The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

You can't catch a break with this nitrous stuff can you nate?!?! Either way still congrats on the awesome no nitrous run! So this was the specialty fuel stuff and this is/was a stock 6 bolt w/1g head correct? 264/272 hks cams and the smim still on the car?

Here's the current setup from today:

Fuel: PowerMist brand RL85E. It's a "race" E85 blend. Pure ethanol with 15% racegas. (pump E85 is blended with 15% crappy 84 octane gasoline)

Bottom: Manley 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, 2.0L 6bolt stock crank, ARPs, FF OFH, underdrive pulley.

Top: 2G head w/ basic porting. SS valves. GSC S2 cams. Evo3/RVR intake manifold. Stock cam gears and TB. Felpro permatorque mls hg.

Intake/exh: 14B turbo cartridge. Ported Evo3 7cm turbine housing. 2.5" SS o2 housing w/ Tial 44mm external. FP exhaust manifold. 3" downpipe. 4" to 3" cold air intake. Frozen Boost air/water intercooler, custom IC pipes, tial bov.

Ecu/fuel: DSMlink V3, AEM 5bar, GM ait. FIC 1650's w/ Easytune box. Bosch o44 pump, -6 fuel lines, 1gal fuel cell, aeromotive fpr. Boost control via dsmlink (just 100% everywhere).

Driveline: Stock auto awd trans and driveline, stock converter, welded center diff. Volk 15x7" CE28N wheels, MT ET DRag 24.5x8x15" tires. stock 90 brakes.

Nitrous kit started out as a sportsman fogger NOS kit that I modified by using -4 braided hose instead of hard bent line and Im using SS jets from nitroussupply.com. My problems are 100% sourcing from this n2o kit. I guess I really have to make a decision if I want to keep attempting this if I can't figure out something wrong with the nitrous kit. Maybe just put the E3 16g on when I rebuild it next time and leave the nitrous kit off all togther and just be happy with a mid/high 10 it should run with the 16g. Im getting really really tired of taking the head on/off every third run and the car seems to run great up until I decide to try spraying it.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Man that sucks Nate...

I've had a few conversations with some other dsmer's about this issue and they tell me that its normal for the 14b to drop off in the upper rpm's regardless of what wastegate you use. I don't know if this is 100% true or not so thats why I haven't dumped a few hundred bucks on an external to find out . They told me that because of the size of the 14b it just can't maintain boost pressure in the upper rpms but its still flowing the same amount of air if that makes sense.

You have to remember what boost pressure is. It's essentially airflow that hasn't gone through the motor that backs up in the manifold and a higher pressure. If you move more air (cams, displacement, rpm, etc) and the turbo is flowing all it can, boost MUST drop. There's no way around it. Take a standard 67mm sized turbo that makes 40+ psi on a 2 liter, but V8 guys have to run two of them just to try to get 20 psi. Even at 2000+ horsepower they'll see boost dropping off when the turbos are maxed out, but that doesn't stop them from making 2000+ hp. On a given engine airflow per time (i.e. lb/min) generally goes up with rpm, since the number of engine cycles is increasing faster than airflow/rev (i.e g/rev) is dropping off. This is why boost is high at low rpm and drops off as rpm climbs.

On my car with the small 16G's internal flapper welded shut and an external gate set to basically never open, I see a peak of 25 psi dropping to 16 psi by 7k rpm. Airflow is dead flat across the entire run however, as expected. I can only imagine what a 14b would drop to (some quick math says I can expect it to drop to about 12 psig). Normally moving the same air at less boost is a good thing, but in this case it comes with a huge spike in drive pressure (and a resultant sharp drop in power). As logged on my car, drive pressure matches boost pressure at about 13 psi (low boost pass I made), but at the 25 dropping to 16 psi, I see 30-40 psi back pressure in the mid range, and up to 53 psi back pressure at 7000 rpm. I tried taking it to 8500 on one run. Oddly enough it held the 16 psi from 7000-8500, but back pressure went up even further and the car stopped accelerating, I had to shift. If anyone is interested I can post a screen cap of the AEM log showing all of this at some point.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I'm guessing your not shimming your actuator at all right?

