why such low numbers from holset? (quest for 450whp turbo)

[boostadd1ct]

doing some search on holset bep .55 hx40 and hx35
and found this.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...esults-only-complete-installed-systems-3.html

im curious as to why peoples dyno numbers are bellow 400whp with such a big turbo?

I mean I understand that the bolt on .55 housing is limiting its potential but how can it only produce the same amount of power as a e316g at about the same psi?

 

[foxracing4500]

I got a free HX35 (8 blade)
but then I found out nobody likes it =(

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[Calan]

Something is wrong. Does he have ecmlink? if so I would like to see a log.

Very wrong. I'd like to see that log too.

So 400whp does happen on a bep housing with an hx40?

Easily.

That flow number might be a little optimistic, especially only making 475, you should be closer to 550 with that flow number on a conservative tune, and 590+ set on kill. I'd bet your fuel pressure falls off up top requiring larger idc's thus inflating your airflow number.

Actually, it should be pretty close. Based on countless logs I've analyzed, I average right at 7-8hp per lb/min of airflow at the wheels with this conservative tune, which is right on par with the estimates in this log. And, the BEP housing is a bit "modified".

Fuel pressure and IDCs are good, and AFR is dead on. Here is another screenshot that shows AFR and IDCs (I swapped over to the crankcase pressure sender on this log, so I wasn't logging FP... but I have many times and it's steady). The top dashed line is a zero error reference, with the wideband error riding on top of it:

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FWIW - This was an Oklahoma early summer tune; ambient temps were around 95 at the time IIRC. I was running AFRs in the 11s and only about 9* of timing up top on this tune.

Also, notice that peak HP was actually at 56 lbs/min, before I blipped the throttle. I had a very low knock spike at that point (most likely some random noise), which is why power dropped off and I got off the gas for a second. I have another log somewhere on that same tune that was upwards of 490whp I believe, but can't find it at the moment.

 

[boostadd1ct]

FWIW the setup that was on my car before I switched to a BW turbo was a Holset hx40 and it made 460 one year on 32ish psi on a dyno dynamics, and 556 the day it was sold to me on MAP's dynojet at 37psi. This was on a stock block with HKS 272's and other boltons. They can make 450awhp!

what fuel? that makes a huge difference.

That made my night!

7 blade HX-35, 37 psi by 4700, 53-54 lb/min airflow. 1.2 sec 70-90mph times! Don't care what the dyno says when I can hang with sportbikes from a roll and even beat a few

what are you guys running to run over 30psi? i thought 30ish is the limit for e85?

 

[Calan]

what are you guys running to run over 30psi? i thought 30ish is the limit for e85?

Who told you that?

 

[bastarddsm]

11's AFR is where you should be. When my HY was about maxed out, going from 12.5 to 11.5 netted my 40whp! Also 9* up top is way beyond conservative. adding 10* to that would still be conservative to me. I had about 24* up top, but I'm running non projected plugs and 8.3:1 so that adds a few points to the requirments.

 

[Calan]

11's AFR is where you should be. When my HY was about maxed out, going from 12.5 to 11.5 netted my 40whp!

I don't see much difference in power output between 11.5:1 and 12.5:1 with E85. My best power comes at about 12.0:1, but that depends a lot on timing and other factors of course. I prefer to run slightly richer to help combat pre-ignition. E85 is extremely tolerant of detonation over a wide range of AFR; pre-ignition, not so much.

Also 9* up top is way beyond conservative. adding 10* to that would still be conservative to me.

Not on a 2.3l stroker, at least for the majority of people running them. I can get away with about another 5-7 degrees on E85 above 30psi in cooler weather; after that I'm beyond MBT and EGTs start to rise beyond my comfort level.

EDIT:

BTW - EGT's are just weird on this motor for some reason. I can get rising EGTs by either retarding or advancing the timing at different loads when I don't expect it; and I haven't quite figured out the rhyme or reason as to why it happens the way it does. My current theory is "Because DSM".

