The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[hubz91talontsi]

Im going to be running a factory knifedged crank.

 

[pneumo]

Good info on coilovers.
I replaced Eibach springs on my DD Laser with a set of aluminum ebay coilover sleeves and my own choice of springs. It saved 18 pounds, including cutting off the lower spring seat on the front strut, which also opens up more clearance for big tires. I think that's a nice dollar/weight ratio.

I've used GR2, AGX, and Koni on my DSM's. In my experience the GR2's are perfect for a daily driver/commuter when paired with stock springs, eibach prokit springs or similar mildly stiff springs.

AGX shocks depend on the spring rate too much. They're best matched with stock or mild upgrade springs. They don't ride nice when paired with stiff coilovers. They're a cheap solution for stiffening a track car.

Koni's have nice damping that works with any spring rate, stock or extreme. They have a nice ride with good control.

Speaking of the dollar/weight ratio, I'd much rather have a triple disc 5" clutch than titanium axles.

Here's some more actual experience.
I put a partial undertray on my Laser. I did it to save gas, since I had a long commute and gas was over $4.50 around here a couple years ago. A 2x3' piece of sheetmetal weighs 5 pounds, and that's not a big piece. Our cars are 170" long and 66" wide, or 14'x 5.5'. That's a lot of weight for almost no aero gain.
There's an easier way to drastically reduce underbody aero drag: just add a front air dam. Mile High Talon
Less air flowing under the car equals less drag on the parts under the car.
Another option is to rake the car so the nose is slightly lower than the rear. That's all. No need to re-invent the wheel.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, obviously aero drag is increased with speed. However.. i don't think you have to make it expensive. You can go to homedepot and buy a piece of sheetmetal for like $10. Get some tin cutters and make yourself a rough undertray. In a game of tenths and hundredths i feel that it is worth the time. The more power you add to your car doesn't matter any more efficient through the air. All factors come in to play at some point. Obviously joe thought it was worth the time and effort.

My point is that $10 at home depot, the gas to get there, and the time to cut, shape, and install that front bumper dam is arguably better spend making a better cold air duct, cutting weight, or building power. That is $10 you did t spend on dyno time, better engine parts, or weight loss. Unless your on the unlimited budget (it seems so), that $10 is better spent elsewhere.

I know my situation is just about about time/effort restriction than money restriction. I barely have enough time to build the car and maintain it, in example that there were a few times last year when I wanted to get XXX mods done before the next track day and I ended up going to the track without all the things accomplished as I wanted. Not due to a lack of money, but due to not having the time/effort to install the part or make the adjustment. An hour or two spend on fabricating a front bumper air dam is an hour or two that didn't go into work on weight or power or setup.

Power, Weight, Traction matter way way more than Aero. When Im confident I'm making 100% potential power, the car does wheelstands to a 1.25 60', and weighs 2300lb...THEN I'll spend some time trying to reduce drag from .30Cd to .28Cd with a bumper dam, undertray, ect.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

that $10 is better spent elsewhere

I disagree.

I will agree with this

Power, Weight, Traction matter way way more than Aero. When Im confident I'm making 100% potential power, the car does wheelstands to a 1.25 60', and weighs 2300lb...THEN I'll spend some time trying to reduce drag from .30Cd to .28Cd with a bumper dam, undertray, ect.

However if you only have $10 dollars in your pocket.. Aero mod's are a good way to increase your MPG's( for those guys still driving your car on the street) and maybe getting a few hundredths or a tenth at the track.

 

[pneumo]

I disagree.

You build the car the way you want, it's your car.
I built my car the way I want, and you can see the results.
We'll all be here waiting for your results.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

You build the car the way you want, it's your car.
I built my car the way I want, and you can see the results.
We'll all be here waiting for your results.

Roger that.

 

[Phil1320]

The supra runs them =) Im just going to steal one and run it. 3 bolt flanges no wastegate.

Ahhh.....Greedy on a Supra...that's rare.

One thing to keep in mind is that KYB and Koni shocks are steel body and K-sport, D2, and Megan coilovers are for the most part all billet aluminum body. There is a significant weight difference! (I kinda assumed that people talking about saving weight with TI axles and AL rods would mention that upfront!)