Not currently, but I may give it a try. If it will help, I will do it. I am very close to hitting 13's on my FWD with street tires. I want to get the most out of my 14b so I can get there. I am currently trying to figure out how to maximize my 14b, my launch, and my tune to make it happen. I clearly need more seat time and will work on that, but at the same time I know there are improvments that can be made in other areas as well.

You have to remember what boost pressure is. It's essentially airflow that hasn't gone through the motor that backs up in the manifold and a higher pressure. If you move more air (cams, displacement, rpm, etc) and the turbo is flowing all it can, boost MUST drop. There's no way around it. Take a standard 67mm sized turbo that makes 40+ psi on a 2 liter, but V8 guys have to run two of them just to try to get 20 psi. Even at 2000+ horsepower they'll see boost dropping off when the turbos are maxed out, but that doesn't stop them from making 2000+ hp. On a given engine airflow per time (i.e. lb/min) generally goes up with rpm, since the number of engine cycles is increasing faster than airflow/rev (i.e g/rev) is dropping off. This is why boost is high at low rpm and drops off as rpm climbs.

On my car with the small 16G's internal flapper welded shut and an external gate set to basically never open, I see a peak of 25 psi dropping to 16 psi by 7k rpm. Airflow is dead flat across the entire run however, as expected. I can only imagine what a 14b would drop to (some quick math says I can expect it to drop to about 12 psig). Normally moving the same air at less boost is a good thing, but in this case it comes with a huge spike in drive pressure (and a resultant sharp drop in power). As logged on my car, drive pressure matches boost pressure at about 13 psi (low boost pass I made), but at the 25 dropping to 16 psi, I see 30-40 psi back pressure in the mid range, and up to 53 psi back pressure at 7000 rpm. I tried taking it to 8500 on one run. Oddly enough it held the 16 psi from 7000-8500, but back pressure went up even further and the car stopped accelerating, I had to shift. If anyone is interested I can post a screen cap of the AEM log showing all of this at some point.

So is it then the cams that are a restriction since the boost is bottling up in the intake manifold? If that is the case would I be better off just running a lower boost pressure to begin with? I'm not sure which direction I need to take. Is it the 6cm hotside causing a restricton and the boost is dropping because it can't flow anymore? Is the wastegate actuater opening up and releasing boost into the exhaust causing my boost to drop? Or is the boost bottling up in the intake manifold in the lower rpms and then catching up in the higher, causing my boost to drop? Is there a way to tell? I can post a log from the track if that would help.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Any exhaust side restriction generally causes intake manifold pressure to go up with no corresponding increase in airflow. Try out a 7cm unclipped TD05H 20g to see this in action. The WG cracking open due to high exhaust manifold pressure is the most likely cause of boost dropping more than it should just based on airflow/consuption alone. Larger flappers like the old 34mm upgrade have been proven to make it worse, since force on the flapper is equal to pressure times area.

 

[SBstar]

I would agree with our RWD friend here. Even stock motor to stock motor I know things are different but when there are people such as myself holding boost to our shift points 6500-7000 rpms then it doesn't make a lot of sense why you can't hold it. The best first guess is the flapper opening slightly or not having a complete tight seal off the bat. I'd try one washer, turn the boost down and work it back up to your 20-21psi and see if it holds any better.

Thanks for the update on the setup Nate C. Once again showing that some of the big turbo mods actually do work on this lil turbo. GSC 2 cams aren't exactly mild by 14b standards and yet they appear to be working just fine once again. That fuel seems interesting and I wouldn't mind trying it, but I've been thinking about trying to find some E98 as well. The Evo 3 manifold / 2g head seemed to pair just fine as well, something alot of us mentioned as possibly worthwhile. Thanks for taking some speculation and showing that it does work.

