The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

Well, I'v been rained out a few times since august and last weekend had my house flooded w/ back to back hurricanes. My local track, Island Dragway is under water still, so Nelson and I are planning to drive out to Numidia Dragway in PA on saturday to make some T&T passes. This is pretty much the last hurrah on the 14b as Im going to stick a 16 on for the Mitsu race at Etown on Oct 15th.

No major changes since the last time out (11.7 then blown up on nos) other than repairs and fixing my motor mount issures (missing bolts and wrong brackets). Hope to get right to spraying it in hopes of getting a clean w/ nitrous pass in to take the record and have the monkey off my back for a while.

Wish me luck.

 

[SBstar]

Good luck Nate! Hope to see a strong outing from ya.

 

[Fejery4491]

Whoa....I subscribed to this back at like page 13 and hadn't looked at it since, looks like I got some reading to do! In the meantime, can anyone tell me the current 2g with 14b record...?

 

[Phil1320]

Well, I'v been rained out a few times since august and last weekend had my house flooded w/ back to back hurricanes. My local track, Island Dragway is under water still, so Nelson and I are planning to drive out to Numidia Dragway in PA on saturday to make some T&T passes. This is pretty much the last hurrah on the 14b as Im going to stick a 16 on for the Mitsu race at Etown on Oct 15th.

No major changes since the last time out (11.7 then blown up on nos) other than repairs and fixing my motor mount issures (missing bolts and wrong brackets). Hope to get right to spraying it in hopes of getting a clean w/ nitrous pass in to take the record and have the monkey off my back for a while.

Wish me luck.

Go get it Nate! I predict [email protected]

Whoa....I subscribed to this back at like page 13 and hadn't looked at it since, looks like I got some reading to do! In the meantime, can anyone tell me the current 2g with 14b record...?

I don't know if any of us are sure about that one at all. I know no 2G 14b car has been in the 11's yet. I would say it's in the low/mid 12's.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Well, I went to the track last night for the first time in a few months to test out my new Quaife LSD. Last time I went I got a personal best of 14.1@113 with a 2.4 60' with the stock open diff. The LSD made the car feel completely different. I was having a lot of trouble getting a good launch and was getting wheel hop (which i wasn't getting before) so much the wipers were coming on in first and/or second. I lowered my launch to 3,500 RPMS and my tire pressure to 28 psi and managed to squeeze out a 2.3 60' (my best ever) and ran a 14.2@111. My car wasn't trapping as high as last time. My boost was hitting 20 psi in 2nd - 4th gears and then dropping to 14 psi in 2nd, 15 in 3rd, and holding 17 in 4th to about 5,700 RPMs though the traps. I'm going to try to swap to a 7cm housing and port my 2g manifold next month before going back. 2 Slicks are high on the list too. I feel that if I can hold more boost and get another 2.3 60', I'll FINALLY drop into the 13's on my FWD with street tires.

 

[SBstar]

You have stock cams right Nate? Seems that perhaps that 7cm housing helps the 14b hold boost. At least you got back out and showed the lsd helped the launch. I've gone as low as 24psi on the street tires so I wouldn't be afraid to try A lil lower even.

On another note I may be putting some cams in the car while its down. HKS 264/272's passed down from a buddy who got some gsc's. I haven't fully decided but it'd be a good time to do it while the motor is down.

Go get it Nate! I predict [email protected]



I don't know if any of us are sure about that one at all. I know no 2G 14b car has been in the 11's yet. I would say it's in the low/mid 12's.

There was a 2g guy in this thread who claimed to have ran an 11. He stated nearly full weight and I don't think he ever provided any proof of his setup which is why he wasn't included in the times list.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

You have stock cams right Nate? Seems that perhaps that 7cm housing helps the 14b hold boost. At least you got back out and showed the lsd helped the launch. I've gone as low as 24psi on the street tires so I wouldn't be afraid to try A lil lower even.

On another note I may be putting some cams in the car while its down. HKS 264/272's passed down from a buddy who got some gsc's. I haven't fully decided but it'd be a good time to do it while the motor is down.



There was a 2g guy in this thread who claimed to have ran an 11. He stated nearly full weight and I don't think he ever provided any proof of his setup which is why he wasn't included in the times list.

