why such low numbers from holset? (quest for 450whp turbo)

[boostadd1ct]

doing some search on holset bep .55 hx40 and hx35
and found this.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...esults-only-complete-installed-systems-3.html

im curious as to why peoples dyno numbers are bellow 400whp with such a big turbo?

I mean I understand that the bolt on .55 housing is limiting its potential but how can it only produce the same amount of power as a e316g at about the same psi?

 

[bastarddsm]

Bigger doesn't always mean better.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Considering that you still have a stock intake manifold and only ran 24psi 392 HP is a good number, good job man. Few years ago my car made 426 awhp on pumo gas st 26 psi and that was with hx40 6 blade and FRH intake manifold. Looking at your dyno paper your HP starts to fall off at about 6300 rpms, part of the reason for that is your stock intake manifold which you said you plan on upgrading, another thing could be that your cams are not degreed 100% correctly. I've seen that before on another dsm, the cams were so far out of degree that the car that was suppose to make 400+ fwhp barely broke 300, but after degreeing the cams there was a huge difference. Going front not wanting to break traction in 2nd gear to spinning them off in 3rd rolling in to it.

Now to fix your timing problem all u need to do is pull a spark plug out on cylinder #1 and stick something in there like a piece of pipe and turn the motor until you are at true TDC and look at where the timing mark is on your crank pulley in relationship to the timing marks on the cover. This way you will know where 0 degrees is, from there I'm sure you can figure out where 5 degree is BTDC. You can see the original marks on your cover and how far they are spaced out from 10-5 and from 5-0 make a new mark on your cover and set your timing to that. That's should set your base timing. I don't think you need to switch to a 1g crank pulley unless that's something that you just want to have. I might have one I just have to look through my stuff, which if I do have I will send to you for the price of shipping.

For your intake manifold you can either spend $600+ dollars and buy a name brand one or we can work out a deal and I'll build you one. My friend Tristen (aka dsmcurse) used to have a dejontool intake manifold which I didn't like how the runners were cut off square at the plenum so I cut off the old square looking plenum and modified his runners to have a 1/4 round taper going in from the plenum in to the runner, basically making my home made velocity stacks and then replaced the plenum with a 4" pipe. I cut the pipe in such way that air going in to the runners would not have sharp turns but was all smooth rounded corners. His car made 505 awhp with the old dejontool manifold and after the manifold mod you could tell the difference in power driving the car ln the street. I'm sure he has some pictures that he will be more then happy to share with you. When making a customer manifold there are many options that you can do so if you're interested let me know and we can work something out.

I've got stock cam gears. So i don't think degreeing is an issue that's why we think it could be improperly cut. The dowls faced straight up and the timing marks lined up in the center. The crank pulley timing marks do not. Or at least that's what I think I understood. I'm not the one that looked at it or did the base timing at English.. obviously . as for your intake manifold offer, I do my own welding, I have a miller diversion 180 and I would love to get your design so that i could make templates and try my hand at it, I already plan to make a custom ram horn style T3 setup. Sucky thing is I priced out materials and im around $430 for all the materials, flanges, merge collector Vband etc.. it should be fun though, but now I know why quality manifolds sell for around $900.
I'll PM you about the Pulley.

Hitting the dyno today in a few hours. Will post results.

Good Luck! You should make good power being that your FWD

 

[Calan]

I've got stock cam gears. So i don't think degreeing is an issue

The gears have nothing to do with whether or not your cams are degreed properly; ACGs just allow you to correct the problem, where as stock gears don't.

Shaving the head/block, different headgasket thickness, cam profile, etc. can all cause the mechanical alignment between valve and crank events to be out of sync. Degreeing the cams corrects this misalignment, and allows for adjustments from a known reference point in order to shift or change the power curve.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

BC272's are a weak cam. I think you'd be better with the old school HKS272's, and yeah english was porbably trying to push the S2's but for a reason. They do work.

I also bet your vrsf ic is holding you back on pump. What were your post IC ait's? If they are not ambient, your not gonna get very far.