EDIT #2:

I just checked the log again, and I lied. Timing in that log was at 11* at peak power. In cooler weather, I'm usually somewhere around 14* at redline.

I've got to get this thing to a dyno. I haven't weighed it in a while, and I bet I'm overly conservative in the Link HP parameters. (It's a pig with the sub box/amp, spare tire, my fat ass, etc).

But then again... it's a fun daily driver. Really no need to push the envelope and prove anything.


*****

Enough of all that. We need to get this thread back on topic.

 

[boostadd1ct]

Who told you that?

I read it somewhere on this forums. I didn't plan on running over 30 so I didn't really pay attention to it. Something like you'll need race gas to run 40psi.


But seeing peoples number I'm really considering it for an hx35 setup. You think a stock rebuilt engine with l19 and mls with 272 is capable of 40psi?
If it is it be cool to have 2 tunes. 1 for 28psi and one at 37ish psi.

Or did you guys do something else?

Fuel ofcourse is e85. Will water injection help at that pressure?

I figured egt gauge is a must at that pressure?

 

[My1GLaser]

I run 60% E-85, 37 psi and the same tune all the time. 12:1 AFR, 22* timing.

 

[VETDRMS]

holset hx40 at mitsu bep seemed like cheap option if it would only make 450whp.

at a t3 setup theres a guy at classified selling one for 1k. still pretty good but im short acouple hundred.

and e85 is what im running now. so i was looking for something that could make my goal at around 25psi ideally but Im willing to run 29psi if I have to.

I made almost 450awhp through an auto at 25psi with a BW S256ETT and BEP .55 housing. The S200 series BWs are underated IMHO. I will probably be trying a billet S259 + .70 T3 housing here soon.

 

[boostadd1ct]

I run 60% E-85, 37 psi and the same tune all the time. 12:1 AFR, 22* timing.

Nothing special done to your hg or internals?

That seems a bit on the lean side for 60%.

Did you up the timing in steps? Curious if the gain is still worth it after 17* especially at 37psi

 

[Calan]

You think a stock rebuilt engine with l19 and mls with 272 is capable of 40psi?
If it is it be cool to have 2 tunes. 1 for 28psi and one at 37ish psi.

Why are you worried about hitting a specific boost level? Boost is a by-product of the power level you are trying to reach; not something you target.

Excessive cylinder pressure, heat, and RPMs kill motors; not boost.

 

[J_HEATH]

to bad your all the way down in BFE alabama otherwise id love to drive my POS holeset hx40 down there and race you.





thank you. bout time a healthy post popped up in this thread. half these guys that talk S on the holeset dont make big power they just make big BS. i bet i could unplug 2 spark plug wires and still dyno higher than half the haters.
the dyno paper i posted earlier in this thread you can see where i just homemade copied my max values that i logged on dsm link onto the dyno paper. i passed 60pounds a minute air flow at 29psi and made over 500awhp on pump gas with a budget turbo. but like you said "thats still not enough for the haters"

holeset is not a pos, its a damn workhorse on a budget

BFE Alabama, z

Says the guy from Idaho. WTF is in Idaho? Thanks for the potatoes I guess? I live on the gulf of Mexico and I can assure you where I live is more of a modern, and idustrial city than some hodunk, country, backwoods farm town where you reside in potato land. Also Boise State is a joke of a football team, yeah I went there .

I ran a old school lil ole buschur 20G on my DSM and ran consistant high 6's to 7.0's in the 1/8th mile. I've busted the ass of several BS broke-ass DSM'ers locally that use the same cheap ass designed for a diesel truck turbo you seem to hype up. There are few that have made actual dyno numbers (not virtural BS dyno) and made some decent numbers, then there are few that have made some decent runs on these turbos. I don't give two shits about what your DSM feels like from 70-90mph, what the hell is this "Midnight Club" where we race to 160mph? Real Dyno sheets and time slips impress me.

