why such low numbers from holset? (quest for 450whp turbo)

[boostadd1ct]

doing some search on holset bep .55 hx40 and hx35
and found this.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...esults-only-complete-installed-systems-3.html

im curious as to why peoples dyno numbers are bellow 400whp with such a big turbo?

I mean I understand that the bolt on .55 housing is limiting its potential but how can it only produce the same amount of power as a e316g at about the same psi?

 

[Boostdriven]

It's been mentioned many times before in other threads, but it's worth mentioning again here. Crankcase pressure plays a big part in how efficiently the turbo can drain oil, and therefore what kind of supply it needs. Crankcase pressure effectively changes the size of your drain.

Very true and that's why most of us ditch the stock breathers and weld on few nice size fittings on our valve covers to help with crank case ventilation.

 

[JusMX141]

I think it would be pretty hard to "cook" the oil out of the bearing, when you have a firehose of fresh clean oil coming in on it.

Oil will burn when injected into a tight orifice at high pressure. More on this:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Very true and that's why more intelligent builders ditch the stock breathers and weld on few nice size fittings on our valve covers to help with crank case ventilation.

Fixed.

 

[bastarddsm]

BTW - It's been mentioned many times before in other threads, but it's worth mentioning again here. Crankcase pressure plays a big part in how efficiently the turbo can drain oil, and therefore what kind of supply it needs. Crankcase pressure effectively changes the size of your drain.

If you have more crankcase pressure than drive pressure, you have bigger problems. You do know that the turbine seals are not a positive seal right? It's just to keep oil from "splashing" out. Boost and drive pressure keeps the flow inward not outward.

Oil will burn when injected into a tight orifice at high pressure. More on this:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Fixed.

Your right, but thats not high pressure or tight orfice. Those conditions are thousands of psi, and 1/10000", not hundreds and 1/1000"

 

[Boostdriven]

Those bearing look black not because they had dirty oil flowing through them but because they got hot and if they had a nice steady flow of oil through them they would never turn that black. The previous pic you posted of a cartridge showed a restrictor in it. I'm assuming all these turbo pieces are from the same turbo and the obvious is a lack of oil. Take that stupid restrictor out, polish out the shaft, rebuild the turbo and she will run and run.

 

[Calan]

If you have more crankcase pressure than drive pressure, you have bigger problems. You do know that the turbine seals are not a positive seal right? It's just to keep oil from "splashing" out. Boost and drive pressure keeps the flow inward not outward.

I was referring to the effect of CC pressure on oil being able to leave the drain and make it back to the pan. That was generic statement, not meant to be taken as part of the current discussion of what's happening in the bearings.

I probably could have picked a more opportune time to post that.

 

[JusMX141]

Those bearing look black not because they had dirty oil flowing through them but because they got hot and if they had a nice steady flow of oil through them they would never turn that black.

It was a brand new turbo with under 500 miles on it. Fresh oil, fed unrestricted from the filter housing. Bearings don't discolor black whenever they're oil-deprived....they wear and score. In order for the bearings to turn black there has to be excessive heat present which causes the oil intended to lubricate the bearings to burn instead of doing it's job. This heat enters the cartridge from a failed turbine sealing ring- and the failed turbine sealing ring comes from too much pressure entering the cartridge, or the inability to drain.

The previous pic you posted of a cartridge showed a restrictor in it.

You seem to have trouble telling the difference between a restrictor and a 4AN to 1/4" NPT fitting....either that or you're somehow seeing an angle of the photo that is different than the rest of us; but this is identical to the fitting that is in that turbo:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Well I swapped the 18g back in. I was reminded first hand how big that pig is (HX40) when trying to get it out of there.

The shaft is indeed snapped, the turbine wheel was just chillin in there sideways with some blades broken. Guess I got lucky it didn't take out the o2 sensor. I'll get some pics up later.