Stock cams, the whole head is stock in fact (besides 3g lifters). I feel that the 7cm housing and porting will help me a lot. I am also interested in how you shimmed your wastegate. Can you link to me more info on the topic? Do you guys think that may help me or am I completely restricted by the 6cm housing?

My first couple of passes where the standard 2.4-2.6 60's and I was getting dissapointed. The I started getting the feel of it and managed to pull that 2.3. I know I should still be able to get it down a little more. My first couple of passes were with 30 psi, I dropped it to 28 and got my 2.3 and then tried 26 for my last pass and the time slip didn't print

I also think that the boost by gear feature on link will help me too but I will have to upgrade to the full version first.

 

[Steve93Talon]

You've gotta try some slicks, it's completely night and day. I pulled a best of 1.88 on my first time out with them on the stock open diff. I have my doubts about how much a 7cm housing will help, considering the two quickest cars were on 6cms. What does your car weigh?

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

You've gotta try some slicks, it's completely night and day. I pulled a best of 1.88 on my first time out with them on the stock open diff. I have my doubts about how much a 7cm housing will help, considering the two quickest cars were on 6cms. What does your car weigh?

Slicks are high on my list, but I have a personal goal of running at least a 13.99 on street tires. I have never weighed my car but it is a FWD with full interior(minus the AC, cruise control, tire/jack, and some sound deadening material). I feel the 7cm will help me at least hold my boost. Like I mentioned it is dropping down to as low as 14 psi. If you have any other sugestions for holding boost I am all ears!

 

[91stocker]

That sounds like the flapper is blowing open. Maybe shim the actuator or put a vacuum on the actuator, like off the brake booster, etc. It should hold a few more then 14 with stock cams and IM.

 

[forcefed86]

Slicks are high on my list, but I have a personal goal of running at least a 13.99 on street tires. I have never weighed my car but it is a FWD with full interior(minus the AC, cruise control, tire/jack, and some sound deadening material). I feel the 7cm will help me at least hold my boost. Like I mentioned it is dropping down to as low as 14 psi. If you have any other sugestions for holding boost I am all ears!

Cap your BOV for a run and see if the boost goes any higher. Sounds like you have a leak to me...

 

[SBstar]

I've never experienced boost dropping off. I do run the 7cm housing though. People have been shimming the wastegate for years to hold more boost. Just be smarter than me and start with one thin washer and add more as needed! Adding the washers ensure that the flapper is fully closed and also adds tension to the wastegate spring keeping it from opening as easily.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

That sounds like the flapper is blowing open. Maybe shim the actuator or put a vacuum on the actuator, like off the brake booster, etc. It should hold a few more then 14 with stock cams and IM.

I know there is a crack on the hotside by the flapper, it could be leaking from there. I would like to try the shimming method, but I'm still not 100% clear on how you guys are doing this. Can someone post a picture with it done?

Cap your BOV for a run and see if the boost goes any higher. Sounds like you have a leak to me...

Its a Tial 50mm and I've done boost leak tests and haven't found any current ones.

I've never experienced boost dropping off. I do run the 7cm housing though. People have been shimming the wastegate for years to hold more boost. Just be smarter than me and start with one thin washer and add more as needed! Adding the washers ensure that the flapper is fully closed and also adds tension to the wastegate spring keeping it from opening as easily.

I will for sure learn from what happened to your engine and turn the boost down first and see how it goes. I am very open to try this though.

 

[91stocker]

I know there is a crack on the hotside by the flapper, it could be leaking from there. I would like to try the shimming method, but I'm still not 100% clear on how you guys are doing this. Can someone post a picture with it done?

Post #9 has a good pic.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...-anyone-shim-there-14b-16g-20g-wastegate.html


You could also use a holset actuator. Same idea.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...oking-strong-internal-wastegate-actuator.html

Or tee your wg into the brake booster line after the check valve. We used this method on my friends 2g with a small 16g. His fell off bad like that too, but because of his cams and smim. Afterwards it held 2-3 more to redline.

 

[Nate Crisman]

At track now:
No nitrous 14b awd auto:
1/4. 11.377 @ 116.63
1/8. 7.165 @ 94.79
60'. 1.473

Turning on 100 shot next run!!! Wish me luck.

 

[SBstar]

At track now:
No nitrous 14b awd auto:
1/4. 11.377 @ 116.63
1/8. 7.165 @ 94.79
60'. 1.473

Turning on 100 shot next run!!! Wish me luck.