Also, look at any of the big name racers in Imports. Name one that runs a Holset turbo. None! Its either Garrett (FP), Borg Warner (Bullseye), or Percision for the majority. Also, talking about DSM's and Evo's in General running a 4G63, hmm... lets see, who has won the DSM/Evo shootout the last, hell every year and what turbo were they running? Not a Holset!

I look at it like this,

If you can't afford the good stuff that is proven and want to take the cheap route then guess what, I guess you don't want to be the top dog or even competative with the best. So break off into your own group and see who can be the fastest or make the most power with your cheapass (as in person not the turbo) setups and brag about that on the internet to one another. But don't expect to get props from others who feel like its a joke. Its like a gold medalist at the special olympics bragging to someone that just qualified for the summer olympics. Yeah you got a gold medal but you're still slower than me who just qualified, plus you're some sort of handicap so you will never be able to really compete with me.

The OP asked about his turbo and why is was making shitty power, I replied with my opinion. Others who run and love the cheap poor mans turbo get offended. Of course I expected this reaction. I will never win an argument over the internet about this nor will either of your opinions change mine about it. I simply believe that with a purposly built turbo for a 4G63 will perform better than a pieced together turbo with this and that part just to try and slightly compete. When in the end you could of probably bought a nicer turbo atleast used and just bolt it on and go.

patiently waiting for some angered response

 

[Agent Ezzard]

I just dyno'd my HX35 with a BEP mitsu-flanged housing. On HP Logic's Mustang Dyno I netted 305awhp at 22psi. Mods in profile. After reviewing my logs and looking at the powerband I know this setup has more in it with fine tuning and more boost.

 

[Calan]

BFE Alabama, z

Says the guy from Idaho. WTF is in Idaho? Thanks for the potatoes I guess? I live on the gulf of Mexico and I can assure you where I live is more of a modern, and idustrial city than some hodunk, country, backwoods farm town where you reside in potato land. Also Boise State is a joke of a football team, yeah I went there .

blah

blah

Classy.

 

[My1GLaser]

Some people's kids! I guess you have a right to react like that in a way, since your statement was called unbridled ignorance. However, why all the hating? Aren't we all DSMers, and on the same side? Sometimes the rush of acceleration and the fun that racing brings is enough to have a good time doing what we love to do! Not everyone is out to be the best of the best. Not everyone has something to prove...

Boostaddict: Built motor 9:1 CR FelproPermatorque HG, L19s. I haven't run 17* since...well I can't remember when I ran lower than 19*. I am curious how it would compare to pull a little timing and see how it runs.

I had to recalibrate my airflow cause my BoostEst was about 2-3 psi high recently and I ended up around 12.3:1 AFR and my 70-90 went up to 1.36 sec. I was consistently ~1.15 for a couple weeks before that with no other changes. I am going to shoot for 11.8-12.0 AFR and see if my 70-90 time comes back down. At least I think I found my threshold! A little more tweaking and I'm hitting the track again!

 

[boostadd1ct]

Why are you worried about hitting a specific boost level? Boost is a by-product of the power level you are trying to reach; not something you target.

Excessive cylinder pressure, heat, and RPMs kill motors; not boost.

Well aware. But higher psi = higher cyl pressure, and higher heat. Not worried about rpm in my case.

So for a DD and piece of mind I'd like to ideally run at around 25ish psi. Just my comfort level.

But I've never owned a car that ran 30+ psi so I'm curious about how that feels

BFE Alabama,

Hahaha your funny.

1. I don't have a holset as I said before. I'm researching.
2. Why are you talking about top dog? Where talking 450whp is that top dog where your at? Cause this is not a thread about that. This is about 450whp. Build by a college student on a budget.

 

[Calan]

Well aware. But higher psi = higher cyl pressure, and higher heat.

So for a DD and piece of mind I'd like to ideally run at around 25ish psi. Just my comfort level.

My point was that your 25psi is an arbitrary number. Even on the same engine, 25psi under one set of conditions won't create the same cylinder pressure as it will under a different set of conditions...not to mention the difference between different turbos running at the same boost level. And, comparing that same 25psi to a different car running 25psi can be a world of difference.