I'm actually excited to run the 18g now after dealing with the lag of the HX40. When I had the 18g on before it was a rigged setup and could never build stable boost because of a crappy internal gate. I'm interested to see how it feels with the external gate, a nice intercooler with same size piping, and speed density.

I haven't worked on my car in a while, and now that I've been at it all day I might as well throw my cams in and make more power then I had the HX40 at before heh.

I'm off to get some oil and lines for the wastegate then take her for a spin.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Please try to contribute some advice and knowledge and not some dumb question there will be people all over the world reading this thread and I am willing to bet money that they will think twice before they put the restrictor on their turbo with an exception of those few who are faithful believers and think that whatever is written in the book is a solid fact and should be applied to all situations.

And tron I'm not angry, if I let every little stupid thing bother me I would have way more grey hairs on my head then I already have

Or instead of doing it on the faith of your suggestion, they get a pressure sending unit installed post-filter on the feed line with a minimum -10 return and find out for themselves whether they need a restrictor.

Some with no squirters, balance shafts and tight bearing clearances will have excessive pressure. Operating temperature and oil viscosity will affect this as well.

The question was far from dumb it was rhetorical. I myself know more than a bit about turbo-machinery, and the man you are making unwarranted attacks on.. Justin, works with their innards for a profession. On top of that you basically insinuated that he was lying. I'm glad you have a few examples of anecdotal experience, so do I.

Justin has several hundred. The Cummins Turbo Tech (Holset) Engineer I spoke witha few months back agreed entirely with my approach.


What feed pressures do these turbos see on their OE applications? What do the field manuals, of which I happen to have for my HX52, say about the matter?

Check it out towards the bottom of page 4 for yourself:
http://www.myholsetturbo.com/manuals/HX50_52_55.pdf

There is a range specified by the manufacturer, and every motor is going to be different. We are putting them on an application that was not designed with them in mind and we have to tailor our system to the needs of the turbo.

I've done this for Garrett and Borg Warners as well, just saying "restrictors are dumb and unnecessary" as a generalized statement is asinine. Stupid even.

 

[Boostdriven]

Thanks for that info, we all can learn something from one another.

So I went back and read some of my first posts on this thread and honestly I didn't find anything offensive and bashing with an exception of some sarcasm which we all are guilty of it seems though every time I say something there is somebody out there that wants to argue with what I say after I give facts from my personal experience. I don't start arguments I make statements and others argue with what I say, so when I get some fire my way I throw some back. If someone can't handle it then they better not say anything at all. You've done no different, look at some of your previous posts in this thread. If I can't share my experience here then what the F is this site for???

 

[Archer Fabrications]

You said you don't have experience with ball bearing turbos. So you should not argue the facts of those that have had experience with them.

 

[Boostdriven]

You said you don't have experience with ball bearing turbos. So you should not argue the facts of those that have had experience with them.

I said I didn't have much not none but that irrelevant I'm just a toolbag

 

[JusMX141]

I said I didn't have much not none but that irrelevant I'm just a toolbag

Finally something all of us can agree on.


I keep seeing posts like this from you:

If I can't share my experience here then what the F is this site for???

....but you're not really providing us with a wealth of factual information, you're just here causing turmoil. Obviously I'm not the only one seeing this given the pile of post reports I've received on posts you've made today or any other day. For every 10 posts you make, 9 of them are troll-ridden and one contains helpful info. Your trolling extends beyond direct confrontation with members to the point where you even bumped a thread earlier with the sole intention of bashing a supporting vendor who you've never even dealt with on a ball bearing turbo you've never used, and that bullshit will not be tolerated.

Right now I'm going to review some of the posts you made today; if I come across anything that is clearly defined as trolling- meaning you post information or make a statement which has the sole purpose of drawing another member into a direct confrontation, I'm going to give an infraction....after three infractions you get put into contemptuous for two weeks. After that if you still can't figure out how to compose yourself when responding to threads, the next step will be a temporary account suspension, and the last step would be a permanent ban. This isn't me singling you out- I just can't keep turning my back on the post reports like I have been thus far. You need to understand that there are consequences when rules are broken.