They were maybe 7* above ambient. 50* outside 57 IAT in The shop on the dyno. I agree about the s2's being awesome. Never said it was a bad thing they wanted to push those.

The gears have nothing to do with whether or not your cams are degreed properly; ACGs just allow you to correct the problem, where as stock gears don't.

Shaving the head/block, different headgasket thickness, cam profile, etc. can all cause the mechanical alignment between valve and crank events to be out of sync. Degreeing the cams corrects this misalignment, and allows for adjustments from a known reference point in order to shift or change the power curve.

AEM here I come.

As for cams, I like FPx2 or S2's probably will go with S2s on Kiggley beehives. Wait, whose thread is this again?

 

[ceedawg]

Bigger doesn't always mean better.

I agree with you there!

However Keltalon the guy who did the cam test has made 573.4 whp, 488.4 lb-ft/torque with BC272's on a 2liter motor with a cyclone intake manifold. He gave a complete review. He does say the HKS 272's will make more power but the street manners of the BC272's he said are very good. Again he made 500+awhp just with BC272's.

Sounds like urbansmoker has other issues with the car and not the cams.

With a smaller turbo T4/T3 garret 50 trim back in 2k3 at 21psi my car made 413awhp.

 

[Boostdriven]

Bigger doesn't always mean better.

Ask your old lady and she will tell you you set yourself up for that one. I agree with you to an extent but if bigger cams were not better then they would never make 288s. It's all about the HP you want and how high you plan on reving the motor. In his case bigger cams might not be better but if he is talking about going with a after market intake manifold and a T3 exhaust housing the he probably is planning on running higher rpms in which case bigger cams will help.

Sounds like urbansmoker has other issues with the car and not the cams.

I didn't say he had bad cams or there was a problem with them I just said that there is a chance that they need to be degreed. Every after market cam I've installed required some adjustment, some more some less. Given the fact that he has stock cam gears its obvious that no adjustment has been made.

 

[bastarddsm]

Ask your old lady and she will tell you you set yourself up for that one. I agree with you to an extent but if bigger cams were not better then they would never make 288s. It's all about the HP you want and how high you plan on reving the motor. In his case bigger cams might not be better but if he is talking about going with a after market intake manifold and a T3 exhaust housing the he probably is planning on running higher rpms in which case bigger cams will help.

. Yeah, I merely suggested the HKS's because they have been proven to work, yeah there is better stuff out there now, but they are still a good fall back plan.

In miy experience they are a pretty good comprimise. Meaning they will work good with a 16g all they way up to a full T3 setup moving 65+lbs/min.

I'd argue that the mildness of the HKS profile might be a better thing with a somewhat "choked up" hotside, because they might minimize reversion. I don't have any solid proof to go on.

I do know that in cases where the turbo is 100% maxed out, cant do anymore, the cam makes a little difference. Like 15hp on 1300 hp difference, best to worst. but that what a 2v inline six on methanol with a hx82 over an hx50, so who knows how applicable it is.

 

[ceedawg]

Ask your old lady and she will tell you you set yourself up for that one. I agree with you to an extent but if bigger cams were not better then they would never make 288s. It's all about the HP you want and how high you plan on reving the motor. In his case bigger cams might not be better but if he is talking about going with a after market intake manifold and a T3 exhaust housing the he probably is planning on running higher rpms in which case bigger cams will help.



I didn't say he had bad cams or there was a problem with them I just said that there Every after market cam I've installed required some adjustment, some more some less. Given the fact that he has stock cam gears its obvious that no adjustment has been made.

Unfortunately the site went down and I was not able to respond about the cams not being degreed.

My statement was more pointed to BastardDSM for saying he has weak cams not you but I am in agreement you on the cams needing to be degreed. I know keltalon had to degree the BC272's on his car I believe he states.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Alright so I'm back from the dyno.....

My freshly built brand new lookin HX40 with no more 1k miles on it crapped the bed. At only 22 psi. Feels like the shaft snapped. The nut the holding the compressor wheel on was about to fall off, don't know if that was the cause or it if it was aftermath of the shaft snapping.

Before that happened it made 317whp at 22psi with only 7 degrees of timing. 91 octane.