You need to come up with a power level that you are comfortable with, and then build to support that power level, taking into account the required airflow along with the amount and type of fuel needed to support it. The boost required to make that power will be a function of the turbo's efficiency, tune, and about 2037201309213 other factors.

You can run 25psi on a dangerous tune and make 250hp, or 21 psi on a safe tune and make 350hp. It's all about the volume of airflow and how well you utilize to make power; not the pressure.

The only thing a target boost value is good for is bragging rights in the high school parking lot.

 

[deflator]

To me, budget means MHI turbos. But they won't get you to 450whp.

So I guess the order of cheap power would be:
Used holset
Rebuilt holset
Used FP3065/Green

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

I'm gonna try to get my car dyno tuned this week just for this thread.

I made 310whp on a mustang dyno on 20psi with zero tuning or calibration adjustments, knock pulling timing to the neighborhood of 3-4 degrees, and fuel pressure way off the mark. This was supposed to be the baseline pull before a real tune but the tuner was impatient and said he didn't want to deal with it and that he forgot to give me a list of things that needed to be done before I got there.

I've since fixed the fuel pressure and did some tuning myself and am running 25psi now. This is all through a MAF on 91 octane.

My mods are as follows:
97 GST, Stock engine, Stock MAF, Link V3, FIC 1000cc's, Holset HX40 w/BEP bolt on housing, FP Race mani, Tial MVS 38mm w/Punishment O2 housing, FP intake, HKS SSQV4 BOV, ETS Street FMIC, Megan DP, 3in catback, Fuel Lab FPR, Walbro 255hp rewired, Dynatek ARC2, ACT Streetlite Flywheel, ACT 2600PP, SB Kevlar Disc, Shep Stg 2 Trans w/ Quiafe, Mishimoto X-line Rad

Hopefully I can get an appointment soon. If not there is a dyno day this Saturday that I may go to and see what I put down on my own tune.

 

[dsmcurse]

J_heath, I read your profile, same bottom end as me and about ten thousand others on here, nothin wrong with that. Your bolt ons don't impress me much at all. I would one hundred percent race you with my pos holeset.

As far as a virtual dyno or whatever the hell you called it, I don't know what the hell your talkin about? On page 2 of this thread I posted my dyno paper from a BRAND NEW FOUR WHEEL DRIVE MUSTANG DYNO. I cleared 500HP over a year ago on pump gas.

Next time I go to dyno which won't be to far out I should be closin in on the 600 mark. But dyno papers and timeslips don't mean much to me. Its what matters side by side on the freeway and that's about it. (Yep idaho has freeways) was unsure about alabama tho. And who gives a $hit about our crappy football team? I like how you had to throw that in there

And I can think of plenty turbos that would rape a 20g for the same money spent. Like I said, to bad your in alabama and I'm in idaho. I don't need to go from a dig, I'm a freeway fighter all the way I would love to go side by side with you at 60mph but maybe my "hobo" turbo would be to slow to boost?

How about you post a dyno paper that shows your WHEEL horsepower? I can garentee I would clear 550 right now.

What's the next briliant remark? 500plus horespower isn't fast because its done on a holeset? FIVE HUNDRED HORSE IS STILL FIVE HUNDRED HORSE NO MATTER WHAT BRAND TURBO IT IS.
And as far as "all the big dogs" go, OF COURSE THEY HAVE $2000 PLUS TURBOS. They are super competative racecars. 95 percent of us are street cars. The purpose of a holeset in the first place is for the performace per dollar ratio! Its a damn good mod for the money, and I don't see the point in talkin S on people who choose to spent there money wisely

 

[JusMX141]

Also, talking about DSM's and Evo's in General running a 4G63, hmm... lets see, who has won the DSM/Evo shootout the last, hell every year and what turbo were they running? Not a Holset!

