The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

Says the guy that plastered every inch of a beautiful car with stickers

Sorry had to..

seen my avatar pic?<<<<<<<<<

thanks....kinda...

Don't know who you are, but, yes, I've been into stickers for years. It started out when I was a huge supporter of Extreme Motorsports. I ran their sticker on my back window for years, and multiple different ones across my hood. The joke was that the stickers were a "mod" on my car as it was running times that were unheard of with such little modification.

Stickers are a way to change the overal appearance of my car temporarily for not a huge amount of $ while being able to change back at any time.

Just keep in mind vinyl comes off the car easier than it goes on......drilling holes in my front bumper cover and anywhere else ain't gonna be easy to reverse....and for the 2/100ths of a second I gain in ET from it at this point I see it as a waste of my time. Sure, trap speed may come up a bit.....but I don't care so much about trap speed, I'm all about ET for the most part. As I said, my current cover is cut up pretty good, so if I get some time, maybe I'll toy with it....

 

[91stocker]

The joke was that the stickers were a "mod" on my car as it was running times that were unheard of with such little modification.

So thats how you do it. I need more stickers haha.

I wasnt sure which pics were more recent. I hear ya on the bumper though. I heard its good for a couple mph. The stm piece isnt too bad looking, but i dont think i would chop up a car as clean as yours either.

I think all that goes along with weight reduction and all the other stuff thats a waste of time imo. Titanium axles and lug nuts blah blah. Tell them 10 second 6000+lb diesels they need to loose some weight . Theres a local jeep cj with no top that runs a 6.2 1/8. That thing looks like a flying brick. Aero hasnt effected him too much.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

We don't need titanium driveshafts we have aluminum. Price would roughly be 800 a pair or 1600 for all 4 axles btw. If anyone cares =p

 

[Steve93Talon]

As I said, my current cover is cut up pretty good, so if I get some time, maybe I'll toy with it....

Want a red '90 Laser shell? You can do a conversion

 

[91stocker]

We don't need titanium driveshafts we have aluminum. Price would roughly be 800 a pair or 1600 for all 4 axles btw. If anyone cares =p

Sorry meant axles. Yea aluminum or cf driveshafts are plenty im sure.

 

[vinnybean]

Anyone using one of those t3 exhaust housings on the 14b? I think the A/R was quite a bit bigger would that help at all up top?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

From what I've seen and been told it won't matter. I myself will be running a greddy 8cm^2 mitsu housing however.

 

[Nate Crisman]

From what I've seen and been told it won't matter. I myself will be running a greddy 8cm^2 mitsu housing however.

In turbo alone, I don't believe the turbine housing is a significant power restriction since you are completely out of compressor flow on even the most basic engine setup. On a nitrous car it's a completely different story and the limiting factor is certainly on the exhaust side.

 

[SBstar]

Exactly, although I think the 7cm housing helps, I doubt going bigger is going to help further. But no one has proved other then butt dyno that going to the 7cm housing actually does help!

I'm all for lightweight parts, as I know they make a difference, spending that much however is way out of my realm of possibilities.

Aero mods are interesting, but how much of an effect does it truly have on cars trapping at or below 120 mph? Is it truly that significant? Even to a couple hundreths? I'm not so sure and it would be interesting to see, I know people have picked up 1-2 mph but I'm not sure how much effect on ET it has or if it's worth the effort. But, on an all out drag car only project, might as well for it.

Phil's car has a ton of potential, I laugh at the thought that he can't go faster then he already has, he's making less power then anyone near him! There are alot of ponies to free up and I think the car will at least go a few tenths quicker this coming year, if not get into the 10's. Not to make bold predictions for you Phil, I just truly think that you've got some more power coming this year and it'll make a significant difference, provided you keep driving like you do and hitting those 60 fts like that!