WHAT! Way to go Nate! Smoked that original w/nitrous time without the nawwwz and took the 14b awd no nitrous "record" to boot! Congratulations...Don't get too comfortable wink wink


Maybe that will kick Phil in the butt to get that project going!

Just for the record Nate, I've lost track of exactly what your setup is now. What is the current mod list and what fuel are you on, are you trying that E85/Race fuel mix?

 

[DJ23GSX]

I have personally run the 6cm and 7cm housings on my current 14b and with the 7cm I experience more boost fall off in the upper rpms due to the bigger wastegate flapper blowing open. It was so bad that without any shims on the weak stock actuator it was blowing wide open at 5k rpms and boost would drop to 0. I ran 17psi to red line rock solid with the 6cm housing then after swapping to the 7cm I am running 19psi and it was falling off to 14psi by redline. I custom fit a 14psi garrett actuator on the 7cm housing now with an adjustable arm and even still at 19psi it falls to about 16psi by redline. I've tried everything but my boost falls no matter what when I run anything over 15-16psi. My fall off is a bit weird though it seems to fall off roughly 4psi no matter where I set the boost. I made a few pulls at 24psi and boost was only falling to 20psi by redline. 22psi fell off to 18psi etc. I've also noticed that the fall off is noticeably worse on those 90* summer days but now on these last few cold days I am actually getting boost creep cause my actuator arm is adjusted so tight. I can't win so I just live with it . I'm hesitant to drop a couple hundred bucks on an external gate cause I've been told that boost fall of is normal for the lil 14b once you start nearing the 20psi range.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Post #9 has a good pic.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...-anyone-shim-there-14b-16g-20g-wastegate.html

Thanks! I didn't realize you where putting the shims/washers between the compressor cover and the wastegate actuator bracket.

I have personally run the 6cm and 7cm housings on my current 14b and with the 7cm I experience more boost fall off in the upper rpms due to the bigger wastegate flapper blowing open. It was so bad that without any shims on the weak stock actuator it was blowing wide open at 5k rpms and boost would drop to 0. I ran 17psi to red line rock solid with the 6cm housing then after swapping to the 7cm I am running 19psi and it was falling off to 14psi by redline. I custom fit a 14psi garrett actuator on the 7cm housing now with an adjustable arm and even still at 19psi it falls to about 16psi by redline. I've tried everything but my boost falls no matter what when I run anything over 15-16psi. My fall off is a bit weird though it seems to fall off roughly 4psi no matter where I set the boost. I made a few pulls at 24psi and boost was only falling to 20psi by redline. 22psi fell off to 18psi etc. I've also noticed that the fall off is noticeably worse on those 90* summer days but now on these last few cold days I am actually getting boost creep cause my actuator arm is adjusted so tight. I can't win so I just live with it . I'm hesitant to drop a couple hundred bucks on an external gate cause I've been told that boost fall of is normal for the lil 14b once you start nearing the 20psi range.

So it seems that the internal wastegate is the real issue here? So switching to an external setup would allow me to hold my boost, rather then switching to a 7cm housing? Or both?

 

[91stocker]

You could always weld the flapper shut

At track now:
No nitrous 14b awd auto:
1/4. 11.377 @ 116.63
1/8. 7.165 @ 94.79
60'. 1.473

Turning on 100 shot next run!!! Wish me luck.

Gratz man, that would take the record.

Now on record runs do they need to be backed up?

 

[DJ23GSX]

Thanks! I didn't realize you where putting the shims/washers between the compressor cover and the wastegate actuator bracket.


So it seems that the internal wastegate is the real issue here? So switching to an external setup would allow me to hold my boost, rather then switching to a 7cm housing? Or both?

I'm guessing your not shimming your actuator at all right? I would try that first before anything if I were you. It very easy to do so why not. It def helped my situation but didn't cure it. I also noticed the spool up was noticeably quicker with the shimmed actuator too. I've had a few conversations with some other dsmer's about this issue and they tell me that its normal for the 14b to drop off in the upper rpm's regardless of what wastegate you use. I don't know if this is 100% true or not so thats why I haven't dumped a few hundred bucks on an external to find out . They told me that because of the size of the 14b it just can't maintain boost pressure in the upper rpms but its still flowing the same amount of air if that makes sense.

