why such low numbers from holset? (quest for 450whp turbo)

[boostadd1ct]

doing some search on holset bep .55 hx40 and hx35
and found this.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...esults-only-complete-installed-systems-3.html

im curious as to why peoples dyno numbers are bellow 400whp with such a big turbo?

I mean I understand that the bolt on .55 housing is limiting its potential but how can it only produce the same amount of power as a e316g at about the same psi?

 

[boostadd1ct]

I'm gonna try to get my car dyno tuned this week just for this thread.

I made 310whp on a mustang dyno on 20psi with zero tuning or calibration adjustments, knock pulling timing to the neighborhood of 3-4 degrees, and fuel pressure way off the mark. This was supposed to be the baseline pull before a real tune but the tuner was impatient and said he didn't want to deal with it and that he forgot to give me a list of things that needed to be done before I got there.

I've since fixed the fuel pressure and did some tuning myself and am running 25psi now. This is all through a MAF on 91 octane.

My mods are as follows:
97 GST, Stock engine, Stock MAF, Link V3, FIC 1000cc's, Holset HX40 w/BEP bolt on housing, FP Race mani, Tial MVS 38mm w/Punishment O2 housing, FP intake, HKS SSQV4 BOV, ETS Street FMIC, Megan DP, 3in catback, Fuel Lab FPR, Walbro 255hp rewired, Dynatek ARC2, ACT Streetlite Flywheel, ACT 2600PP, SB Kevlar Disc, Shep Stg 2 Trans w/ Quiafe, Mishimoto X-line Rad

Hopefully I can get an appointment soon. If not there is a dyno day this Saturday that I may go to and see what I put down on my own tune.

hey when you dyno, can you post your results here. very interested since you mods is more average.

 

[JusMX141]

I'm not some young kid, I'm 33 years old and I work at the only steel mill in America that makes Quinch and tempered steel. We make Niche steel like Hardox, and Weldox. Ever noticed a dump truck and on the bed it says Ox body? Thats our steel Hardox. We make steel for John Deer, Trinity, American Railcar, Komatsu, Taylor, so on.

:crickets chirping:

And to the guy talking about the DSM shootout, yeah I was there and I was also referring to the Quick 16 class, the big boys.

Oh, you mean the shop-backed cars who get turbos handed to them by sponsors. Awesome.

 

[Calan]

I dynoed at 220hp, so its time for me to switch to something "designed" for my car!

Meh... I think your 220hp () 9-second 1/4 on a POS Holset is WAY more impressive than someone that just dumps 20k into a car and still hasn't run 9's. Where is the creativity in that?

 

[talondave]

Wow $20k, you better be running 8s with 1100hp with that much wasted money.

 

[boostadd1ct]

My point was that your 25psi is an arbitrary number. Even on the same engine, 25psi under one set of conditions won't create the same cylinder pressure as it will under a different set of conditions...not to mention the difference between different turbos running at the same boost level. And, comparing that same 25psi to a different car running 25psi can be a world of difference.

You need to come up with a power level that you are comfortable with, and then build to support that power level, taking into account the required airflow along with the amount and type of fuel needed to support it. The boost required to make that power will be a function of the turbo's efficiency, tune, and about 2037201309213 other factors.

You can run 25psi on a dangerous tune and make 250hp, or 21 psi on a safe tune and make 350hp. It's all about the volume of airflow and how well you utilize to make power; not the pressure.

The only thing a target boost value is good for is bragging rights in the high school parking lot.

ok hmm i think i get what your saying here. so let me put it in how I understood it and lmk if thats remotely what you said .


so just for the sake of discussion.
1.cyl pressure
lets say a small turbo at 25 psi flows 40lb/min
and a big turbo at 15psi flows 40lb/min

so cylinder pressure is the same right?

2. rpm
same rpm and same cylinder pressure.