This has convinced me, I'm going to pick up those cams before I slap this motor back together. Although I'd like to know the exact gain it shouldn't be too hard to measure even with the lower compression block, provided it ends up with good compression. I pulled the oil pan and front case off yesterday and everything looks good to go in there. Hopefully the last of my parts will be here by tuesday and I can get it together on wednesday and start working out the bugs.

1. Joe Bucci 10.876 @ 123.83
2. Nate Crisman 11.377 @ 116.63
3. Phil Beers 11.497 @ 113.85
4. David Womer 11.514 @ 118.13
5. Leon Reitman 11.642 @ 116.56
6. Nick Carleton 11.767 @ 115.93
7. Aaron Sadorf 11.76 @ 113.37
8. Lucas English [email protected] - I know he ran 11.7 and blew up his 14b this year
9. Rob Harfman 11.938 @ 119.41
10. Matt Morrison 12.004 @ 115.56


Top 5 AWD no nitrous guys still looks like this:
1. Nate Crisman 11.377 @ 116.63
2. Phil Beers 11.497 @ 113.85
3. David Womer 11.514 @ 118.13
4. Leon Reiman 11.642 @ 116.56
5. Nick Carleton 11.767 @ 115.93

 

[Nate Crisman]

Seeing the updated list is a double edge sword for me.

On one hand, that 11.37 was a decent pass and a significant improvement over the last time out. It's damn near exactly 5 tenths off the record, which is a bit more encouraging that it's not an impossible goal. Makes me want to fix the motor and give it another go without the nitrous kit and see if I could maybe push it down another couple tenths, maybe hit a 10.

On the other hand, seeing Bucci's 123.8mph just frustrates me to no end. Really, that's just crazy. Seeing the mph disadvantage to overcome, I just don't see how it's going to come together! Would I need a 1.3 60'? Do I still need to pick up 3.5mph also? I just don't see where I can pick up 30-40hp, drop a couple hundred pounds more, or increase the efficiency to make up nearly 7mph on the 14b.

While the #2 spot is nice, it's still not the goal. Im so conflicted. But I decided after sleeping on it, that Im not going to let this 3rd failure get me down yet.
I will fix the car
I will figure out WTF is wrong with that nitrous kit (or replace every damn part in it until it works right)
I will get the overall 14b record.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Man that sucks Nate...



You have to remember what boost pressure is. It's essentially airflow that hasn't gone through the motor that backs up in the manifold and a higher pressure. If you move more air (cams, displacement, rpm, etc) and the turbo is flowing all it can, boost MUST drop. There's no way around it. Take a standard 67mm sized turbo that makes 40+ psi on a 2 liter, but V8 guys have to run two of them just to try to get 20 psi. Even at 2000+ horsepower they'll see boost dropping off when the turbos are maxed out, but that doesn't stop them from making 2000+ hp. On a given engine airflow per time (i.e. lb/min) generally goes up with rpm, since the number of engine cycles is increasing faster than airflow/rev (i.e g/rev) is dropping off. This is why boost is high at low rpm and drops off as rpm climbs.

On my car with the small 16G's internal flapper welded shut and an external gate set to basically never open, I see a peak of 25 psi dropping to 16 psi by 7k rpm. Airflow is dead flat across the entire run however, as expected. I can only imagine what a 14b would drop to (some quick math says I can expect it to drop to about 12 psig). Normally moving the same air at less boost is a good thing, but in this case it comes with a huge spike in drive pressure (and a resultant sharp drop in power). As logged on my car, drive pressure matches boost pressure at about 13 psi (low boost pass I made), but at the 25 dropping to 16 psi, I see 30-40 psi back pressure in the mid range, and up to 53 psi back pressure at 7000 rpm. I tried taking it to 8500 on one run. Oddly enough it held the 16 psi from 7000-8500, but back pressure went up even further and the car stopped accelerating, I had to shift. If anyone is interested I can post a screen cap of the AEM log showing all of this at some point.