Wifey has agreed that suspension can be purchased with a small part of the tax return, trying to decided between the Megan's or the Ksports now, any other ideas for me? Again remember I'm budget coilover minded haha.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Have you looked at kyb agx's? Plenty stiff with good springs

 

[SBstar]

Have you looked at kyb agx's? Plenty stiff with good springs

I've had agx's and imho opinion they're garbage. Worst ride of all time, literally zero adjustment, and they blow out rather quickly with the slightest drop. Fortunately I can afford something a little better this time around. But I'll agree for straight drag racing they seem to work efficiently, but there are much better options.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Megan and ksport aren't the better options. Way to soft. You'll see if you go that route. Waste of money

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I've had agx's and imho opinion they're garbage. Worst ride of all time, literally zero adjustment, and they blow out rather quickly with the slightest drop. Fortunately I can afford something a little better this time around. But I'll agree for straight drag racing they seem to work efficiently, but there are much better options.

I agree. I'm currently on AGX's and Eibach's and it is very rough on the street. I'd lke to find a better option too but you just don't see that many options for the 1gs.

Also an update, I replaced the compressor housing o-ring today. I've got the turbo back on but still have to reinstall the radiator, intercooler pipe, and hook up the downpipe. I'll finish it tomorrow because I need to pick up a new downpipe gasket. I hope this fixes my leak!

 

[SBstar]

How bad was that old seal? Mine actually fell apart as I pried it out as it was so old and brittle. Good to hear you're getting those things fixed, it'll make a big difference out there!

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

How bad was that old seal? Mine actually fell apart as I pried it out as it was so old and brittle. Good to hear you're getting those things fixed, it'll make a big difference out there!

It was hard as a rock and it broke in half when I was pulling it off.

 

[pneumo]

A buddy of mine once said,'my AGX's ride so rough it's like they make up their own bumps!"

Here's your cheap suspension solution. I've been using ebay coilover sleeves with 300# springs up front and 375# springs in back. Those rates work nicely with Koni's. If anyone uses GR2, go with 300# springs all around and it'll handle the bumps. FYI stock springs rates are 140# in back, 146# up front.

 

[SBstar]

The Ksports can be ordered with custom spring rates, I've been attempting to research what would be best. I do like the Koni option but they don't sell the rears anymore. I still am firmly of the belief either the megan or ksport coilovers are a better option the kyb anythings.

 

[Phil1320]

So thats how you do it. I need more stickers haha.

I wasnt sure which pics were more recent. I hear ya on the bumper though. I heard its good for a couple mph. The stm piece isnt too bad looking, but i dont think i would chop up a car as clean as yours either.

I think all that goes along with weight reduction and all the other stuff thats a waste of time imo. Titanium axles and lug nuts blah blah. Tell them 10 second 6000+lb diesels they need to loose some weight . Theres a local jeep cj with no top that runs a 6.2 1/8. That thing looks like a flying brick. Aero hasnt effected him too much.

No sweat.....really a couple MPH? That's pretty good, but how much ET is it worth? Haven't seen the STM piece? I'll check it out.

Word....on your second paragraph......I'm just not ready to go there.

We don't need titanium driveshafts we have aluminum. Price would roughly be 800 a pair or 1600 for all 4 axles btw. If anyone cares =p

Not a bad price I guess......but get me the weight reduction over stock and then we'll see if they are worth it dollar for dollar. Not the approximate, get me exact weight loss for the front and rear axles......with the power I make I'm not going to be shattering axles any time soon so it's all about the weight reduction.

want a red '90 laser shell? You can do a conversion

yes.

I agree. I'm currently on AGX's and Eibach's and it is very rough on the street. I'd lke to find a better option too but you just don't see that many options for the 1gs.

Also an update, I replaced the compressor housing o-ring today. I've got the turbo back on but still have to reinstall the radiator, intercooler pipe, and hook up the downpipe. I'll finish it tomorrow because I need to pick up a new downpipe gasket. I hope this fixes my leak!

