why such low numbers from holset? (quest for 450whp turbo)

[boostadd1ct]

doing some search on holset bep .55 hx40 and hx35
and found this.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...esults-only-complete-installed-systems-3.html

im curious as to why peoples dyno numbers are bellow 400whp with such a big turbo?

I mean I understand that the bolt on .55 housing is limiting its potential but how can it only produce the same amount of power as a e316g at about the same psi?

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I am fully aware of all that, but the same can be said of 16Gs in the 7cm housings. Many if not most OE turbos are running 2.x:1 drive to boost ratios if not higher.

So we should all be running 1.50A/R housings then?

How else do you propose to spool as fast as these do and move as much air as they do, by your own admission 52lbs/min at 30psi, on a 56+ mm turbo on a 2.0? I don't consider that especially restrictive. Subjective, though that may be.

I had a 59mm BW in a few different housings, I was able to move 55lbs/min ~28-29psi on pump 93 alone in the .55 BEP housing. That is impressive, at least in my opinion. Which I should qualify my posts as such, my opinion. It is an educated one however, and with these housings in comparable turbos.

I don't pretend to be an especially gifted tuner either.

With pump and meth I was able to move just shy of 65lbs/min @ 37-38psi which didn't fall off till it started to approach 8k rpm.

Then I stepped up to the .70 T3 and kept the airflow at with slightly less boost, was able to run more timing and airflow didn't fall off till later in the rev range where the .70 T3 starts to choke.

After that I moved up to the Airwerks divided T4 (0.91? A/R) and maxed out the compressor at 67.x lbs/min with yet less boost and the car didn't start to fall off till the cams ran out around 9250rpm

Now I have a 16cm2 or ~1.21A/R on my current HX52 for running out 3-5 miles at WOT in 5th. But it will be a lag monster as a result of that. If this weren't a top-end only car (LSR/Standing Mile) I probably wouldn't have gone this large.

For a mostly street car, the .55 BEP housing is a great option to get a balance between spool and mass flow.

It is not all that restrictive if you are still moving 500whp worth of air from a sub 60lb/min turbo at only 30psi on a turbo that will service 40psi with relative ease on a 2.0L. Look at the compressor map.

A good tuner and a well thought out combination should have little trouble hitting 450awhp on pump 93 with either the S200sx family of 56-59mm turbos or the HX35/40 family of 56-60mm turbos. Even on the smaller turbines.

Landspeed,

I am in no way saying that these turbos will not make power in the Bolt on housing and in the case of the OP it may be the best option BUT saying that the housing is not restrictive is misleading.

No everone should not run 1.50A/R housings. I never intended for my post to send the OP in that direction. Most housings with a considerable spool on a 2.0 will have some type of restriction, just how much??? In this case I compared the T3 to the .55 BEP and the BEP is more restrictive.

The initial post was speaking of low horsepower numbers. The BEP housing is known to limit (restrict) the potential of these turbos. Of course it is not a 150 HP difference; there is still a difference when comparing it to a T3.

In your example the .55 would be more restrictive than the T3 as well. This is not to say that the .55 will not make good numbers, it just points to a higher restriction.

To the OP,

If you are looking for a 450HP street car, you will be more than happy with a 8 or 7 blade HX35 in a Bolt on housing. Since you are running E85 you will be able to make the numbers you are looking for.

Robert

 

[dsmcurse]

im gonna get my dyno paper posted in like 15min, but id first like to say that anyone that starts talkin S on holeset hx series is half way idiot. these guys arent nicknamed the workhorse for nothin. holeset built these turbos to be over worked and under paid! plain and simple. no other turbo is gonna take a beating like a hx and keep on ticking, the cost and availability makes it a no brainer. i dare any one to list a turbo that will out perform a hx40 for a chaeper price tag. the hx series is with out a doubt the biggest bang for the buck turbo we will find.

and isint that the reason we drive a DSM in the first place? dsm is the biggest bang for the buck platform out there. your not gonna get anyfaster for the money. with that being said why wouldnt you carry that concept over for your choice of turbo? my 95 gsx will put down 550awhp all day on pump. i built this car myself with the help of one friend and im just a little under 20grand spent (this is over a 3 year time spand)

no other high performance four wheel drive is gonna do that for the money. if i went out and got a used 07 sti for like 19grand i would just now have my carpayments paid off and id still have a stock sti. not everyone can afford a brand new evo or gtr. so we pick dsm. and trust me, i would put my homemade dsm car up aginst just about any "expensive" car out there.