AFR's were inline and we were ready to add some boost. So I crank the boost controller a tad and we do another pull. The turbo crapped out before it even reached the higher boost.

My oil feed is a -4 SS line from the filter housing with a .075 restrictor.

I don't know if I will be staying Holset.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

When you installed it did you check the oil pressure at the turbo? You could have had too much restriction, what does your drain look like? Spec is a minimum -12AN. How much boost were you running before getting it tuned? Where did you get the turbo from?

 

[boost97gst]

that really sucks...... daaaaaaamn. Im a holset dummy, arent they JB turbos? I didnt know they required restricors. I thought no JB needed a restricor unless pressureys are extremely high.
But, like i said, i know nothing of the hx40, is it BB?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I gotta say I was looking at logs and they didn't touch boost it stayed set at 22psi but the dyno showed a 24 as a spike. interesting... So how do things look with that said.

 

[bastarddsm]

Alright so I'm back from the dyno.....

My freshly built brand new lookin HX40 with no more 1k miles on it crapped the bed. At only 22 psi. Feels like the shaft snapped. The nut the holding the compressor wheel on was about to fall off, don't know if that was the cause or it if it was aftermath of the shaft snapping.

Before that happened it made 317whp at 22psi with only 7 degrees of timing. 91 octane.

AFR's were inline and we were ready to add some boost. So I crank the boost controller a tad and we do another pull. The turbo crapped out before it even reached the higher boost.

My oil feed is a -4 SS line from the filter housing with a .075 restrictor.

I don't know if I will be staying Holset.

Yeah, I would have never restricted it. The talk that you need to restrict the feed needs to stop. It's wrong, it came from a time where everyone ran stock type drains and they could smoke. It was a bandaide fix. Too much oil will not hurt these turbo's. Worst case it might smoke, but it will not destroy the turbo. When you don't have enough oil, the bearings wear fast, and then the compressor wheel grabs the housing and twists the shaft off.

If it surges real bad when you snap the throttle shut it can sometimes spin the nut off.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Mine smokes a bit since leaving english, I'm thinking it's due to the lean tune. I'm running -4 feed no reatriction -12AN drain ported oil pan. it didn't smoke when it was at 11.1:1

 

[JusMX141]

My oil feed is a -4 SS line from the filter housing with a .075 restrictor.

Did you bother to check pressure at all, or did you just do this on a whim based on someone else's results? Every car is different; every engine makes different pressure, and nobody uses the same oil brand / type / weight.

You can't over-restrict a journal bearing turbo or it will fail. The only time you should use a restrictor is if you've checked pressure and it's way above 72psi...and even then you should only restrict enough to bring the pressure down to a safe level. This information is literally everywhere on this site.

Too much oil will not hurt these turbo's. Worst case it might smoke, but it will not destroy the turbo.

To be honest, it is possible for excessive oil to kill a turbo. The oil bypasses the turbine sealing ring, compromising it's ability to not only keep oil in the cartridge but keep exhaust in the turbine housing. Once the hot exhaust gas begins to enter the cartridge it will overheat the shaft and turbine-side journal, burning away any available lubrication....then you end up with this:

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[Boostdriven]

Thank you to those who support my theory of no restrictor, is almost the same as taking oil away from your rod bearings. The only thing that killed that turbo was lack of oil. Look at the stock feed line on a 5.9L or 8.3L cummins motor, its #6 straight off the block. Those turbos have high clearances and require more oil then garrett. You can't apply the same theory to holset as you can to garrett. Just like bastarddsm said, to much oil can't hurt the turbo, if its getting to much oil it will smoke and if anyone who knows their engine not to smoke prior to installing a new turbo/big feed line will know and will attempt to fix it.
For example, to much oil (to certain extant) will kill your turbo with in few thousand miles but not enough oil will kill your turbo with in miles. Knowing our dsms we don't put out enough oil pressure (with few exceptions) to kill holset turbos but I know a few including this one that have passed due to lack of oil.

