiting the volume at idle to the point where it dies the same way?

If the restrictor is the proper size, no. If it's too small (ball-bearing style), then yes.

I have an aftermarket analog 0-100psi guage mounted to the filter housing.
So if when warmed up and I boost it and this never goes above 70 do I still need a restrictor?

As long as your drain is large enough (NOT -10AN), then no.

 

[knochgoon24]

There's a lot of good info appearing in this thread.

 

[rEclipserGST]

There's a lot of good info appearing in this thread.

, wow. I wish people were a little more patience. Posting up that video on the first page would have saved a lot of words & time.

If the turbo is not balanced, then the shaft would wobble, correct? If it wobbles, then the blades/fins would make contact with the housing & scrape, correct?

Oil is in your car to transfer heat, hence the oil cooler. I mean, if you had perfect oil pressure, your seals wouldn't blow out, you wouldn't have heat scoring on your turbo shaft, and you wouldn't be

I do NOT build turbos for a living, & even I can tell you that just from READING the RAINBOW. Get a restrictor & find out your oil pressure. Good luck sir.

 

[LandoAWD]

See, this is why I left this site years ago. You give titles like "proven member" to people like this. THIS is why people call this place "tooners". Because rather than expressing your opinion in an educated way to inform a person that you feel is misinformed; people have chosen to resort to Jr High School tactics of name calling and borderline racist remarks. Sad to see nothings changed.

Come back and change them, then.

Your post report hasn't hit my email box yet...

 

[Aaron91RS]

If the restrictor is the proper size, no. If it's too small (ball-bearing style), then yes.

what size restrictor.
you can imagine i have a hard time trusting any restrictor at this point if we go with oil starvation as the cause even if the OFH is a few PSI higher then the head that had no restrictor and still starved

As long as your drain is large enough (NOT -10AN), then no.

How does a big FP green which is also a journal bearing turbo get away with taking full oil off the oil filter housing without a restrictior and not have a problem using the stock drain, but a holset gets backed up(or at least that's the theory?)

 

[JusMX141]

If the turbo is not balanced, then the shaft would wobble, correct? If it wobbles, then the blades/fins would make contact with the housing & scrape, correct?

Unbalance causes vibrations at certain shaft speeds. Severe unbalance may cause the shaft to bend, but keep in mind I've seen compressor wheels with fins completely missing and the turbo still boosted fine and had no shaft play at all...just sounded a little weird. So I take severe unbalance claims with a grain of salt.

what size restrictor.
you can imagine i have a hard time trusting any restrictor at this point if we go with oil starvation as the cause even if the OFH is a few PSI higher then the head that had no restrictor and still starved

I'm currently rebuilding a HX35/40 for a customer whose turbo sustained wheel damage that was unrelated to oiling or general wear. He was using a .075" restrictor, -4AN line fed from the filter housing, and boost was in excess of 35psi. The shaft was beginning to discolor slightly, but there was no damage to the turbo and it had absolutely no shaft play.

A .075"-.095" restrictor is ideal- the larger is better for high-boost use.

We ran a .075" restrictor on Dave's HX35 all last season, and this turbo never saw less than 30psi and was only track driven. No shaft play, no bearing wear, no shaft discoloration in the least. No smoke, no blown seals.

How does a big FP green which is also a journal bearing turbo get away with taking full oil off the oil filter housing without a restrictior and not have a problem using the stock drain, but a holset gets backed up(or at least that's the theory?)

Many MHI turbos do have issues when drawn unrestricted from the filter housing, so your statement of them "not having a problem" is a bit false.

Regardless, as stated before different turbos have different oiling requirements. Mitsubishi turbos are fed from the head on all applications at the factory; you can see the difference in how much each cartridge draws in these two photos:


MHI:

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Garrett T3:

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Notice the 5/16" hole at the bottom of the Garrett's oiling oriface? Which turbo do you think would require more oil volume than the other? Which turbo would be more of a parasitic drain on your oiling system, and would probably require a drain that is larger than stock to handle the additional incoming volume?

 

[MrBoxx]

Aaron, the type of information we're now getting into is why I kept this thread open, against your recommendation of deleting it. Some of the information Justin has been going over is actually starting to answer (and raise) some questions regarding my own turbo oiling issues. Justin, I'll probably end up PM'ing you about them later.

Let's keep the good discussion going.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

Aaron, the type of information we're now getting into is why I kept this thread open, against your recommendation of deleting it. Some of the information Justin has been going over is actually starting to answer (and raise) some questions regarding my own turbo oiling issues. Justin, I'll probably end up PM'ing you about them later.

Let's keep the good discussion going.

I agree, this thread has a lot of useful information. The title may make it difficult to find this thread while lurking/searching.

 

[91stocker]

Isnt there like 3000 threads on holsets, holset install help, holset oil trouble, holset oil lines, there are 7 full threads just on info about the holset line. Enough spoon feeding, he spent a couple grand on turbos instead of using the search button, no pity from me.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

Isnt there like 3000 threads on holsets, holset install help, holset oil trouble, holset oil lines, there are 7 full threads just on info about the holset line. Enough spoon feeding, he spent a couple grand on turbos instead of using the search button, no pity from me.

It also explains turbo failure not solely based on Holsets. Yes, there are plenty of threads regarding Holsets, he wasn't looking for pity I don't think.

 

[Aaron91RS]

Isnt there like 3000 threads on holsets, holset install help, holset oil trouble, holset oil lines, there are 7 full threads just on info about the holset line. Enough spoon feeding, he spent a couple grand on turbos instead of using the search button, no pity from me.

Not looking for pity and you have added nothing so don't waste time posting in this thread.
I've read all the threads way back. I've had a holset before half of them existed.
At the time the very same people who are posting in this thread said it was ok to run the turbo off the head if you didn't have balance shafts.

 

[JusMX141]

At the time the very same people who are posting in this thread said it was ok to run the turbo off the head if you didn't have balance shafts.

...IF you've verified that your head source has enough pressure to do so. You're leaving out key information here. I've started threads in the past asking where some have sourced their oil, what works for them, and why all turbos cannot be sourced from the head and the bottom line is you must abide by the oiling requirement set by the manufacturer of the turbo.

To reinforce my statement that all turbos have different oiling requirements, take a look at how oil sources have changed as the 4G63 has progressed over the years. The 13G and 14B Mitsubishi-branded turbos that came on 1G's were all supplied from the head. The T25 Garretts that came on 2G's were supplied from the filter housing, most likely because of Garrett's oiling requirement for that turbo. The Evo 4-9, Mitsu turbo with the source back at the head.

If you sourced a T25 from the head you'd most likely run into the same oiling issues that plagues some when sourcing a MHI turbo from the filter housing.