hx series is a major contender and there is no way to argue that. guesse what? a guy can purchase a used hx52 off of a volvo semi truck for about 250bucks and rebuild it himself for about 80 bucks. then that hx52 is rollin perfect side by side to that ultra pricy gt42r. now tell me whos the idiot? the guy that did a lil extra work and got the same turbo for under 400 bucks or the a$$hole that just spent 1400?

hx is a work horse and im a firm beleiver that nothing will give you as good of a gain for the buck. dollar for dollar pound for pound you not beat a hx. plain and simple. and to awnser a previous question on mine, no i did not use the mitsu hot housing. i have t3 with 3''v-band out.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

BEP is restrictive Landspeed even contradicts himself by stating high back pressure.

but being restrictive and making HP are two different things, you can still make decent numbers, you just may not get the most out of a holset in a BEP housing

Where do I contradict myself? I'm also aware that you sell competing housings, not that this is a bad thing by any means, but there may be a bit of bias in your thought process.

Again not a bad thing, but this could be coloring your opinion some, in fact if you have any considerations for bigger A/R T4 housings with a standard V-band size for the HX52 I would give you my business.

High back-pressure is subjective at this point, what is too much then?

2:1? 4:1? Anything over 1.5:1?

It's pretty obvious lower is better which is why I picked the turbo I did for my current project, but you will be sacrificing spool going bigger and some people can't deal with that.. which is part of the benefit of running one of these housings.

For that juicy torque curve.

This discussion appears to come down to "what constitutes excessive restriction"

No where did the car feel to fall on its face in the BEP housing when I had it. That is usually a symptom of choke.

If you can squeeze 50+ lbs/min at 2 bar boost running pump gas through that turbine housing from a compressor that only supports 60lbs/min with a small cube motor, is that really "restrictive?"

Even qualified the statements with "my opinion" and some of what I found along the way.

I would wager lot of you would probably be shocked by your actual drive pressure had you the ability to log it. Even on big turbo setups.

Somewhere on here, my back-pressure data posted up in one of these BEP threads somewhere, and really would be curious to see what the HX52 drive:boost is going to look like in comparison. I have a 5bar MAP plumbed specifically for this.

What is the OPs primary use for the car? Sounds like a street duty car, and his goal is only 450whp.

Can he do that in a BEP housing? Yes. On pump gas? With a complimentary set up, certainly.

Landspeed,

I am in no way saying that these turbos will not make power in the Bolt on housing and in the case of the OP it may be the best option BUT saying that the housing is not restrictive is misleading.

No everone should not run 1.50A/R housings. I never intended for my post to send the OP in that direction. Most housings with a considerable spool on a 2.0 will have some type of restriction, just how much??? In this case I compared the T3 to the .55 BEP and the BEP is more restrictive.

The initial post was speaking of low horsepower numbers. The BEP housing is known to limit (restrict) the potential of these turbos. Of course it is not a 150 HP difference; there is still a difference when comparing it to a T3.

In your example the .55 would be more restrictive than the T3 as well. This is not to say that the .55 will not make good numbers, it just points to a higher restriction.

To the OP,

If you are looking for a 450HP street car, you will be more than happy with a 8 or 7 blade HX35 in a Bolt on housing. Since you are running E85 you will be able to make the numbers you are looking for.

Robert

It sounds like we are on the same page, sorry for any friendly fire haha

I tried a few housings and after going all the way to the T4 divided housing from the BEP bolt on I liked them all and was left more impressed with the .55 housings performance in retrospect.

It goes without question that I likely make more power in the bigger housings, and more power per psi boost.

 

[dexterholland04]

HX-40 + BEP T3 + 38 psi boost + Q16 = 65+ lbs/min

Good enough to run low 10's on my car. Even on my original 19 psi wastagate pressure tune and pump gas, the car made 315 on STM's Mustang dyno. I could have made 400+ (on the Mustang dyno) on pump with that turbo/back housing.