Thanks for the info. Makes a bit more sense now. What gets me is my old dsm with the stock 14b and full 3" tbe would boost creep to 20psi by redline. I only wish I had that problem now . Either way even with the boost falling off I can't feel any loss in power. I'm surprised you have the same boost issue with your small 16g. My old car with a small 16g and tial external held 25psi rock solid all the way to redline even with the web street grind cams although I'm sure your car is inhaling a sh!t ton more air than my old car so that would make sense for your boost to fall off

 

[Pirrofab]

congrats on the new record nate. Good luck getting first. I thought you and your brother tested everything on the nitrous system and found it to be ok. Any ideas on what else it can be? Could it be a fuel delivery issue causing knock for a split second and destroying the plug when the nitrous comes on? with your timing up high this time it doesn't sound like the same issue from before when timing was too low and the nitrous came on.

 

[JohnTSI]

First time out in May 2011, when nitrous system went online, it broke the #2 cyl spark plug..munching the exh valves on cyl #2. All other cyl were fine. (built 2g head w/ SS valve)

Second time out in June, when n2o went online, it burned the exhaust valves on cyl #3. (stock 2g head).

Today, when n2o goes online, it breaks the #3 spark plug.

So the problems are concentrated on the middle cyls. Im going to have to investigate further.

Broken porcelain, you don't get a more text book result of detonation than that. With the luck you are having with that kit I would throw on a single fogger wet shot and try it if you don't plan on spraying more than 75-100. Your pill sizing looks really fat like you said though, I would ditch that kit for peace of mind.

Your problem with the middle cylinders are they run the hottest since they are surrounded by other cylinder on both sides. Most of the engine failures I have seen on these cars are always one of those two cylinders.

 

[SBstar]

Seeing the updated list is a double edge sword for me.

I will fix the car
I will figure out WTF is wrong with that nitrous kit (or replace every damn part in it until it works right)
I will get the overall 14b record.

Do it! I'm glad to see it didn't hurt your resolve. I was thinking we were going to read another sob story moving back to the evo III 16g thing again. Glad to see you want to stick with the 14b!

 

[Phil1320]

Very nice man, you should be more excited! However, if I wrecked my motor every time I was at the strip, I'd have given up a long time ago.

I say: SCREW THE FN NOS

Its sucks, it ruins engine parts whether its now or later.

That's just my opinion though.

Either way, congrats and you've accomplished more in one year than any of us ever have.

Pat yourself on the back and give the NOS bottle to some clown in a 5.0 Mustang.



Nice job on grabbing that #2 spot from me

Maybe that will kick Phil in the butt to get that project going!

Not entirely....as a matter of fact, not at all.

It might actually convince me to stop drag racing for good and get the car converted to road racing sooner.

At least Nate proved that an AWD can run quicker than an 11.49

But, there's always a chance. Mod for mod, Nate's way ahead of where I was, so, I know there's more left if I decide to hit the strip again.

He's got me by just over 1 tenth to the 1/8, and the 1/4.....

.....I'm expecting a gain of near .40 out of my next set up, if it ever gets done.

If I do, I'd love to run Nate heads up. It's all talk on my part though, because I've literally done nothing.

So, again, congrats to Nate, he does DESERVE it after all the hard work an heartbreak this year.

 

[Pirrofab]

Nate,
Still a chance of you making it to Englishtown for mitsu vs subie day? Just leave the nitrous off. Id hate to see you winning and have the nitrous come on and see the motor let go .

 

[rhamlinii]

Seeing the updated list is a double edge sword for me.

On one hand, that 11.37 was a decent pass and a significant improvement over the last time out. It's damn near exactly 5 tenths off the record, which is a bit more encouraging that it's not an impossible goal. Makes me want to fix the motor and give it another go without the nitrous kit and see if I could maybe push it down another couple tenths, maybe hit a 10.