Really? Damn, I ran Eibach/AGX for years and I liked it alot.

Nice work, hope it solves your boost issues!

I've had agx's and imho opinion they're garbage. Worst ride of all time, literally zero adjustment, and they blow out rather quickly with the slightest drop. Fortunately I can afford something a little better this time around. But I'll agree for straight drag racing they seem to work efficiently, but there are much better options.

Again, really? I've never heard anything negative about AGX's until now....we all used to run them around here. I think it's a great shock, it's no Koni yellow...but noone needs those for the street anyway....

Megan and ksport aren't the better options. Way to soft. You'll see if you go that route. Waste of money

??? Wow.......I guess everyone has a different idea on certain products. The K-Sport GT Pro's are a bad-ass set of coilovers. I ran them on my Forester XT with a 5 inch drop and they were great. I pounded em pretty good at a couple track days and they performed very well. They were nicely made as well. Early K-Sport stuff I heard had leaking issues, but I have nothing but good stuff to say about them.

A buddy of mine once said,'my AGX's ride so rough it's like they make up their own bumps!"

And to think we all had no issues here on New England's roads.....I guess some people are more tempermental than others......

The Ksports can be ordered with custom spring rates, I've been attempting to research what would be best. I do like the Koni option but they don't sell the rears anymore. I still am firmly of the belief either the megan or ksport coilovers are a better option the kyb anythings.

I'd go with coilovers.......full adjustment, anytime.....lighter than stock style strut housings......it's money better spent IMHO.

From what I've seen and been told it won't matter. I myself will be running a greddy 8cm^2 mitsu housing however.

Just rounding out your list of the highest dollar 14b build ever?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

The supra runs them =) Im just going to steal one and run it. 3 bolt flanges no wastegate.

 

[SBstar]

The no wastegate option would be nice, seems like you'd have better flow straight to the wheel to make er spin that way, insteading of a strange shape that makes air flow around it. I'm not sure what the real world difference is but it makes sense in my head you'll have better flow with a hotside without wastegate "chamber". People into physics can describe that one haha.

 

[Nate Crisman]

One thing to keep in mind is that KYB and Koni shocks are steel body and K-sport, D2, and Megan coilovers are for the most part all billet aluminum body. There is a significant weight difference! (I kinda assumed that people talking about saving weight with TI axles and AL rods would mention that upfront!)

When I switched from steel body bilstein shocks with normal size lowering springs to coilovers on my GVR4: (quoted from my post on GalantVR4.org)

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Set of D2 coilovers I picked up. They are used, but seem to be in great shape. Cleaned up nicely.
Weights: Fronts are 12.25lb each, the rears are 8.25lb each
Replaced standard type shocks that came in at 18.75lb & 13.5lb each respectivly.
Total weight loss from coilovers: 23.5lb

Granted, the weight loss is not all attributable to the aluminum body construction. Obviously the smaller spring size makes for some of the weight loss and one can get that same loss by using simple "threaded sleeve" coilover conversions such as Ground Control or any of the cheap generics sold on Ebay. I haven't honestly measured an oem size spring vs one of the coilover spring&sleeves to see what the weight loss is broken down.

Oh..and about "softness".....the D2's I had on my GVR4 were INSANE stiff compared to AGX shocks. It was like a gokart on bumps and road transitions, borderline unbearable to drive everyday. But that was pretty ideal for a dragstrip car on bias ply slicks as it had the least amount of weight transfer off the front.