 

[dsmcurse]

this dyno pull is over a year old. its hx40 on pump gas on a mustang four wheel drive dyno. the guy at COBB who drove my car short changed me a 1000RPM. i told him to let off at 8800 and he let off at 7800. look at my horsepower curve. its going up and up and up and with out any let off. right now i would expect it to look the same but end between 550 and 570. its very responsive and its not a lazy dog on the streets. hx40 is a major contender no matter what any one says

 

[black_gst]

Where do I contradict myself? I'm also aware that you sell competing housings, not that this is a bad thing by any means, but there may be a bit of bias in your thought process.

Again not a bad thing, but this could be coloring your opinion some, in fact if you have any considerations for bigger A/R T4 housings with a standard V-band size for the HX52 I would give you my business.

High back-pressure is subjective at this point, what is too much then?

2:1? 4:1? Anything over 1.5:1?

It's pretty obvious lower is better which is why I picked the turbo I did for my current project, but you will be sacrificing spool going bigger and some people can't deal with that.. which is part of the benefit of running one of these housings.

For that juicy torque curve.

This discussion appears to come down to "what constitutes excessive restriction"

No where did the car feel to fall on its face in the BEP housing when I had it. That is usually a symptom of choke.

If you can squeeze 50+ lbs/min at 2 bar boost running pump gas through that turbine housing from a compressor that only supports 60lbs/min with a small cube motor, is that really "restrictive?"

Even qualified the statements with "my opinion" and some of what I found along the way.

I would wager lot of you would probably be shocked by your actual drive pressure had you the ability to log it. Even on big turbo setups.

Somewhere on here, my back-pressure data posted up in one of these BEP threads somewhere, and really would be curious to see what the HX52 drive:boost is going to look like in comparison. I have a 5bar MAP plumbed specifically for this.

What is the OPs primary use for the car? Sounds like a street duty car, and his goal is only 450whp.

Can he do that in a BEP housing? Yes. On pump gas? With a complimentary set up, certainly.



It sounds like we are on the same page, sorry for any friendly fire haha

I tried a few housings and after going all the way to the T4 divided housing from the BEP bolt on I liked them all and was left more impressed with the .55 housings performance in retrospect.

It goes without question that I likely make more power in the bigger housings, and more power per psi boost.

Actually i dont sell competing housing i dont sell any bolt on housing, i sell big boy housing

high back pressure in any turbo setup is not ideal, we are on the same track, i just disagree with your statement about the BEP not being restrictive.

but like i said, just becasue it is doesnt mean you cant make decent HP i have a local buddy into the 10.9s on a BEP bolton HX35

 

[boostadd1ct]

To the OP,

If you are looking for a 450HP street car, you will be more than happy with a 8 or 7 blade HX35 in a Bolt on housing. Since you are running E85 you will be able to make the numbers you are looking for.

Robert

is that crank or whp?

if thats whp what other mods are needed? besides what i have in my profile?

the reason i ask is because this guy
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/333098-my-holset-results.html

runs hx40 with magnus im and was at 446whp at 29psi. how can an hx35 make the same at the same boost?

i have no doubt you can make more with more engine work and more pricey item. but looking to do this with basic mods

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

So basically then, it goes back to the question of where is the line for something becoming definitively restrictive?

10.9 is moving. Link to the build/car? Curious to find the specs

 

[black_gst]

So basically then, it goes back to the question of where is the line for something becoming definitively restrictive?

10.9 is moving. Link to the build/car? Curious to find the specs

DSM Forums - View Profile: -red97rum-

he was on spray and had a dead motor comp was like 60psi on a couple of cylinders and shortly after that run he tossed a rod through both sides of the block

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

is that crank or whp?

if thats whp what other mods are needed? besides what i have in my profile?

the reason i ask is because this guy
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/333098-my-holset-results.html

runs hx40 with magnus im and was at 446whp at 29psi. how can an hx35 make the same at the same boost?

i have no doubt you can make more with more engine work and more pricey item. but looking to do this with basic mods

That was on a Dyno Dynamics, tend to read lower than a dyno jet.

That was also on a stock comp 7.8:1 motor

He also has BC272s with no mention of gears so if installed straight up we don't know how much they could be off and this would further alter effective compression.

At 30psi he made 459, and is running pretty conservative for E85.. 11.5:1AFR and 17* peak advance. We don't know what intercooler he has either.