On the other hand, seeing Bucci's 123.8mph just frustrates me to no end. Really, that's just crazy. Seeing the mph disadvantage to overcome, I just don't see how it's going to come together! Would I need a 1.3 60'? Do I still need to pick up 3.5mph also? I just don't see where I can pick up 30-40hp, drop a couple hundred pounds more, or increase the efficiency to make up nearly 7mph on the 14b.

While the #2 spot is nice, it's still not the goal. Im so conflicted. But I decided after sleeping on it, that Im not going to let this 3rd failure get me down yet.
I will fix the car
I will figure out WTF is wrong with that nitrous kit (or replace every damn part in it until it works right)
I will get the overall 14b record.

Nate, why not use a single fogger on the car? I've sprayed as much 175 shot on a 16g thru single fogger nx kit. I was using a kit that was designed for a v8, but never had a problum with the motor. I started my build with that idea after seeing your grassroot car. I scraped my build, and put a simpler version of it together for a friend out of spare parts. Car shocked us, as it was fast on the street. It never blew up, and we street raced it hard. We even had a seperate fuel system for the spary. We won a lot of money on the street, as it looked stock but could beat 35r evos, civics and supercharged vipers. Later, I found the fuel system not to be hooked up properly if you check my post history. The car ending sitting for a while. Last year the motor was pulled and rebuilt again, and is currently used in my current s366 build. No 1/4 mile time, but I believe it ran 6.7 @ 108 in the 1/8 on street radials. We never ran a full pass, as we didn't want the car to post a number. I built and tuned the car. Whatever you decide, you'll find and fix your problem.

 

[RipperXX]

Nate, I understand that your using a dry kit... Thought about investing in a wet kit before you throw in the towel on N2o?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Im going to try and respond to everyone in one big post.

congrats on the new record nate. Good luck getting first. I thought you and your brother tested everything on the nitrous system and found it to be ok. Any ideas on what else it can be? Could it be a fuel delivery issue causing knock for a split second and destroying the plug when the nitrous comes on? with your timing up high this time it doesn't sound like the same issue from before when timing was too low and the nitrous came on.

Nelson is a good buddy who lives locally, unfortunatatly I don't have a brother. We fooled around with the nitrous kit while the head was off last time, and we did confirm that we had nitrous spraying out all 4 cyl in what looked fairly even pattern. We sprayed fuel at 40psi as well, but the volume/spray is so tiny and gets all over the intake manifold walls that it wasn't really possible to cofirm a flow rate or volume. All we could tell is that AT THAT TIME, we had fuel in each intake manifold runner.

YES, it is most certainly a fuel delivery issue for why cyl #3 went nuclear this last time while cyl 1,2,4 spark plugs look decent. I suspect on careful disassembly, I am going to find the fuel jet on the #3 nitrous fogger is plugged or restricted.

Last time it blew up by burning/melting the exhaust valves on cyl #2, it seems the root cause was too high of EGT due to ignition timing being too low from both knock sensor ign retard coupled with my tuning choice of pulling 6* of timing out on the "secondary ign map" that switches on with nitrous activation. Couple that with the main timing map being rather low anyway IMHO. That failure was due to running 3* of total timing in 3rd gear and 1* of timing in overdrive.

Broken porcelain, you don't get a more text book result of detonation than that. With the luck you are having with that kit I would throw on a single fogger wet shot and try it if you don't plan on spraying more than 75-100. Your pill sizing looks really fat like you said though, I would ditch that kit for peace of mind.

Your problem with the middle cylinders are they run the hottest since they are surrounded by other cylinder on both sides. Most of the engine failures I have seen on these cars are always one of those two cylinders.