I'd love to hear more about this matter from anyone with an external gate on the 14b.

As you can see the 7cm housing is def bigger and will flow a lot better its just that in my case the larger surface area of the bigger flapper door on the 7cm housing started blowing open with my stock unshimmed actuator. I had no boost fall off on my 6cm housing but on the same hand I didn't have the fuel to run more than 16-17psi with it either.

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If I had the time and there weren't so many other things to do to my dsm I would like to put the 6cm housing back on and see if the boost still falls off. In all honesty I didn't feel any difference between the 2 in terms of performance.

 

[rhamlinii]

At track now:
No nitrous 14b awd auto:
1/4. 11.377 @ 116.63
1/8. 7.165 @ 94.79
60'. 1.473

Turning on 100 shot next run!!! Wish me luck.

DAMN, kicking ass and taking names. Shit, I guess Phill is second once again. Makes me want to build a small turbo car for shit's and giggles once again. I'm just having to much fun with this S366. Your accomplishment is well derserved with all the motors problums you been trough, trying to get her to run. Can you post a log, and did you make the 10.50 14b nitrous goal aswell? FYI, i'd never question you integrity. Just try to make another run with the solinoids not in the car, if anyone gives you any shit. CONGRATS again, sir.

 

[Nate Crisman]

ARG....today turned out the same as the last two attempts: blown up again!

The car ran two good passes on the 14b alone:

11.500 @ 115 on a 1.48. This was clean, but had a bunch of knock sensor activity again starting during spoolup on the starting line. I pulled the plugs, they look perfect. AFR is mid 11's. Timing is very low only 9* going up to 14*. The tune is what I would call WEAK. It shouldn't be knocking on E85, and especially not on the "special" E85 Im running from PowerMist: RL85E. It's pure E100 blended with 116 octane gasoline.

So I decide to shut off the knock sensor as Im thinking the plugs look fine and the knock sensor could be physically/electrically bad or too tight. I loosen and hand tighten the sensor, and set DSMlink to not use the knock sensor logic below 8000rpm, effectively disabling it.

11.37 @ 116.6 on a 1.473 car runs great, feels smooth and clean. Picked up 2mph from the few degrees of timing with the knock sensor being quiet and not retarding 3-4 degrees. Pull plugs...again, spotless and clean. AFR still mid 11's and smooth. Timing is from 14* to 18*

At that point Im thinking that was a very solid run without nitrous and likely about as good at it's going to get on the 14b/no nos. Iv got the nitrous kit jetted at .026N/.020F. 700psi of bottle pressure, 40psi fuel pressure. The jetting should be on the fat side and produce about 100hp hit. So I go for it with the secondary timing map taking out 3* of total timing when the nitrous comes on in 2nd gear at 55mph.

The car leaves great, nails a 1.466 launch. 1-2 shift, nitrous comes on, and DAMN it feels good. 2-3 shift, Im excited...feels like it's WAY faster than the last run. 3-4 shift at about half track and boom.

Ended up with an 11.3 @ 87mph on the brakes. It was a 4.55 330' time and a 6.9 @ 102mph half track. Was still something like 4 tenths faster at the 1000' compared to the best non/nitrous run. So disapointed, that definately would have been something in the 10's.

Get the car to the pits...pull plugs: Cyl #3 spark plug has no porcelain and no compression. Other cyl's look fine, plugs good, no speckels of detonation, nice and tan color porcelain. At this point I don't know WTF is going on with the nitrous setup, but there is definately something up in there. Distribution, a plugged fuel passage, something.

Looks like yet again, I'v ate at least a cyl head. Will see when I get it apart.

Will post scan of the slip (left them in truck) and youtube vids asap.


To top it all off: The datalogg from the last run w/ nitrous is cut off right at the launch. I left the laptop on in the car without saving the log while towing it off the track and it got messed up. So I have no log to see what the AFR was and such. Just great for diagnosing what went wrong!

Then we go to pack up and go home, (wife and kids came out to the track with me today), and the kids killed the battery in the durango (tow vehicle) watching DVD's! ARG. Go to pop hood and jumpstart the truck and find the hood is stuck shut! AAAARRRRRGGGG Wifey was sitting on the hood watching, must have jammed the latch. I end up saying "F-IT" and left the truck/trailer/racecar in the pits and went home in the wife's car. I'll go back to Island tomorrow and try to get it straightened out. Naturally, I left the timeslips in the durango.