Hardly concerning, and if anything should be encouraging for you.

 

[boostadd1ct]

im gonna get my dyno paper posted in like 15min, but id first like to say that anyone that starts talkin S on holeset hx series is half way idiot. these guys arent nicknamed the workhorse for nothin. holeset built these turbos to be over worked and under paid! plain and simple. no other turbo is gonna take a beating like a hx and keep on ticking, the cost and availability makes it a no brainer. i dare any one to list a turbo that will out perform a hx40 for a chaeper price tag. the hx series is with out a doubt the biggest bang for the buck turbo we will find.

and isint that the reason we drive a DSM in the first place? dsm is the biggest bang for the buck platform out there. your not gonna get anyfaster for the money. with that being said why wouldnt you carry that concept over for your choice of turbo? my 95 gsx will put down 550awhp all day on pump. i built this car myself with the help of one friend and im just a little under 20grand spent (this is over a 3 year time spand)

no other high performance four wheel drive is gonna do that for the money. if i went out and got a used 07 sti for like 19grand i would just now have my carpayments paid off and id still have a stock sti. not everyone can afford a brand new evo or gtr. so we pick dsm. and trust me, i would put my homemade dsm car up aginst just about any "expensive" car out there.

hx series is a major contender and there is no way to argue that. guesse what? a guy can purchase a used hx52 off of a volvo semi truck for about 250bucks and rebuild it himself for about 80 bucks. then that hx52 is rollin perfect side by side to that ultra pricy gt42r. now tell me whos the idiot? the guy that did a lil extra work and got the same turbo for under 400 bucks or the a$$hole that just spent 1400?

hx is a work horse and im a firm beleiver that nothing will give you as good of a gain for the buck. dollar for dollar pound for pound you not beat a hx. plain and simple. and to awnser a previous question on mine, no i did not use the mitsu hot housing. i have t3 with 3''v-band out.

no ones arguing that. unless i miss someones post.

were talking bolt on .55 housing. look at the original post. t3 is a different ballgame so your dyno numbers dont really mean a thing because its not whats being ask.

i mean if your making 450-500whp with mitsu bep and running around 25psi im all ears on your setup.

ive only seen a few and it always had more goodies than your basic bolt on.


if i had 20g to spend dsm would not be my first pick .

theres other ways to go fast. "better" platform depends on the person. if all im concern about is going fast awd would not be my 1st pick.

dsm just match my current needs at the moment

 

[BoostedBeaver]

is that crank or whp?

if thats whp what other mods are needed? besides what i have in my profile?

the reason i ask is because this guy
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/333098-my-holset-results.html

runs hx40 with magnus im and was at 446whp at 29psi. how can an hx35 make the same at the same boost?

i have no doubt you can make more with more engine work and more pricey item. but looking to do this with basic mods

Not sure what the what is wrong with that setup but the numbers do not seem add up. I could be missing something though. You should look at multiple threads and find a happy medium. Look in the results thread that you posted and take a happy medium on HP numbers. Just one setup should not turn you away.

As far as mods, your 950cc injectors will get sucked dry pretty fast. I can't recall how far I made it on 950s and E85 but it was low 20's in boost on the 35. I also upgraded to dual pumps but I do not know how far 1 can stretch??? Maybe a little research will help you find that one.

Robert

 

[dsmcurse]

no ones arguing that. unless i miss someones post.

were talking bolt on .55 housing. look at the original post. t3 is a different ballgame so your dyno numbers dont really mean a thing because its not whats being ask.

i mean if your making 450-500whp with mitsu bep and running around 25psi im all ears on your setup.

ive only seen a few and it always had more goodies than your basic bolt on.


if i had 20g to spend dsm would not be my first pick .

theres other ways to go fast. "better" platform depends on the person. if all im concern about is going fast awd would not be my 1st pick.

dsm just match my current needs at the moment

all im sayin is hx is a beast, they can be rebuilt at home for less than 80 bucks. theres so many options out there. and in my opinion any one lookin to make serious power (anything over 400awhp is startin to get serious) is gonna ditch the mitsu flange set up anyhow. your gonna need a nice turbo header as the factory cast mannifolds are a choke point. the factory mitsu flange out, NOBODY USES THAT ANY MORE. 5bolt o2sensor housing is a thing of the past. back to the future baby, its called v-band.

