The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Kevin Jewer]

I'm a few months behind schedule, but I have all of the parts to put a stock appearing turbo on the RWD. If I find the motivation I may make some passes on a14b or small 16g Friday. It's either going to go like hell, or lose all of the power the little turbo makes in the torque converter. I want to start with the 14b, but it's a really good turbo and I don't want to break it. For you guys with faster 14b cars, what is boost falling to at redline and what is it seeing for peak boost after a shift? I just want to pick a WG spring that makes sense and try to keep this thing intact.

 

[pneumo]

I'm a few months behind schedule, but I have all of the parts to put a stock appearing turbo on the RWD. If I find the motivation I may make some passes on a14b or small 16g Friday. It's either going to go like hell, or lose all of the power the little turbo makes in the torque converter. I want to start with the 14b, but it's a really good turbo and I don't want to break it. For you guys with faster 14b cars, what is boost falling to at redline and what is it seeing for peak boost after a shift? I just want to pick a WG spring that makes sense and try to keep this thing intact.

For durability, feed it oil from the filter housing. When I got the 14b record boost was hitting 25psi after a shift and falling to 13psi at the top of the gear. I'm currently using a 225 lb. wastegate 'spring' (it's more like a door stop)!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Thanks! I always feed from the housing, and lately with a full sized oil filter inline as well. 13 psi is lower than I expected... I have a WG block off flange for when I'm feeling frisky, but the last time I wired the WG shut on a standard 14b I shot the turbine wheel out the exhaust. My cams are probably too big for this little turbo too, but I can play with the gears to make that better.

 

[Phil1320]

Pretty awesome that this thread has gone over 2000 posts in well under 2 years total time. There are only a few threads in all of dsmtuners that have gone over 2000.....and I don't think they did it in such a short time. Even though there was some clutter.....I still think it's pretty cool. Nothing seems to have generated more interest than the turbo that started it off....the 14b.

I'm a few months behind schedule, but I have all of the parts to put a stock appearing turbo on the RWD. If I find the motivation I may make some passes on a14b or small 16g Friday. It's either going to go like hell, or lose all of the power the little turbo makes in the torque converter. I want to start with the 14b, but it's a really good turbo and I don't want to break it. For you guys with faster 14b cars, what is boost falling to at redline and what is it seeing for peak boost after a shift? I just want to pick a WG spring that makes sense and try to keep this thing intact.

I run a Tial external. To me playing with internal gates at this level is a waste of my time even though I really never had a problem holding boost. However, this was on 100% stock internals. We'll see if that changes once there are cams installed. I set at only 21 psi, but it's rock solid through my whole run. Once I'm in 4th gear the boost guage needle does not move. I will most likely try running a few more pounds in the future and expect it will hold as it does at 21 psi.

 

[Nate Crisman]

For you guys with faster 14b cars, what is boost falling to at redline and what is it seeing for peak boost after a shift? )

Im seeing 25psi at 4700rpm after the 2-3 shift and boost falls to about 18psi on average when I shift at 6000rpm. Boost is dropping fast, if I ran it to 7000rpm, I would guestimate I'd be well under 15psi at 7000. Average boost over the entire pass is 22.6psi.

That's through an automatic awd w/ stock converter and obviously no throttle lift and no bov activity during the run. Tial 44mm external on the o2 housing w/ about a 17psi spring.

Edit: This is with a stock 2G head, Evo3 intake manifold, Stock 2G camshafts, 8.5:1 compression, open 3" downpipe, air/water intercooler, and a ram-air intake pipe w/o filter. Iv been running the wastegate duty cycle at 100% via dsmlink, so this is the max boost the little turbo can make on my combo.

 

[SBstar]

Well I'm not sure I'm one of the faster guys, but perhaps pretty quick. My boost as far as I can tell (glancing over at the boost gauge), has also been holding steady at 21psi. I did have the wastegate line disconnected at one point and saw a peak of 26psi that settled down to about 20, but that only lasted for two pulls until I figured out what happened. After I crushed my bov I saw 25 psi that held up to 6k shifting. It seems that with stock cams and a healthy 14b on a stock motor setup the boost doesn't fall off as far. I do plan to throw a map sensor in eventually so I can know for certain what my boost is doing throughout an entire run.

 

[forcefed86]

One would think stock cams or custom low overlap grinds would be key in holding higher boost. As many have stated I don't think holding a higher boost will always net higher power. I'd think guys chasing this record would be building cammed out 12:1 + motors with big wastegates and just bringing the 14b along for the ride!