3. heat
if both turbo is at its efficiency range then it shouldn't matter right?

but what im saying is comparing 25psi to say 35-40psi, wouldn't there be more unnecessary heat? especially on the street where the FMIC can get heatsoak.

so ideally wouldnt you want to run less boost to make power?

or does it create the same amount of heat?

does that make any sense?

 

[Calan]

lets say a small turbo at 25 psi flows 40lb/min
and a big turbo at 15psi flows 40lb/min

so cylinder pressure is the same right?

Given the exact same AFR, timing advance, fuel type, cylinder and piston profile, plug & gap, ignition energy, charge temperature, valve and intake profile, exhaust configuration, and probably 50 other variables....maybe.

2. rpm
same rpm and same cylinder pressure.

Airflow increases with RPM; but it's not necessarily linear with increasing pressure or from one turbo to another. In fact, airflow will continue to increase as RPM goes up, regardless of what the boost curve looks like...within reason of course.

3. heat
if both turbo is at its efficiency range then it shouldn't matter right?

Not sure what you are asking here.

but what im saying is comparing 25psi to say 35-40psi, wouldn't there be more unnecessary heat? especially on the street where the FMIC can get heatsoak.

Depends on the turbo and IC efficiency...if I understand your question correctly.

so ideally wouldnt you want to run less boost to make power?

Well...yeah. That's why bigger turbos make more power with less effort; they flow more air at less pressure, and are more efficient at moving that air.

****

Bottom line: You can't directly equate boost to power...it's not gonna happen. Mass airflow determines power; boost pressure is a result of getting to that amount of airflow.


(We need to stay on topic here)

 

[bastarddsm]

ok hmm i think i get what your saying here. so let me put it in how I understood it and lmk if thats remotely what you said .


so just for the sake of discussion.
1.cyl pressure
lets say a small turbo at 25 psi flows 40lb/min
and a big turbo at 15psi flows 40lb/min

so cylinder pressure is the same right?

No. Not necessarily. Cylinder pressure is torque. Airflow is HP. The big turbo will make its airflow/power with RPM, so it will probably have less cylinder pressure than the small turbo.

Cylinder pressure is more tied to boost imho. There are some generalizations you can make, but they are just that.

 

[boostadd1ct]

okay, last one then back on topic

Given the exact same AFR, timing advance, fuel type, cylinder and piston profile, plug & gap, ignition energy, charge temperature, valve and intake profile, exhaust configuration, and probably 50 other variables....maybe.

well if lets say everything was the same. what would make things different? if its flowing the same amount of air?

Airflow increases with RPM; but it's not necessarily linear with increasing pressure or from one turbo to another. In fact, airflow will continue to increase as RPM goes up, regardless of what the boost curve looks like...within reason of course.

Not sure what you are asking here.

well I guess what im asking is, if the turbo efficiency range is from 15 to 25 psi for an application. then the heat produced would be minimal when comparing 15 vs 25? or still subjective

Bottom line: You can't directly equate boost to power...it's not gonna happen. Mass airflow determines power; boost pressure is a result of getting to that amount of airflow.

(We need to stay on topic here)

interesting, would running 40psi on a hx40 or 35 produced a lot of heat? compare to 30psi? really interested on how safe 40psi on a dd is. or even at 35psi. with e85.

what do you think of water injection to keep it cooler?

 

[bastarddsm]

o






well I guess what im asking is, if the turbo efficiency range is from 15 to 25 psi for an application. then the heat produced would be minimal when comparing 15 vs 25? or still subjective

No, Turbo efficiency only indicates how much of the shaft power is put into compressing the air, the rest is put into heating the air. Now the kicker is, the pressure and the amount of air determines how hot the air gets, then the efficiancy adds in on top of that.

Read this Compressor Efficiency and More

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Lunacy redacted

You are 33 years old with this much of a stunted thought process?

20K into your DSM? Where's the results?

All you've shown here is that you know how to run your mouth and piss away money.

You realize that Holset from Cummins Turbo Technology is what powers the 6BT in the Dodge Ram?

That a new HX52 from a dealer is almost $1900?