i guess its just sort of a touchy subject for a few people. i for one get sick and tired of hearing people bashin on hx. "quit bein a cheap bastard and buy a real turbo" stupid stuff like "its old outdated diesel turbo" well half the peolpe out there talkin S dont make no more than 350hp and they all praise a evo3 16g like its the god of all turbos.

i once bought a BRAND NEW evo316g from slowboyracing, paid full price for it. i was totally pist off and regretted that purchase in under a week. i have a honda friend that has a GREDDY 16g and he talks it up so damn big. i get sick of hearing it. i know alot of people running hx, from a 35 to a 52. i dont know a single person that has "low HP numbers" every hx owner i know couldnt be happier with the set up.

 

[boostadd1ct]

That was on a Dyno Dynamics, tend to read lower than a dyno jet.

That was also on a stock comp 7.8:1 motor

He also has BC272s with no mention of gears so if installed straight up we don't know how much they could be off and this would further alter effective compression.

At 30psi he made 459, and is running pretty conservative for E85.. 11.5:1AFR and 17* peak advance. We don't know what intercooler he has either.

Hardly concerning, and if anything should be encouraging for you.

true. Im just curious if ill be able to get 450whp without the magnus and 29psi.

its a dd so id rather keep it at 25ish. But if im not happy it will get rampped up to 28-29ish. (same thing happened to my e316G) so the last thing i want is to change my setup again in one month. which then defeats the purpose b/c ill have to change it again to get my power goal at 25ish psi.

Im also considering switching back to 91 and 50/50 just because its really annoying to be able to only fill up at one gas station and having to fill up before 1/4 tank "just incase"

Not sure what the what is wrong with that setup but the numbers do not seem add up. I could be missing something though. You should look at multiple threads and find a happy medium. Look in the results thread that you posted and take a happy medium on HP numbers. Just one setup should not turn you away.

As far as mods, your 950cc injectors will get sucked dry pretty fast. I can't recall how far I made it on 950s and E85 but it was low 20's in boost on the 35. I also upgraded to dual pumps but I do not know how far 1 can stretch??? Maybe a little research will help you find that one.

Robert

I did

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...-results-only-complete-installed-systems.html

that post is all about holset results. thats about average seems like.


and yea 950cc is on the way out. when i get a turbo. its near 90% idc with my e316g.

and single walbro should be good for 450whp on e85. 500 might be pushing it on single though.

so fuel stuff I got covered. its just a turbo setup that im trying to figure out without costing a fortune.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Look at the compressor map and plot your engine demand, where is that compressor moving 45-50lbs/min efficiently that matches your engines demand flow? You'll likely see its right around 28-30psi depending on VE.

Boost is not equivalent to cylinder pressure. All things kept equal 450whp worth of cylinder pressure at the same rpm is not going to change whether you do it with a 20G or a GT42R.

So say you make that 450whp at 6500rpm, whether you are at 15 or 30psi boost does not matter to your bottom end.

The 6-bolt intake manifold while not ideal for high-rpm power, has made ~780whp @ 30psi with an HX52 according to Steven Johnson. I've moved 67lbs/min through one before changing up to the JMF unit I have now, but I don't dyno my cars.

Trap speed or 70-90/80-100 times are all I use to compare.

If you think you'll get bored and want more power in the future as most of us do, go straight to the HX40 and size your injectors and pump accordingly using E85 for worst case scenario.

My preference is to find a pump that can flow what I need under the highest possible pressure at the lowest conceivable voltage for the richest AFR I intend to run. Then I pick the injector that can deliver that fuel at only 80% IDC.

So for the HX52 I checked out what would handle 100lbs/min worth of airflow at 10.5:1AFR, with a combined fuel pressure of 90psi at 13vDC without a pump controller for continuous duty and after talking to a couple different manufacturers I decided on the Magnafuel 4303.

For injectors I will be running 450cc primaries and 2150cc secondaries. If this proves insufficient I have 850s I can put in place of the 450s.

Hope that helps.