 

[Boostdriven]

Finally something all of us can agree on.

You talk to me a out trolling and instigation, what this? But whatever I rest my case

I'm apologize if I offended anyone but there has been plenty of offending remarks sent my way.

Ps. Maybe you should remove this post as well

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I'm apologize if I offended anyone but there has been plenty of offending remarks sent my way.

Really? That is such a half-ass politicians apology. I don't think anyone is looking for an apology. No pretending that everyone is super polite and eloquent here, we don't have to be.

You must've skipped over this part:

you're not really providing us with a wealth of factual information, you're just here causing turmoil

It is fully your attitude and the way you have conflated your experiences to be facts or rules that earn you such responses. Once you acknowledge that culpability, we will all be better off and less derision will be sent your way.

Statements like this:

I don't start arguments I make statements and others argue with what I say, so when I get some fire my way I throw some back. If someone can't handle it then they better not say anything at all

Reinforce that idea. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts," and it takes two people to argue.

Not all opinions deserve equal weighting either. Just because you believe something zealously doesn't make it true or factual, and when that concerns your statements and how you defend them it leads to these situations.

Basically it boils down to this... you figure yourself too clever by half and when you are corrected for something, own it.

When new data comes along that challenges your theory, a wise man changes his theory. Happens to me often enough, as well as others who are truly looking to learn instead of just having an e-Penis waving contest.

When I don't have data or a pattern to back what I say.. I stay out of that thread. If I do and have something new that challenges my understanding introduced to me, like a conversation on brakes with a Wiseman here (JT), I changed my theory and stopped trying to reinforce my prior thought process on the matter.

A great example of how not to handle new information that challenges your understanding is a now infamous thread about an Auto AWD 16G car on street tires with a 1.3x 60' on the time slip.. and the melt down that ensued due to the cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics of a certain poster that was determined to not back down from what he wanted to believe.

 

[Boostdriven]

How I apologize is up to me, how you take it is up to you. You're the one that called me a toolbag
It's my theory that poses an argument to a common belief. Please tell me where I was wrong when I said that Jeff's turbo starved for oil and that's why it went out. You know who I'm talking about, you've seen that thread and if you seen that thread you've seen what Jeff said what Fp told him about his turbo. I'm not an idiot I'm a madman and a toolbag
No mechanical has ever touched my car, all the work has been done by me. It took me a while due to lack of knowledge in the beginning and funds, I'm far from wealthy believe me I've done my shake of mistakes that cost me a lot of money so when I make a comment like why Jeff's turbo went bad, looking at the final outcomes I was write. How much controversy has started from me telling Jeff to remove his restrictor? Fp told him the same thing. So it chaps my ass a bit when people insults me just because my statement contradicts a common belief, and if like you say, not to pretend that we are all super polite then why some of you get defensive and remove my posts

And I do apologize, I think we started off on a wrong foot.

 

[JusMX141]

How I apologize is up to me, how you take it is up to you. You're the one that called me a toolbag
It's my theory that poses an argument to a common belief. Please tell me where I was wrong when I said that Jeff's turbo starved for oil and that's why it went out. You know who I'm talking about, you've seen that thread and if you seen that thread you've seen what Jeff said what Fp told him about his turbo. I'm not an idiot I'm a madman and a toolbag
No mechanical has ever touched my car, all the work has been done by me. It took me a while due to lack of knowledge in the beginning and funds, I'm far from wealthy believe me I've done my shake of mistakes that cost me a lot of money so when I make a comment like why Jeff's turbo went bad, looking at the final outcomes I was write. How much controversy has started from me telling Jeff to remove his restrictor? Fp told him the same thing. So it chaps my ass a bit when people insults me just because my statement contradicts a common belief, and if like you say, not to pretend that we are all super polite then why some of you get defensive and remove my posts

Even your apologies are condescending...you really need to work on that. This here is ALL you needed to say:

And I do apologize, I think we started off on a wrong foot.