Pure ignorance.

I've run MHI, Garrett, Borg Warner, etc. Now I'm running a Holset. Being that they are an OE manufacturer it's a far cry to call them junk.

Sounds like maybe you got your ass waxed by one of these $300 dollar diesel tractor turbos and it hasn't quite healed yet

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

The tuner I'm going with is going out of town today so I won't be able to hit the dyno till late next week.

 

[Boostdriven]

Damn I love this tread
Correct me if I'm wrong but 6 blade hx40 wheel has be out for some time now, at least 6-7 years and this wheel has made some impressive power. But if you look 6-7 years back the all might garrett wheels in the same size could barely scratch the surface of what the holset can put out. I'm sure now since technology is more advanced they may make wheels that are better then holset but you can't compare a 98 civic with a 2012 cobalt though I will take the civic over the cobalt
If you look at the design of a 6 blade its a work of art, for a wheel that is 60/86 (84mm to be exact) to be making 650+ awhp is impressive hands down. The first day I put my holset on I was hooked. I want to say I had that wheel for over 6 years and to me there was nothing like it, the sound alone will make you fall in love with it and I'm not even talking about the spool and the power it puts out

I never liked garrett and I don't think I ever will and I don't care what kind of wheels they make now. I will buy a Borg warner turbo any day over a garrett, that's just my personal opinion look at BEP for example, for some reason they didn't take garrett turbos and applied their design in to their turbos but instead used a Borg warner a diesel production turbo and from what I've seen those are some bad ass turbos, even their hx40 batmowheel resembles a BW compressor wheel design. By the way they started out with holset turbos, I bought my holset from them years ago.

 

[dsmcurse]

Anybody that's ran a holeset will say good things about. Even if they did make the switch to somethin else. Holeset turbos are awsome especially the hx line up. I swear the only people who talk S on 'em are people who have NEVER HAD A HOLESET STRAPPED TO THERE ENGINE. Period.

Anybody that's ran a holeset will say good things about. Even if they did make the switch to somethin else. Holeset turbos are awsome especially the hx line up. I swear the only people who talk S on 'em are people who have NEVER HAD A HOLESET STRAPPED TO THERE ENGINE. Period.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Well i went to English to hit the Dyno yesterday and with the .55AR BEP i am less then impressed, for sure. 16G power with out the quick spool full boost by 4k. However i did have some base timing issues that contributed to the low number, which isnt the tuners fault. (7 bolt crank pully with a 6 bolt motor) throwing base timing off, and my BC272s are less than ideal for my goals. We stopped at 24psi with an AFR around 11:5-11.8:1 which seemed really lean to me, but it made good power with minimal knock. We stopped at 24psi because that's where we started to see back pressure. When i can, ill be switching to the .70AR T3 BEP and hoping for 600AWHP. with GSC S2's and a SMIM and low 10s. Aaron at English said that this setup as it sits even though it didn't quite break 400AWHP, that it should be good for an 11.6 1/4 mile. This is a conservative SAFE pump gas tune. On C16 and 40psi i think things will be screaming quite a bit more. However the car does feel really good for the numbers it did make. i am contemplating enriching her up and turning up the boost and see what happens. (And wont be hitting a dyno for months but will be making more power.) All in all, my mods don't all quite complement each other as they should so there will be some tweaking.

OP. to your original question why are Holsets making 16g numbers. It's most likely for reasons like me, where your tuner/dyno is quite far away and you cant make easy quick dyno trips after you make changes, and when you got there you found issues you didn't know you had before you arrived. Also finding out your restrictions with other parameters logged. I love my Holset... i just don't love this .55AR bep bolt on housing. This turbo will SCREAM in a T3 setup at 40psi on C16. And make 9s on my car if it were stripped down.

There is DEFINITLY potential with these Holsets, just not everyone takes full advantage of them. i will be trying to max this turbo out over the next year or so and i hope to be a spot or two behind Talondaves current record when i am finished modding.