 

[Nate Crisman]

One would think stock cams or custom low overlap grinds would be key in holding higher boost. As many have stated I don't think holding a higher boost will always net higher power. I'd think guys chasing this record would be building cammed out 12:1 + motors with big wastegates and just bringing the 14b along for the ride!

The catch is that none of us "chasing" the record are actually building the setup/car specifically tailored to this record. Most of us are just slapping whatever parts we can afford/attain onto a car to the best of our ability and letting it rip. I know my specific combo is somewhat universal in that Im planning to slap on a E3 16g with no other changes, and possibly run a bigger turbo next year. I haven't made many choices for parts on "what's best for a 14b" at all.

 

[SBstar]

Well that was fun for a minute. I finally took the car out after shimming the wastegate and wiring in the new injector clips. Eyes hit the boost gauge showing 27psi, started to let off the gas and the friendly sound of a thousand marbles hitting pavement met my ears. I don't know if the car went lean, too much timing + too much boost, or a combination of both. One pull is all it took. I'm not positive what gave up first the piston or the rod but that was all she wrote. I had her tore down in about an hour. I'll pull the rest out later.

Obviously it won't be out for a while, I'll be sourcing a block and crank along with new internals. I think I already have a good block and crank located. Not sure what I'll do for pistons and rods yet. I'm going to check and see what the ones in the other cylinders look like but I'm doubting I'll re-use anything currently in there. The head looks alright but I'm going to double check everything of course. Part of me wants to upgrade from stock internals and the other remembers how expensive things get. We are very secure now but we'd rather build a substantial savings then a car. (speaking of the wife and I) She's been very supportive thus far. Probably will have to chase 11's next year.


Looks fine on the surface...

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Uh-oh

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Tear it down.

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That ain't pretty

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Neither is that.

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[91stocker]

Stroker time

But that sucks man, sorry to hear that.

 

[forcefed86]

The catch is that none of us "chasing" the record are actually building the setup/car specifically tailored to this record. Most of us are just slapping whatever parts we can afford/attain onto a car to the best of our ability and letting it rip. I know my specific combo is somewhat universal in that Im planning to slap on a E3 16g with no other changes, and possibly run a bigger turbo next year. I haven't made many choices for parts on "what's best for a 14b" at all.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone. I totally understand. But the same would go for all the smallish turbo classes. There are many NA FWD cars out there around the same weight that are quite a bit faster than the DSM 14b and even 16g AWD records.

Just seems odd noone has really pushed the 4g platform NA and tossed a 14b or 16g on for the ride. I suppose it's because there are no a huge payouts and sponsorship is nonexistant. But how much additional time and money would be required to get the initial compression up if your building an engine anyway?

 

[Pirrofab]

Shane,
Sorry to hear about the bad time. Just dont give up. Come back next year with a built motor or even a budget set up and continue to chip away at the e/t. That was the original 6 bolt? Upgrade to 2g or evo pistons bored .20 .It would still be somewhat pricey depending on what you locate but a little cheaper then a full set of rods and pistons and the usual machine work.
A friend of mine that has been in the engine building game for years always tells me that if a 4 cylinder comes apart (or any motor for the matter) that the cylinders closest to the harmonic balancer usually fail from bad tuning and poor desicions. The further cylinders fail from improper machining, clearences, and harmonics. Wether this theory actually holds some truth I have no idea but High boost high timing and a possible lean condition and repeated abuse could be of some truth to the theory.

On another note If your interested I will give you my address and I would be very willing to buy one of the old but still good piston and connecting rod. I only need one as I'd like to make a custom tow hook for the car. Ofcourse I'd pay for shipping.

95gsxracer,
A small turbo on a rwd drag dsm. I'm very interested in your outcome on this. I have an old chevy vega sitting on a trailer collecting rust and dust and have a small dream to drop a 4g into it with a spare turbo to just have some fun. I want a rwd turbo car but dont want to lose the dsm power plant

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Oh no Shane! I'm so sorry to hear that!

 

[SBstar]

Definitely the tuning issue. She can't / couldn't hold that kind of pressure. Im going to take my time deciding what to do. A buddy offered a full shortblock to me to toss in but im not sure what kind of shape its in. It might be pointless to do that with old worn rings and what not. But if I rebuild I probably want to do a better build which would mean taking alot more time due to the budget. I might just do the budget 1g rod and 2g pistons again.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Has anyone ever witnessed that type of failure on a 1g piston? I have seen it on a local 2g and couldn't tell if it was initially a rod bolt failure or piston failure. It looks like your rod was still attached to the crank.