Last year I ran a single wet fogger in the TB, but had an old style JMF intake manifold with those "trumpet horns" sticking into the plenum. And I was running that methanol/E85 mix for fuel. After I had a pretty severe HG/head failure due to crazy detonation last year that seemed like Cyl 4 was wicked lean, #3 was decent, 2&1 were rich.....I decided that a direct port would be a safer bet to insure even distribution. Unfortunately, the 4 port also opens up a bunch of new failure points with smaller fuel jets that plug easier as well as just more mechanical parts/complication.

I have used single fogger wet kits with success in plenty of dsm's before, and I do really think that my distribution problem last season was more due to the intake manifold design than anything else. I think I would be more confident using a single wet fogger on my current intake (Evo3 manifold) than a sheetmetal.


As far as detonation is concerned, my other 3 intact plugs are also showing a few tiny flecks of what look like aluminum. Do the knock sensor activity I'v been seeing could be real. But If that's the case, there seems to be very little tuning leeway in getting the timing right:
Timing too low, I burn up the exhaust valves due to EGT
Timing too high, I blow up the top end due to detonation.

I had figured that 11* up to 14* would be a good middle ground for timing, but I guess I erred to high and got the thing into detonation again. But still, Cyl #3 going completely nuclear while 1,2,4 are still in good shape (sharp ground strap edges, dark tan color) leads me to believe that I have a fuel delivery issue on cyl #3. plugged fuel jet most likely.

Do it! I'm glad to see it didn't hurt your resolve. I was thinking we were going to read another sob story moving back to the evo III 16g thing again. Glad to see you want to stick with the 14b!

I will be putting the E3 16g on eventually, but I just can't give up on the 14b until Iv reached at least one of the two records. Im pretty happy with the 11.37 @ 116. But not having made a single complete pass on nitrous yet really has me ticked off, especially since I have always had good luck spraying over the years. I can't give up on it not having made a single pass yet, especially when that record is realistically within reach with only having to simply "make one clean run".

16G might end up being 2012 though. If Im lucky, I might be able to repair the engine in time to run once or twice more in 2011.

Very nice man, you should be more excited! However, if I wrecked my motor every time I was at the strip, I'd have given up a long time ago.

I say: SCREW THE FN NOS

Its sucks, it ruins engine parts whether its now or later.

That's just my opinion though.

Either way, congrats and you've accomplished more in one year than any of us ever have.

Pat yourself on the back and give the NOS bottle to some clown in a 5.0 Mustang.



Nice job on grabbing that #2 spot from me






Not entirely....as a matter of fact, not at all.

It might actually convince me to stop drag racing for good and get the car converted to road racing sooner.

At least Nate proved that an AWD can run quicker than an 11.49

But, there's always a chance. Mod for mod, Nate's way ahead of where I was, so, I know there's more left if I decide to hit the strip again.

He's got me by just over 1 tenth to the 1/8, and the 1/4.....

.....I'm expecting a gain of near .40 out of my next set up, if it ever gets done.

If I do, I'd love to run Nate heads up. It's all talk on my part though, because I've literally done nothing.

So, again, congrats to Nate, he does DESERVE it after all the hard work an heartbreak this year.

Dude, you know me, nitrous flows through my veins. I can't give up on it, just can't. It's far to exciting, even if a little dangerous.

Thanks for the props! I still think 10.9 and maybe 119mph is possible with the 14b/awd driveline. IT's just soooo much effort for so little gain at this point and Im running out of low hanging fruit to work with. Getting the next few tenths and couple mph are going to be both expensive and time consuming if I decided to really go that route.

Nate,
Still a chance of you making it to Englishtown for mitsu vs subie day? Just leave the nitrous off. Id hate to see you winning and have the nitrous come on and see the motor let go .

I'm going to pull the head off today and see what the damage looks like. If it's just head/HG damage and the pistons are ok....it's possible I can scrounge another head and assemble the car for the Oct 15 race.