 

[boostadd1ct]

all im sayin is hx is a beast, they can be rebuilt at home for less than 80 bucks. theres so many options out there. and in my opinion any one lookin to make serious power (anything over 400awhp is startin to get serious) is gonna ditch the mitsu flange set up anyhow. your gonna need a nice turbo header as the factory cast mannifolds are a choke point. the factory mitsu flange out, NOBODY USES THAT ANY MORE. 5bolt o2sensor housing is a thing of the past. back to the future baby, its called v-band.

i guess its just sort of a touchy subject for a few people. i for one get sick and tired of hearing people bashin on hx. "quit bein a cheap bastard and buy a real turbo" stupid stuff like "its old outdated diesel turbo" well half the peolpe out there talkin S dont make no more than 350hp and they all praise a evo3 16g like its the god of all turbos.

i once bought a BRAND NEW evo316g from slowboyracing, paid full price for it. i was totally pist off and regretted that purchase in under a week. i have a honda friend that has a GREDDY 16g and he talks it up so damn big. i get sick of hearing it. i know alot of people running hx, from a 35 to a 52. i dont know a single person that has "low HP numbers" every hx owner i know couldnt be happier with the set up.

um ok.

1. I agree with you. holset is a very good contender thats why im considering it. im just confused on why the mitsu bep have a hard time making the numbers.

2. I dont have a factory exhaust manifold. vband is nice but its not what makes the power. I use it and so do does a bunch of people. thing of the past or not if it makes what I want and in my budget id use it


3. what do you consider low numbers?
a happy owner is really subjective. most people will be happy at 300. then theres us that likes more than 400. then theres others thats happy at 500+

now when you say that. are you talking about bep mitsu? still cause that is still whats being discussed .

t3 t4 no doubt. but not whats being ask here.

 

[dsmcurse]

i remember when i very first got a hx40. it had the bullseypower .55 housing. it used mitsu flange in and mitsu flange out. at the time my mannifold was a obx. i have 2 boost gauges on the car. first gauge is plumbed into my intake mannifold plenum with a nylon hose (boost gauge) the second gauge is installed in the exhaust mannifold befor the turbo using bendable flexable metal copper hose (back pressure gauge) with that housing at 29 pounds of intake manni pressure i would see about 24 pounds of exhaust manni pressure.

i knew right off the get go that a way nicer turbo mannifold was in need as well as a new turbine housing. so i upgraded the housing. as i do remember the .55 acting as a choke point. i cant post any hard facts or dyno results cause i made the switch pretty fast.

but heres a trick that will work on a .55 housing to aid in the fight aginst to high a backpressure. install a boost activated exhaust cut out in the down pipe. i took a ebay cheap generic 60mm external wastegate and installed it after my turbo in the down pipe (about where the oil filter sits) the wastegate has a 10psi spring so under normal driving and low boost i have regular downpipe but once i exceed ten pounds of boost i magically get a 60mm dump hole in my down pipe. that mod will do alot of justice for the .55 housing

 

[tron2119]

Look at the compressor map and plot your engine demand, where is that compressor moving 45-50lbs/min efficiently that matches your engines demand flow? You'll likely see its right around 28-30psi depending on VE.

Boost is not equivalent to cylinder pressure. All things kept equal 450whp worth of cylinder pressure at the same rpm is not going to change whether you do it with a 20G or a GT42R.

So say you make that 450whp at 6500rpm, whether you are at 15 or 30psi boost does not matter to your bottom end.

The 6-bolt intake manifold while not ideal for high-rpm power, has made ~780whp @ 30psi with an HX52 according to Steven Johnson. I've moved 67lbs/min through one before changing up to the JMF unit I have now, but I don't dyno my cars.

Trap speed or 70-90/80-100 times are all I use to compare.

If you think you'll get bored and want more power in the future as most of us do, go straight to the HX40 and size your injectors and pump accordingly using E85 for worst case scenario.

My preference is to find a pump that can flow what I need under the highest possible pressure at the lowest conceivable voltage for the richest AFR I intend to run. Then I pick the injector that can deliver that fuel at only 80% IDC.

So for the HX52 I checked out what would handle 100lbs/min worth of airflow at 10.5:1AFR, with a combined fuel pressure of 90psi at 13vDC without a pump controller for continuous duty and after talking to a couple different manufacturers I decided on the Magnafuel 4303.

For injectors I will be running 450cc primaries and 2150cc secondaries. If this proves insufficient I have 850s I can put in place of the 450s.