....end of discussion. Easy, no?

 

[boostadd1ct]

Very true and that's why most of us ditch the stock breathers and weld on few nice size fittings on our valve covers to help with crank case ventilation.

now when you say ditch the "stock breathers" did you men stock pcv system?

so its a 2 part.

1. vc to IM

2. vc to pre turbo pipe.


I read the whole pcv discussion thread because of my maf install and is there any reason why you would ditch it?

I mean vs to pre turbo turbo is needed for WOT.
I am assuming this is what your talking about "upgrading" to two instead of 1.

but for the vc to IM wouldnt you need that at idle/partial trottle where you will be at most of the time as a DD.


I figured adding an aftermarket 1 way valve with the stock pcv valve is the best way to go.

 

[red_devil]

now when you say ditch the "stock breathers" did you men stock pcv system?

so its a 2 part.

1. vc to IM

2. vc to pre turbo pipe.


I read the whole pcv discussion thread because of my maf install and is there any reason why you would ditch it?

I mean vs to pre turbo turbo is needed for WOT.
I am assuming this is what your talking about "upgrading" to two instead of 1.

but for the vc to IM wouldnt you need that at idle/partial trottle where you will be at most of the time as a DD.


I figured adding an aftermarket 1 way valve with the stock pcv valve is the best way to go.

This thread is getting in all kinds of off topic.
The stock system just does not allow large amounts of crank case pressure to vent from the engine, and they also tend to push oil into the intake and intake manifold. So many will weld on -6an, -8an or even -10an lines to the valve cover and then use a filtered catch can venting to the atmosphere, or a recirculated catch can back to the intake. Those that choose to recirculate keeping the pcv have two catch cans one for the vc to intake and one from vc to intake manifold. I chose to remove the pcv altogether and run two lines from the vc to my catch can back to the intake. My engine has very little blow by and my breather lines are large enough in that I dont have issues when under part throttle.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Your right, this is getting all kinds of off topic. Why did you bother saying anything if it wasn't about a Holset around 450hp? No point in stating the thread is off topic only to stray it further off topic

 

[red_devil]

Your right, this is getting all kinds of off topic. Why did you bother saying anything if it wasn't about a Holset around 450hp? No point in stating the thread is off topic only to stray it further off topic

Even though its getting off topic, I still wanted to help him, thanks for contributing to some of the crap on here.

 

[silversgst]

Didnt want to make a new thread on the same topic. Just got the car tuned last weekend. setup was a hx35 twin scroll housing/ts manifold, meth injection at 25 psi...ONLY MADE 348HP 373LBS??? Thats evo 3 turbo status??? No boost leaks or exhaust leaks. Any ideas...its the 7 blade too.

 

[Kruger]

Just for the record, Turbos also fail from OVER oiling.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Yeah, i know why, your only on 25psi, the 7 and 6 blade holsets make more power at higher boost. Thats not bad for 25psi, just put some race
Gas in and crank it to 35 and you might see close to 480 awhp. I felt the same way when i dynoed 394awhp at 22 psi on the hx40 .55 ar. Then i realized shit. I need to be at 40psi and t3 .70 you have the housing for it, but for that turbo, id consider 25psi to be low boost.

Alot of trucks that run these turbos are running 40-50psi, well on the hx40 anyway.

Just for the record, Turbos also fail from OVER oiling.

Only if your on a ball bearing turbo, or on a journal bearing turbo with an insufficient drain system. Otherwise journal bearing holset turbos love their oil.

 

[silversgst]

Thanks urbansmoker, makes me fell alittle better about my setup I was very concerned when I saw these holset at least 400hp, compared to mine 350hp. Im on the stock block still(not for long) then ill give her what she wants.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Im shooting for 9s on hx40