To the OP; whoever told you to use a restrictor on a holset needs to be slapped. I don't care what anyone says, I go off of common sense and experience. My brother has an eBay hx35 mated with a holset hx40 6 blade wheel, he beats the sh!t out of it and it still works, he feeds it with my in-house made #6 line..075 is way to small of a hole especially with a #4 line.

Justin; not picking on you but that picture you posted looks like a turbo that's been underfed, the shaft is not blue yet because it hasn't seen enough miles. That exhaust wheel looks almost brand new, you can even see the original scratches inside the balancing grooves. That wheels hasn't seen enough miles to build up any carbon but the shaft clearly shows metal to metal contact and that's not from to much oil. I don't see any carbon build up on the piston ring, looks like new to me.

All I'm trying to do is help some of you guys out, I don't mean to start arguments but I am stating the facts. Big turbos require more oil. Big wheels once they start surging and thrashing around spinning at 100k rpms need some cushion and just because you keep it wet don't mean it has enough oil.

 

[bastarddsm]

To be honest, it is possible for excessive oil to kill a turbo. The oil bypasses the turbine sealing ring, compromising it's ability to not only keep oil in the cartridge but keep exhaust in the turbine housing. Once the hot exhaust gas begins to enter the cartridge it will overheat the shaft and turbine-side journal, burning away any available lubrication....then you end up with this:

Even if that is the case, it's not an instant thing. It's not like being underoiled, where two pulls and pop goes your wallet open. A turbo that's overoiled to where it could fail like that is going to give you some indication that it is in distress, long before it has a real problem.

But yeah, there really is no excuse for not putting a gauge on it, at the turbo, and making sure its 70-80lbs at load with hot oil.

 

[genegoesfast]

I went as far as to put an oil pressure gauge after the restrictor so I could see the exact oil pressure at the turbo. This was after I blew up a big h1c due to under oiling. I had to spend some serious time fine tuning my restrictor to achieve the desired pressures while hot. I think I ended up in the .098" area.

 

[crash89]

To kind of go with the excessive oil thing here. Maybe the oil drain is too small?! I remember reading in a couple threads here that if your oil drain is large enough it really doesnt matter if you're getting "too much'' oil to the turbo. Maybe its only seeing too much because the drain isnt large enough to sufficiently rid the center cartridge of oil being supplied!!

Ive got a 3/4 inch drain on my Hx35 and run no restrictor from the filter housing and have no issuse. My oil pressure gauge shows no more than 65 psi at WOT.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

I did not measure oil pressure at the turbo. My restrictor is at the turbo, which leaves no room for a T fitting. I could only measure at the line which showed roughly the same pressure as my AEM gauge, which I believe peaks at around 80 psi during a pull.

Low oil pressure is the first thing that came to mind (besides "oh no not my engine!") when the smoke blew everywhere on the dyno.

I ran the restrictor after I read a bunch of "horror stories" on people blowing oil out their exhausts with Holsets. Annnnd my oil drain.... its roughly the size of the stock 2g oil return except.... it has a -10AN fitting at the pan. This was also what pushed me to restrict.

I didn't want to admit it, but it was my fault for being so hasty in wanting the turbo installed. I know that if oil starvation is the cause of failure it is completely my fault for gambling on the oiling. If it seemed I was hating on Holset, I was just in a bad mood.

If the turbo is rebuildable I will run just the straight -4 feed, and see if I can find a stock drain to modify and weld to the pan. For now, its back to the good ole 18g powaa.

 

[bastarddsm]

Mine sees over 100 when cold, and about 90warm. I had a half kinked drain that was only about 9/16" id before it was kinked. It would some some when it was really cold out, but as soon at the motor got some heat in it, it was fine. nnI ran it like that for quite a while before I fixed the drain.

 

[JusMX141]

Look at the stock feed line on a 5.9L or 8.3L cummins motor, its #6 straight off the block. Those turbos have high clearances and require more oil then garrett. You can't apply the same theory to holset as you can to garrett.

Their operating oil pressure is also well within the specs of the turbo, and their drain tube is also 7/8" I.D.- two things you'll never see on a DSM. Our filter housing feed can easily provide over 100psi, and most of the drain kits sold for Holsets are a shade over 1/2" I.D.