 

[red_devil]

Well i went to English to hit the Dyno yesterday and with the .55AR BEP i am less then impressed, for sure. 16G power with out the quick spool full boost by 4k. However i did have some base timing issues that contributed to the low number, which isnt the tuners fault. (7 bolt crank pully with a 6 bolt motor) throwing base timing off, and my BC272s are less than ideal for my goals. We stopped at 24psi with an AFR around 11:5-11.8:1 which seemed really lean to me, but it made good power with minimal knock. We stopped at 24psi because that's where we started to see back pressure. When i can, ill be switching to the .70AR T3 BEP and hoping for 600AWHP. with GSC S2's and a SMIM and low 10s. Aaron at English said that this setup as it sits even though it didn't quite break 400AWHP, that it should be good for an 11.6 1/4 mile. This is a conservative SAFE pump gas tune. On C16 and 40psi i think things will be screaming quite a bit more. However the car does feel really good for the numbers it did make. i am contemplating enriching her up and turning up the boost and see what happens. (And wont be hitting a dyno for months but will be making more power.) All in all, my mods don't all quite complement each other as they should so there will be some tweaking.

OP. to your original question why are Holsets making 16g numbers. It's most likely for reasons like me, where your tuner/dyno is quite far away and you cant make easy quick dyno trips after you make changes, and when you got there you found issues you didn't know you had before you arrived. Also finding out your restrictions with other parameters logged. I love my Holset... i just don't love this .55AR bep bolt on housing. This turbo will SCREAM in a T3 setup at 40psi on C16. And make 9s on my car if it were stripped down.

There is DEFINITLY potential with these Holsets, just not everyone takes full advantage of them. i will be trying to max this turbo out over the next year or so and i hope to be a spot or two behind Talondaves current record when i am finished modding.

Getting 400hp on a 16G on pump gas would be very hard.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Getting 400hp on a 16G on pump gas would be very hard.

well yeah on pump, point is it's 16g power on a 40R turbo the damn thing isnt even awake making 400hp

 

[red_devil]

Not bad numbers though. What was peak timing? I wonder if my 8 blade truly would get you more airflow at 24psi (your mod list is a whole lot more substantial than mine though)

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

392awhp @ 24psi on pump gas with full boost at 4k is hardly something to be unimpressed by. Especially when you consider how much is left to go on that setup.

Post a log, I would be curious to see how conservative ER made your timing curve. I bet they left a lot on the table for safetys sake.

 

[Calan]

... ill be switching to the .70AR T3 BEP and hoping for 600AWHP.

Why not just put some good gas in it and tune it with the .55 BEP? If you can't get 500whp out of the .55 housing, you probably aren't going to get 600 out of the T3.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

392awhp @ 24psi on pump gas with full boost at 4k is hardly something to be unimpressed by. Especially when you consider how much is left to go on that setup.

Post a log, I would be curious to see how conservative ER made your timing curve. I bet they left a lot on the table for safetys sake.

My base timing was getting thrown off by my crank pully being a 7 bolt on my 6 bolt motor. They said it wasn't letting my base timing synchronise with spark advance (so my timing that shows 2* was more like 12 Actual but the logs show 2*, also my BC272s could be cut wrong contributing to the off timing numbers, (but they might just be trying to sell me S2s) Honestly they kept my timing curve low. im peaking 2* timing. they didn't seem worried about it at all. it is way more steady now though of a curve then it was


Calan, i was going to do C16 but i didn't have the funds that day for the gas itself and draining the tank. I was planning on taking the BEP housing to the max but it was showing back pressure at only 24psi. (turbine beginning to slow) So we kept it there on pump. the curious thing is that i was making more power on my own tune at a richer AFR and more boost with less to the same amount of knock they were comfortable with. I think I'm gonna richen up to an 11.3 and go up to 26 psi and see how that feels; while keeping the current timing curve. they said that up to 3* of knock is nothing to worry about and that's what i should set my CEL to and back off when i see it. That's a little more knock then im comfortable with so im gonna set it to 2* and richen up in the areas i was getting 1.4* knock. 11.8-12 just seems way to lean of an AFR to me also, but apparently that's what they tune all their evos on with pump gas, must be voodoo magic.WTF But it works.

with the current restirctions and base timing issues, i told them to tune it safely for pump gas at something that will be reliable while I'm in Canada for school, another reason we stayed at 24psi.