Seriously, my luck is utter poop.

 

[rhamlinii]

ARG....today turned out the same as the last two attempts: blown up again!

The car ran two good passes on the 14b alone:

11.500 @ 115 on a 1.48. This was clean, but had a bunch of knock sensor activity again starting during spoolup on the starting line. I pulled the plugs, they look perfect. AFR is mid 11's. Timing is very low only 9* going up to 14*. The tune is what I would call WEAK. It shouldn't be knocking on E85, and especially not on the "special" E85 Im running from PowerMist: RL85E. It's pure E100 blended with 116 octane gasoline.

So I decide to shut off the knock sensor as Im thinking the plugs look fine and the knock sensor could be physically/electrically bad or too tight. I loosen and hand tighten the sensor, and set DSMlink to not use the knock sensor logic below 8000rpm, effectively disabling it.

11.37 @ 116.6 on a 1.473 car runs great, feels smooth and clean. Picked up 2mph from the few degrees of timing with the knock sensor being quiet and not retarding 3-4 degrees. Pull plugs...again, spotless and clean. AFR still mid 11's and smooth. Timing is from 14* to 18*

At that point Im thinking that was a very solid run without nitrous and likely about as good at it's going to get on the 14b/no nos. Iv got the nitrous kit jetted at .026N/.020F. 700psi of bottle pressure, 40psi fuel pressure. The jetting should be on the fat side and produce about 100hp hit. So I go for it with the secondary timing map taking out 3* of total timing when the nitrous comes on in 2nd gear at 55mph.

The car leaves great, nails a 1.466 launch. 1-2 shift, nitrous comes on, and DAMN it feels good. 2-3 shift, Im excited...feels like it's WAY faster than the last run. 3-4 shift at about half track and boom.

Ended up with an 11.3 @ 87mph on the brakes. It was a 4.55 330' time and a 6.9 @ 102mph half track. Was still something like 4 tenths faster at the 1000' compared to the best non/nitrous run. So disapointed, that definately would have been something in the 10's.

Get the car to the pits...pull plugs: Cyl #3 spark plug has no porcelain and no compression. Other cyl's look fine, plugs good, no speckels of detonation, nice and tan color porcelain. At this point I don't know WTF is going on with the nitrous setup, but there is definately something up in there. Distribution, a plugged fuel passage, something.

Looks like yet again, I'v ate at least a cyl head. Will see when I get it apart.

Will post scan of the slip (left them in truck) and youtube vids asap.


To top it all off: The datalogg from the last run w/ nitrous is cut off right at the launch. I left the laptop on in the car without saving the log while towing it off the track and it got messed up. So I have no log to see what the AFR was and such. Just great for diagnosing what went wrong!

Then we go to pack up and go home, (wife and kids came out to the track with me today), and the kids killed the battery in the durango (tow vehicle) watching DVD's! ARG. Go to pop hood and jumpstart the truck and find the hood is stuck shut! AAAARRRRRGGGG Wifey was sitting on the hood watching, must have jammed the latch. I end up saying "F-IT" and left the truck/trailer/racecar in the pits and went home in the wife's car. I'll go back to Island tomorrow and try to get it straightened out. Naturally, I left the timeslips in the durango.

Seriously, my luck is utter poop.

That ####ing sucks. Sorry Nate, JUST KEEP TRYING. You may wnat to see what the Nitrous system is flowing, as isn't it the same cylinder going out on you?

 

[Nate Crisman]

First time out in May 2011, when nitrous system went online, it broke the #2 cyl spark plug..munching the exh valves on cyl #2. All other cyl were fine. (built 2g head w/ SS valve)

Second time out in June, when n2o went online, it burned the exhaust valves on cyl #3. (stock 2g head).

Today, when n2o goes online, it breaks the #3 spark plug.

So the problems are concentrated on the middle cyls. Im going to have to investigate further.

 

[SBstar]

You can't catch a break with this nitrous stuff can you nate?!?! Either way still congrats on the awesome no nitrous run! So this was the specialty fuel stuff and this is/was a stock 6 bolt w/1g head correct? 264/272 hks cams and the smim still on the car?