If your pressure at the inlet is within spec and the drain is unrestricted and also happens to be the size of a fire hose, your feed can be as large as you want it to be. Upset the balance of either one of those and you're going to have problems.

Justin; not picking on you but that picture you posted looks like a turbo that's been underfed, the shaft is not blue yet because it hasn't seen enough miles. That exhaust wheel looks almost brand new, you can even see the original scratches inside the balancing grooves. That wheels hasn't seen enough miles to build up any carbon but the shaft clearly shows metal to metal contact and that's not from to much oil. I don't see any carbon build up on the piston ring, looks like new to me.

All of the burnt shit in the groove just before the turbine seal doesn't prove that exhaust heat was entering the cartridge? That's fine- how about this....

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Where's the heat coming from, and how is it entering the cartridge?

 

[Boostdriven]

If the turbo is rebuildable I will run just the straight -4 feed, and see if I can find a stock drain to modify and weld to the pan. For now, its back to the good ole 18g powaa.

It's possible that it is rebuildable but since you need a whole new exhaust wheel and shaft and compressor wheel on top of that you might as well find a good used one. I know BAE offers exhaust wheels of many size, some custom exhaust wheels as well like a 10 blade instead of a 12 for a decent price. You can probably get a new 6 or 7 blade 60/86 compressor wheel and 76/64 exhaust wheel for under $200 dollars. You will also need a rebuild kit which I think is under $75 dollars.

I run a stock oil return line on my holset with a modified flange bolting up to the turbo, the turbo is feed with a #6 line from the filter housing. I had it like that for over 6 years with no problems. I get 100psi of oil pressure when cold and about 85psi when warm. Your #10 return should be just fine if your using #4 feed but going out on the limb here I would say you could even get away with using #6 feed but #4 should work.

Justin why you keep arguing with me? Is there not enough facts in this thread alone to prove that lack of oil will smoke the turbo way before to much oil? That pic you posted of the housing is not holset but pos garrett which probably used a small housing which causes more pressure therefore more heat. That housing is bolted up directly to that center cartridge and I don't need to tell you that. When that housing sees 1400+ degrees well so is that center cartridge, that's not uncommon and I've seen that before. Oil cooled turbos are not cooled with water but oil alone so when u provide just enough oil to lube the bearing there is not much cooling involved. I don't need to tell you this sh!t you know it all yourself, I just don't understand why you keep pushing your point. Look at what the OP said in his last post. He admitted himself that he under oiled that turbo and I know for a fact it failed due to lack of oil. I'm not trying to put you down in and way or trying to look smart, I don't need to prove anything to anyone, facts are facts. You are a smart guy and working at the shop probably seen more turbos then I have, but how can u argue with me when I tell you that I ran a #6 line on my car for over six years with the same turbo using a stock oil return line with no problems. I get over 70 psi of oil pressure fully warmed up above 5k rpms. I took that turbo apart few times just to inspect it and never seen anything wrong with it. My turbo has well over 13k miles on it and still going strong. I had that car to a dyno 5 times with a lot of hard pulls. Like I said I don't mean to argue with you but when you tell some of these guys that don't know any better that a restrictor is a good thing and they come back saying their shaft snapped I don't know what else to say.

 

[bastarddsm]

I think it would be pretty hard to "cook" the oil out of the bearing, when you have a firehose of fresh clean oil coming in on it.

 

[Calan]

Justin why you keep arguing with me? Is there not enough facts in this thread alone to prove that lack of oil will smoke the turbo way before to much oil?

I don't think he ever said that too much oil would kill a turbo faster than a lack of it; only that it was possible to kill one both ways.

BTW - It's been mentioned many times before in other threads, but it's worth mentioning again here. Crankcase pressure plays a big part in how efficiently the turbo can drain oil, and therefore what kind of supply it needs. Crankcase pressure effectively changes the size of your drain.

I think it would be pretty hard to "cook" the oil out of the bearing, when you have a firehose of fresh clean oil coming in on it.

Once cooked oil begins turning to coke, it starts to build up and chokes things off. Nasty stuff.