Funny you say that. Not one, but two. On the same car.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/444669-compound-charged-talon-wins-dse.html


Obvious troll is obvious. As much as I enjoy reading your nonsensical flame-ridden bullshit, it's clearly not valid here....so unless your next post says "I ran a HX40 for a while and it didn't impress me much, so I went with xxxx turbo and have been happy ever since and here's why..." then it would be wise to keep to yourself and quit dragging the thread off-topic before you get it shut down.

 

[bastarddsm]

J

How about you post a dyno paper that shows your WHEEL horsepower? I can garentee I would clear 550 right now.
And as far as "all the big dogs" go, OF COURSE THEY HAVE $2000 PLUS TURBOS.

He might have been pointing at me as my sheet isn't from a mainstream dyno. Still tho, how much power does it take to go 130 in the 1/4 weighing 3400lbs. My dyno said 550 when I did that. Trap speeds do not lie. I don't see many other with green's and 3052's going that fast, unless they are in a gutted car. Also if I recall correctly, a holset powered dsm won DSE at the shootout....

 

[JusMX141]

Also if I recall correctly, a holset powered dsm won DSE at the shootout....

Absolutely.

Talondave also won B1 in 2009 with a HX35, beating out a bunch of fast FP and PTE-powered DSM's and Evo's almost a year before J_HEATH was even a member here.

TalonDave @ DSM Shootout 09 - YouTube

 

[J_HEATH]

J_heath, I read your profile, same bottom end as me and about ten thousand others on here, nothin wrong with that. Your bolt ons don't impress me much at all. I would one hundred percent race you with my pos holeset.

As far as a virtual dyno or whatever the hell you called it, I don't know what the hell your talkin about? On page 2 of this thread I posted my dyno paper from a BRAND NEW FOUR WHEEL DRIVE MUSTANG DYNO. I cleared 500HP over a year ago on pump gas.

Next time I go to dyno which won't be to far out I should be closin in on the 600 mark. But dyno papers and timeslips don't mean much to me. Its what matters side by side on the freeway and that's about it. (Yep idaho has freeways) was unsure about alabama tho. And who gives a $hit about our crappy football team? I like how you had to throw that in there

And I can think of plenty turbos that would rape a 20g for the same money spent. Like I said, to bad your in alabama and I'm in idaho. I don't need to go from a dig, I'm a freeway fighter all the way I would love to go side by side with you at 60mph but maybe my "hobo" turbo would be to slow to boost?

How about you post a dyno paper that shows your WHEEL horsepower? I can garentee I would clear 550 right now.

What's the next briliant remark? 500plus horespower isn't fast because its done on a holeset? FIVE HUNDRED HORSE IS STILL FIVE HUNDRED HORSE NO MATTER WHAT BRAND TURBO IT IS.
And as far as "all the big dogs" go, OF COURSE THEY HAVE $2000 PLUS TURBOS. They are super competative racecars. 95 percent of us are street cars. The purpose of a holeset in the first place is for the performace per dollar ratio! Its a damn good mod for the money, and I don't see the point in talkin S on people who choose to spent there money wisely

Yeah I need to update my profile. I'm selling the 20G setup and in the process of getting a FP3794, I'm also running an AMS fully built with 1mm oversized supertech valves and dual springs, Magnus V3 cast manifold, 70mm TB, blah, blah, blah. I have a build thread going on here and will update it once I get it all together and get it on a dyno and to the track. I'm not some young kid, I'm 33 years old and I work at the only steel mill in America that makes Quinch and tempered steel. We make Niche steel like Hardox, and Weldox. Ever noticed a dump truck and on the bed it says Ox body? Thats our steel Hardox. We make steel for John Deer, Trinity, American Railcar, Komatsu, Taylor, so on.

I've dumped around 20K into my DSM because I want to be competative at racing events. To each their own. And to the guy talking about the DSM shootout, yeah I was there and I was also referring to the Quick 16 class, the big boys.

 

[talondave]

I dynoed at 220hp, so its time for me to switch to something "designed" for my car!