Sorry to hear the news man...

 

[SBstar]

It was an ITM 2g piston. Not the highest quality stuff in the world. They apparently hold up well if everything is perfect in the tune, something like what I experienced is way too much for them. I'd almost bet even an OEM 2g piston would have survived.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

That sucks Shane. I'd just throw a good compression stock block back in it and keep on trucking. They're cheap, and lots of people still set records on crappy old motors with low compression. The problem with trying to do too much with too little turbo is the temptation to push the tune too far. Not saying that's what happened here, but I've been down that road before.

95gsxracer,
A small turbo on a rwd drag dsm. I'm very interested in your outcome on this. I have an old chevy vega sitting on a trailer collecting rust and dust and have a small dream to drop a 4g into it with a spare turbo to just have some fun. I want a rwd turbo car but dont want to lose the dsm power plant

Do it! RWD DSMs are fun, trust me. My 4g63 TH350 Mightmax is a friggin blast too. I'm curious to see what happens as well. It'll either haul ass or be a big embarassment. I really should be doing this test on the Mightymax, but I'll run the same turbos on it anyway and be able to compare the two.

 

[SBstar]

Probably already had the timing pushed a lil too far then I accidently overboosted. So yeah, pushing a lil too hard. If that block checks out I might just run it. We'll see. I'll keep everyone updated.

 

[forcefed86]

Has anyone ever witnessed that type of failure on a 1g piston? I have seen it on a local 2g and couldn't tell if it was initially a rod bolt failure or piston failure. It looks like your rod was still attached to the crank.

Sorry to hear the news man...

I believe I had a similar failure.I bought the car with the rebuild already done. Was just re ringed 6bolt motor with new bearings. The old owner removed the oil squirters for some reason. Higher oil pressure possibly? I was told this was a big no no on cast pistons and high boost. Shane, did you possibly plug off the oil squirters? My failure may have been due to the rings butting as well. Not sure what they were set at. My rod was still attached as yours was. Same Cyl.E30 fuel 18* timing 11.5 AFRs 35psi on a E316g.

Sorry for the luck I've been there...

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Here's a good tow pin for ya...

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[SBstar]

Yep, looks familiar haha. Mine did have the oil squirters still though. The more I think about things the more I might just run that oem 6 bolt block if it checks out. The two fastest guys so far were on 7.8:1 motors right? Not counting anything on the go-go juice of course. But, none of that matters until I check it out anyways.

 

[1SloEvo]

Is there a reason why there aren't any 2G Eclipses dropping in a 14b and trying out their luck? Considering it's a very simple job to swap, just wondering why there aren't any 2G guys trying it.

 

[1990AWD]

I'm guessing it's because to get even close to the 14b record most of the cars are basically a tin can on wheels. 2gs are that much heavier and would take that much extra work to go just as fast.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I put a used 14b and a couple basic mods on my 2g and ran mid 12s ten years ago, but as mentioned above, they're a little heavy. I went right to a 16g since the 14b was maxed out. Of course this was on a pocketlogger and an AFC since DSMlink didn't exist yet. We got one for my GF's 2g but ended up putting on a small 16g instead (low 12s), then a 5H 20g that didn't flow much more (12.0), then an old FP Green (11.4). It's lighter than my car was but still almost 3300 lbs with me in it IIRC. I wish we tried the 14b. Wouldn't have come close to the record, but it would have been fun to try it and compare it to my old car.

 

[1SloEvo]

I just checked Edmunds for the specs and that doesn't seem to be the case. I checked the difference in curb weight between a 94 and 95.

1994 GSX - 3093 lb
1994 GS-t - 2778 lb
1995 GSX - 3120 lb
1995 GS-t - 2877 lb

100lb for GS-t and less the 50lb for the GSX. Maybe their curb weights are way off.

3300lb is horrible. My Evo was 3090 without me and I barely removed anything. With me it was around 3280lb with all fluids and half tank of gas with big intercooler and big turbo setup.

 

[Bo0sTdTsI]

Well I'm waiting on my motorr from the machine shop and can't wait til I hit the strip and dyno.
Mods:
Wiseco 9:1 .020 over
Eagle H beams with ARP's
Clevite mains and rods
Stock crank
Port & polished head/valve job
K&N air filter
Evo III exhaust mani & 02 housing
Ported 14b
Hallman MBC
3" turboback exhaust
Mitsu MLS
Apexi SAFC
DSMlink
Stock side mount
Only gonna run it between 7-14psi to break in the motor and upgrade after I run it.