If anything, Id most likely just be there making T&T passes. I can't really win heads up races as I haven't been working on staging and cutting an RT. Most of my slips have 4-5 second reaction times from staging fully, then getting up on the converter which takes a few seconds. usually Im sitting there spooling up while the light turns green.

Nate, why not use a single fogger on the car? I've sprayed as much 175 shot on a 16g thru single fogger nx kit. I was using a kit that was designed for a v8, but never had a problum with the motor.

I still have all the single fogger parts from last years setup, I suppose if I end up having to stick a 1g head/intake on the car to get it together, I might just hook the single fogger back up and jet it for a small 50-75hp hit just for time/simplicity.

Will see what happens.

Nate, I understand that your using a dry kit... Thought about investing in a wet kit before you throw in the towel on N2o?

I'v never run nitrous dry on a DSM, all the nitrous talk regarding my car has been wet kits: both single fogger and 4 fogger setups.

I'm not throwing in the towel on n20, that's not even in discussion.

Just pulled the fuel jets out, confirmed without doubt....cyl #3 jet is plugged. taking a toothpick to the inlet/flare end of the jet, there are maybe 8 or 9 tiny "chunks" of what look like aluminum or steel. Imagine the flecks from a stripped threaded hole or something. Tiny little chunks.

Anyway, you can see daylight through the other 3 jets on cyl 1,2,4 but #3 was totally dark. Putting the jets in your mouth (yuck..E85 taste is NOT popcorn like it smells), I can blow a tiny bit of air through the 3 open jets and the plugged one has no flow.

Guess mystery solved other than WHERE those specs came from. Im going to check and see if maybe the little screen filter thats inside the aluminum 3/8npt to -6 male fitting that connects the -6 fuel hose to the fuel solenoid has any debris next.

 

[forcefed86]

What a bummer!

I'm with you man, nitrous is just as safe as boost or any other power adder if done properly. Do you run a filter pre-distribution block on the foggers? Do you run stainless jets with the alcohol fuels?

I think you were right as far as timing goes. You should be able to run 14* easily I'd be looking for other possible detonation causes. Were you running pump e85? meth? Have you had the current injectors flowed?

I know many people run mid 11-12AFR's and gotten away with it. I like to run mid to low 10's on my e85 cars. ESP with nitrous. What did the AFR jump to with the nitrous activated? IMHO I'd start out in the 10.3 AFR area and try a nitrous run. Theres not alot of power on the table to be lost by going a little rich. How are your air temps?

Good luck!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Plugged jet

What a bummer!

I'm with you man, nitrous is just as safe as boost or any other power adder if done properly. Do you run a filter pre-distribution block on the foggers? Do you run stainless jets with the alcohol fuels?

I think you were right as far as timing goes. You should be able to run 14* easily I'd be looking for other possible detonation causes. Were you running pump e85? meth? Have you had the current injectors flowed?

I know many people run mid 11-12AFR's and gotten away with it. I like to run mid to low 10's on my e85 cars. ESP with nitrous. What did the AFR jump to with the nitrous activated? IMHO I'd start out in the 10.3 AFR area and try a nitrous run.

Good luck!

The red anodized fitting that's between the fuel solenoid and the -6 fuel line has a stainless mesh screen which should have cought this stuff if it originated in the fuel pump/cell..ect. Im going to check that next.

SS jets from Nitrous Supply. AFR was in the mid 10's last time I ran the nitrous, but unfortunately this time I left the datalog running while we were towing/pushing the car off the track and through the pits and I fogot to save the log for like a half hour. The laptop went to sleep mode...soemthing got f'd and the log is corrupt. cut off

I guess, aside from repairing the engine mechanical damage, Im going to do a complete cleaning and inspection of the fuel system. New filters. Have the injectors cleaned and flow balanced at FIC. Take out the fuel cell foam and clean the cell out & flush. flush all the lines, rail, fpr. inspect all threaded fittings and such for pitting and stripped threads. I gotta find the source of these metal shavings. Oh, and buy a new set of fuel jets just to be safe. AND I think Im going to add a real filter at the inlet of the fuel solenoid.