Hope that helps.

That's spot on. I was wondering why he is so concerned with a specific amount of boost. I mean, after a certain point you're going to have to upgrade your head bolts to studs. And the stock bottom end is good for 500+hp with the right tune. So who care if you have to run 20 or 30 psi to get to your goal...??

Also, if have already looked in the results thread, you'll see that most have good luck and love their holsets. Many are in the low 11's with the bolt on housing. One or two are in the high 10's. I think with more research on YOUR part, you'll see what you need to hit your goals.

 

[boostadd1ct]

i remember when i very first got a hx40. it had the bullseypower .55 housing. it used mitsu flange in and mitsu flange out. at the time my mannifold was a obx. i have 2 boost gauges on the car. first gauge is plumbed into my intake mannifold plenum with a nylon hose (boost gauge) the second gauge is installed in the exhaust mannifold befor the turbo using bendable flexable metal copper hose (back pressure gauge) with that housing at 29 pounds of intake manni pressure i would see about 24 pounds of exhaust manni pressure.

i knew right off the get go that a way nicer turbo mannifold was in need as well as a new turbine housing. so i upgraded the housing. as i do remember the .55 acting as a choke point. i cant post any hard facts or dyno results cause i made the switch pretty fast.

but heres a trick that will work on a .55 housing to aid in the fight aginst to high a backpressure. install a boost activated exhaust cut out in the down pipe. i took a ebay cheap generic 60mm external wastegate and installed it after my turbo in the down pipe (about where the oil filter sits) the wastegate has a 10psi spring so under normal driving and low boost i have regular downpipe but once i exceed ten pounds of boost i magically get a 60mm dump hole in my down pipe. that mod will do alot of justice for the .55 housing

you know what thats what I didnt consider on the bep mitsu. I noticed that majority of people run a very restrictive "o2" housing/downpipe. so it really limits the flow. as well as sometimes crush bends exhausts.

but anyways I learned early on my supra days when I used a ddp.

my setup it a 3" cutout that dumps down right after the bend from the turbo. so maybe 1' of dp to open atmosphere.(downpipe is 3" custom made by me.-only 1 bend.)

I also have an external 38mm waste gate that is also open. so its separated from the main exhaust.

so i think post turbo it breath..... ^^^ that setup took me awhile to fab which is another reason I wanted to keep the mitsu flange.

 

[bastarddsm]

Your only going to make good numbers with the t3 .70 hotside housing and lots of race gas/e85 and boost. Don't exspect alot on pump gas with those turbos. buy a gt35 or something nice holset is a waste of money imo, unless you throw alot at it.

You don't have a clue man. 604whp out of a 54mm turbo at 35psi isn't good numbers? Hell I made 400 on my WH1c at 26psi with pump and a GARBAGE intercooler.

No the BEP Bolt-on housing is not restrictive.

I was able to get almost the full 67lbs/min flow out of the bolt-on housing with a 59mm BW S200sx at high boost, but back pressure was through the roof. Point is, it still did it though.
If you are looking to make 450whp at "low" boost which to my mind is in the low 20s you can use an HX40 in the bolt on housing with a very aggressive tune on E85 and a lot of rpm on a big cam..

I have had mid 400's on a couple different holset setups at 25psi. Wh1c in a bolton, and 12cm, as well as my HY35.

I have to disagree with this information and you state latter in your post the reason why.

The motor is only effecient if it can get rid of the air as fast as it puts it in. With this smaller housing that can not happen. This builds massive amounts of backpressure (as you stated) and greatly decreases VE. This also makes the motor more knock prone in some cases where there is some valve overlap. If the backpressure is double your boost and you valves overlap, then the supper hot exhaust is shoved back into the cylinder for the next combustion process.

I am not saying that you are totally wrong with your whole post, but saying that this housing is not restrictive is very misleading.

Yes I have almost hit the max airflow of 52lb/min on the 8 blade 35 in the bolt on housing but I have to run 30 or so PSI on E85 to get there. If you where to run the T3 housing you could get this type of flow earlier in the boost range, keep the turbo at a happy effeciency cycle, and run pump gas in some cases.