On the topic of Aero mod for a 1/4mile dragstrip application: I seem to remember reading a thread on NABR where many of the smart guys at AMS and Kiggly were all on point that it makes so little effect on ET to be worth the effort when the vast majority of your acceleration happens at the beginning of the track. Remember aero drag works at a exponential to speed. The point I remember from that thread was the comparing the worst case DSM vs best case Aero only amounted to something like .025 of ET that that "best case" was practically impossible to achieve. As Phil said...MPH doesn't count (this isn't "Supra racing for MPH")

Point being is that if your concerned about ET, then your effort is better spent trying to pick up 1 hp here and there than you are about trying to lower drag by .05 Cd because that only a couple horsepower will make more of an ET difference than all of the aero mods combined. Dropping weight is also far more important than reducing drag on the effort/cost vs gain scale.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I don't know how long ago you read that, but im sure it was quite awhile back. A factory 1g talon has roughly a CD of .30 and a rolling resistance of around .09. 60% of total CD is air running into the front of the car. Sorry phil im not trying to knock on your car its just a good example. Aerodynamically phil's car produces more drag than factory. Although it is ligher and doesn't need as much horsepower to maintain a highway speed as a 3000lb car.. If the total CD was taken down to 45% he would notice an increase his trap. Phil's car also has more rolling resistance because of slicks however. Doing 50-100mph pulls would really tell the story. Obviously a stop watch isn't going to do the trick.

Good info on the coilovers nate.
I still like my agx's though =D. I have a very agressive rake.. Something like you'd see in a fwd.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I don't know how long ago you read that, but im sure it was quite awhile back. A factory 1g talon has roughly a CD of .30 and a rolling resistance of around .09. 60% of total CD is air running into the front of the car. Sorry phil im not trying to knock on your car its just a good example. Aerodynamically phil's car produces more drag than factory. Although it is ligher and doesn't need as much horsepower to maintain a highway speed as a 3000lb car.. If the total CD was taken down to 45% he would notice an increase his trap. Phil's car also has more rolling resistance because of slicks however. Doing 50-100mph pulls would really tell the story. Obviously a stop watch isn't going to do the trick.

Good info on the coilovers nate.

Im not arguing that decreasing Cd doesn't improve a 1G or that cutting up the front makes Cd slightly worse. What Im saying is that going from factory Cd of .30 to "hacked up" Cd of .33 or conversely doing all the aero modifications you could possibly do to a 1G to end up with a Cd of .20;

Means jack crap for Elapsed Time at the Dragstrip. Going from .33 to .20 might make the car .050 quicker and you might spend many days and thousands of dollars to attain that .050 of ET. That's the gain I'd expect from picking up 5hp.

As Kiggly says

In my car, a 0.1Cd decrease should be worth about 0.06sec and 3mph. There are a hell of a lot more low-hanging fruit than focusing efforts on reducing Cd for drag racing.

Remember, he's going like 168mph up top and is at 134 at half track. His average speed for the run is WAY higher than our piddly 14b cars that are barely cracking 100 at half track and 120 up top. Areo mods will be even less effective on a 14b car.

IMHO Aero work is just the absolute last thing to spend effort and money to improve. It's not like we are all running at even 90% efficiency in any department: traction, weight, or power. Why bother spending any effort to make up any improvement due to Aero when that same money and effort will make an exponentially higher return in quicker ET by trying to pick up a little more in the engine/suspension/weight.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Well, obviously aero drag is increased with speed. However.. i don't think you have to make it expensive. You can go to homedepot and buy a piece of sheetmetal for like $10. Get some tin cutters and make yourself a rough undertray. In a game of tenths and hundredths i feel that it is worth the time. The more power you add to your car doesn't matter any more efficient through the air. All factors come in to play at some point. Obviously joe thought it was worth the time and effort.

 

[91stocker]

No sweat.....really a couple MPH? That's pretty good, but how much ET is it worth? Haven't seen the STM piece? I'll check it out.

Heres that stm piece. People have claimed anything .1 - .4 in et, with most saying around .2. But there doesnt seem to be any solid proof on any of it.

The supra runs them =) Im just going to steal one and run it. 3 bolt flanges no wastegate.

Well you seem to be pretty hardcore with weight reduction. Have you put any thought into the butcher crank from ffwd? They claim 7lbs lighter.