 

[forcefed86]

Awesome you found the problem that quick! Did you double up the fuel jet side for alcohol? If the initial tune was in the 10.0 range and a pill was clogged the motor may have survived...maybe not with 100% clog, but something to think about.

IMHO those screens are crapola. I'd run an OE mitsu filter pre distribution block. I change mine out yearly and split the filters. They have all been in great shape. The glue holding in the paper element does get a little brittle.(e85) That is the only negative I noticed. Aircraft spruce sells a nice SS 10 micron AN6 filter as well, around $85.

I think these are the same filters jayracing sells?

Fuel Filters : Jay Racing

 

[pneumo]

Congratz on the time, Nate! Your car was hauling on that pass.
Sorry to hear about the engine troubles, I hope you get it back together and drop the time even more!

 

[Bohrn]

wow, its been a while since I did any 14b stuff. You guys are really taking it to the next level cubed!!

I will put in my 2 cents, because it was fun while I did it and I think I was the fastest 14b in BC, possibly in Canada on a full weight pump gas car.

Car was bone stock from valve cover to oil pan including cams and balance shafts etc.

pump gas, no nitrous, shitty shitty tires, stock open diffs, full weight minus the spare tire and jack. Real 14b too, no other wheels, housings etc. Home porting, big injectors and pump, full 3" exhaust, 2g maf and a Jeff O chip. Oh and a basic rebuilt tranny with a light flywheel and CFDF clutch. Small fmic(from a Saab Viggen) and one small(0.7mm) nozzle of water/methanol spraying bug wash.

12.90 at 104mph.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Congratz on the time, Nate! Your car was hauling on that pass.
Sorry to hear about the engine troubles, I hope you get it back together and drop the time even more!

Im going to try and get the cyl head off today (in the rain w/ car on trailer). If the damage is limited to cyl head/hg then it's possible for me to slap another head on and make a few more passes this year. If there is bottom end damage, Im afraid it's not going to happen till next season as my sep/oct is absolutely insane busy with work, family, and running events (Im a marathoner in training). Not to mention my house flooded in the last hurricane and all my spare cash has to go into buying building materials to repair the downstairs. No money for a motor rebuild when Im dumping a few grand at home depot for sheetrock, insulation, carpet, wood, ect.

Looks like the bottom end is ok, block deck surface is not seriously damaged. The head is torched through on cyl #3 into the water jacket. HG was cut completely through.

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More pics for anyone that's interested in diagnosis or whatnot: http://nathancrisman.smugmug.com/Cars/Racecar/4548411_jHpBRL

 

[hubz91talontsi]

You have some terrible luck Nate.. Glad to see you got that awd record.

What happened to running meth?

 

[Nate Crisman]

You have some terrible luck Nate.. Glad to see you got that awd record.

What happened to running meth?

What happened to Meth? mostly, when I put the car back together this spring, I found that methanol had eated up a few of my -6 fuel lines and fittings. I had fuel leaks EVERYWHERE, it was like playing "whack-a-mole" trying to fix them. At that point I decided to just go back to less corrosive E85 for a while until I got the setup/tune in the ballpark then re-visit the methanol fuel once I had some decent passes under my belt. Unfortunately, those decent passes haven't happened yet IMHO, so the meth fuel is on permanant hold.

Anyway, hopefully the next time out I'll have the issues figured out.

 

[SBstar]

Well I got a welcome surprise yesterday. Got my engine parts and a little something extra.

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My wife apparently decided to get me something for my birthday early (it's in October). She said after two broken driveshafts last year, and this year the best explanation we have for my leaky t-case being the driveshaft out of balance she wanted me to just do it right. Who am I to argue. Then she stated she planned this before I decided to blow my engine and have to rebuild it, oops

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Looks good Shane! You lucky dog.