Robert

Ehh your worrying way too much about what you think is happening. I was seeing about 2:1 on my HY35 at 30psi and 8000rpm. I hate to see what its doing at 35psi and 9000. Yet it's made 604, and it made more than 550 from 5500 to 9000.....based on my fuel usage I figure its moving about 61lb/min...

I have read in some texts and white papers where a small amount of egr can suppress detonation under high load conditions. The reason is suspected to be that the egr dilutes the charge and it does not burn as hot which keeps the chamber temps down. It also slows down the burn rate which helps keep the flame front from colliding with burning end gasses, should they happen to auto ignite. That collision is what detonation primarily is.


The real reason people don't make shit on pump gas is for a number of reasons:
1. Shit intercooler. Yeah that big ass cheap IC isn't getting your ait's down to ambient.
2. Weak tune. Guaranteed any shop is going to leave a lot left on the table. Who's gonna get the blame when they tune it to the edge and it puke 5 min later even tho it made lots of power?
3. Poorly set up car. Most people in those post claim they had boost leaks, or are running a 2g maf on the turbo, or have some other issue holding them back.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I was seeing about 2:1 on my HY35 at 30psi and 8000rpm

This is with the Variable Vein housing Correct???? Just interested.

Robert

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You don't have a clue man. 604whp out of a 54mm turbo at 35psi isn't good numbers? Hell I made 400 on my WH1c at 26psi with pump and a GARBAGE intercooler.



I have had mid 400's on a couple different holset setups at 25psi. Wh1c in a bolton, and 12cm, as well as my HY35.



Ehh your worrying way too much about what you think is happening. I was seeing about 2:1 on my HY35 at 30psi and 8000rpm. I hate to see what its doing at 35psi and 9000. Yet it's made 604, and it made more than 550 from 5500 to 9000.....based on my fuel usage I figure its moving about 61lb/min...

I have read in some texts and white papers where a small amount of egr can suppress detonation under high load conditions. The reason is suspected to be that the egr dilutes the charge and it does not burn as hot which keeps the chamber temps down. It also slows down the burn rate which helps keep the flame front from colliding with burning end gasses, should they happen to auto ignite. That collision is what detonation primarily is.


The real reason people don't make shit on pump gas is for a number of reasons:
1. Shit intercooler. Yeah that big ass cheap IC isn't getting your ait's down to ambient.
2. Weak tune. Guaranteed any shop is going to leave a lot left on the table. Who's gonna get the blame when they tune it to the edge and it puke 5 min later even tho it made lots of power?
3. Poorly set up car. Most people in those post claim they had boost leaks, or are running a 2g maf on the turbo, or have some other issue holding them back.

I was waiting for you to chime in.

Though, your results could be explained a-typical (same could be said about my 14B, S16G and S259 results but I don't dyno my cars) and further bolsters my own thoughts and experiences with this. That a well complimented setup should be more than capable of what the OP is looking for on the BEP DSM housing.

I'd be curious to see what the internal volume of the scroll on that 9cm Open T3 is compared to the DSM BEP Bolt-on as I don't think we can directly compare nozzle area or A/R between the two, maybe the displacement inside would shed at least some light....

 

[dsmcurse]

post number 45, i couldnt agree more, people usualy have poor results do to a lack of tuning. there are so many things to figure into account when building set ups like this. stock maf will not work. period. plug type and gap will be a major part, water/meth will be a important roll as no pump gas in north america is worth a crap. america gets diet fuel, rest of the major countries get quality fuel. i think the turbo is just a small part of the puzzle. any real power on pump gas is gonna require a ecu tune from someone who truly knows what there doing. the fuel system and water meth system is gonna make up a large portion of the puzzle too

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

This is with the Variable Vein housing Correct???? Just interested.

Robert

I was under the impression this is a plain jane T3 housing

 

[bastarddsm]

This is with the Variable Vein housing Correct???? Just interested.

Robert

No that thing is an abomination of shit. I'm was running the HY35 which only has a 9cm single scroll with a 65/58mm turbine and a 54/78mm compressor. I finally blew it up trying to make more than 604, and swapped in a HE351CW which is the same hot side but with a 60/8?mm compressor. It was also run in the HY's turbine housing. No other changes, not even to the tune running 35psi it made 653, but on the way to the track a failed cas puked the motor, so no times for this year.

If I was going to run a vgt turbo it would be a duramax turbo mounted off to the side above the trans.