I have a little list of things to get me to 600AWHP and a T3 is just two of the things to get me there, (Not possible on pump gas of course.) But FIC 2150s on C16 and S2 cams with Kiggley beehives, a new 6 bolt crank pully, Sheet metal intake manifold (magnus or JMF) fuel pump rewire and 2700 lb car they believe i should be hitting 9.8s with that after the timing issues get worked out. since i dont plan on completely gutting the car, ill be happy with 9.9 capable with achieving low 10s with a full interior. Now obviously that's quite a costly list so i don't plan on accomplishing that very soon. maybe the T3 setup at the least. After all, the end goal for me is a 9.9 then i'm done modding.....For now. Definitely left a lot on the table...

 

[Boostdriven]

Considering that you still have a stock intake manifold and only ran 24psi 392 HP is a good number, good job man. Few years ago my car made 426 awhp on pumo gas st 26 psi and that was with hx40 6 blade and FRH intake manifold. Looking at your dyno paper your HP starts to fall off at about 6300 rpms, part of the reason for that is your stock intake manifold which you said you plan on upgrading, another thing could be that your cams are not degreed 100% correctly. I've seen that before on another dsm, the cams were so far out of degree that the car that was suppose to make 400+ fwhp barely broke 300, but after degreeing the cams there was a huge difference. Going front not wanting to break traction in 2nd gear to spinning them off in 3rd rolling in to it.

Now to fix your timing problem all u need to do is pull a spark plug out on cylinder #1 and stick something in there like a piece of pipe and turn the motor until you are at true TDC and look at where the timing mark is on your crank pulley in relationship to the timing marks on the cover. This way you will know where 0 degrees is, from there I'm sure you can figure out where 5 degree is BTDC. You can see the original marks on your cover and how far they are spaced out from 10-5 and from 5-0 make a new mark on your cover and set your timing to that. That's should set your base timing. I don't think you need to switch to a 1g crank pulley unless that's something that you just want to have. I might have one I just have to look through my stuff, which if I do have I will send to you for the price of shipping.

For your intake manifold you can either spend $600+ dollars and buy a name brand one or we can work out a deal and I'll build you one. My friend Tristen (aka dsmcurse) used to have a dejontool intake manifold which I didn't like how the runners were cut off square at the plenum so I cut off the old square looking plenum and modified his runners to have a 1/4 round taper going in from the plenum in to the runner, basically making my home made velocity stacks and then replaced the plenum with a 4" pipe. I cut the pipe in such way that air going in to the runners would not have sharp turns but was all smooth rounded corners. His car made 505 awhp with the old dejontool manifold and after the manifold mod you could tell the difference in power driving the car ln the street. I'm sure he has some pictures that he will be more then happy to share with you. When making a customer manifold there are many options that you can do so if you're interested let me know and we can work something out.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Hitting the dyno today in a few hours. Will post results.

 

[Boostdriven]

May the holset power be with you

 

[bastarddsm]

BC272's are a weak cam. I think you'd be better with the old school HKS272's, and yeah english was porbably trying to push the S2's but for a reason. They do work.

I also bet your vrsf ic is holding you back on pump. What were your post IC ait's? If they are not ambient, your not gonna get very far.

 

[Boostdriven]

Not to disrespect hks cams but if he would be willing to spend $350+ dollars for each cam then he might as well buy kelford 272s, those are better cams. If you look up the specs on those cams the have more duration and lift then most 280s out there. 11mm valve lift and 226 degrees of duration at .040 valve lift on both cams.