As Phil said...MPH doesn't count (this isn't "Supra racing for MPH")

"I'd go with coilovers.......full adjustment, anytime.....lighter than stock style strut housings......it's money better spent IMHO."

Definitely helps in the weight dept, and of course for tire clearance and such.

Yeah.... Just ask some of my old acquaintances with 550+ RWHP Supras what happens at street night. I'd run 12.0@112 and they'd run 12.20's @ 127......sure they'd walk away from me no problem on the highway ride home.....wow, that's tough to do...mash an accelerator pedal.....but when we were all at Hooter's after comparing timeslips who got the best end of that deal? Ok enough of the 7M GTE 2JZ whatever crap.

Exactly, although I think the 7cm housing helps, I doubt going bigger is going to help further. But no one has proved other then butt dyno that going to the 7cm housing actually does help!

I'm all for lightweight parts, as I know they make a difference, spending that much however is way out of my realm of possibilities.

Aero mods are interesting, but how much of an effect does it truly have on cars trapping at or below 120 mph? Is it truly that significant? Even to a couple hundreths? I'm not so sure and it would be interesting to see, I know people have picked up 1-2 mph but I'm not sure how much effect on ET it has or if it's worth the effort. But, on an all out drag car only project, might as well for it.

Phil's car has a ton of potential, I laugh at the thought that he can't go faster then he already has, he's making less power then anyone near him! There are alot of ponies to free up and I think the car will at least go a few tenths quicker this coming year, if not get into the 10's. Not to make bold predictions for you Phil, I just truly think that you've got some more power coming this year and it'll make a significant difference, provided you keep driving like you do and hitting those 60 fts like that!

Wifey has agreed that suspension can be purchased with a small part of the tax return, trying to decided between the Megan's or the Ksports now, any other ideas for me? Again remember I'm budget coilover minded haha.

I think I've mentioned this before, but if I were to gather all the lightweight stuff left out there....I could spend upwards of $8,000 with ease. Just writing that and looking at it is silly to me. Would I like some of those parts, well, sure. But, the benefit has to be comensurate with the cost, and in this case, I don't think it levels off like that. MY own opinion here. I'm not discounting these parts or that they would provide gains of any sort. Just merely looking at it my way.

Thanks Shane....you would think there might be a little bit left there huh? Without a doubt, as I've stated somewhere recently, the power number was never my main focus, just a safe running engine, and most importantly....getting everything I can out of what I've got. I think I've done that with great success. I definitely don't plan to drive any worse!!!! However I do expect to be running low-mid 1.30's to the 60' mark. I do expect to break the 7.0 mark in the 1/8. If I can do that....it's hang along for the boring 4th gear ride in the 2nd 1/8 and where the 1/4 ET lies..it lies. If I can break the 7.0 mark in the 1/8 the 1/4 should be pretty impressive.....10 seconds worth of impressive....not too sure, but, it should be close.

Nice, man, I love when the wifeys give in and we can get some goodies! Honestly, I think either the Megan or the Ksports will impress you and do what you expect out of them....that's great!

In turbo alone, I don't believe the turbine housing is a significant power restriction since you are completely out of compressor flow on even the most basic engine setup. On a nitrous car it's a completely different story and the limiting factor is certainly on the exhaust side.

But, you agree that the 7cm is probably gonna do more for me that just keeping the 6 right? I have zero experience with the 7cm so....and everyone really thought that was an easy bolt on gainer for me....just curious...

I don't know how long ago you read that, but im sure it was quite awhile back. A factory 1g talon has roughly a CD of .30 and a rolling resistance of around .09. 60% of total CD is air running into the front of the car. Sorry phil im not trying to knock on your car its just a good example. Aerodynamically phil's car produces more drag than factory. Although it is ligher and doesn't need as much horsepower to maintain a highway speed as a 3000lb car.. If the total CD was taken down to 45% he would notice an increase his trap. Phil's car also has more rolling resistance because of slicks however. Doing 50-100mph pulls would really tell the story. Obviously a stop watch isn't going to do the trick.

Good info on the coilovers nate.
I still like my agx's though =D. I have a very agressive rake.. Something like you'd see in a fwd.

Factory 1GA Talon with full wrap spoiler is .29 Cd. The slipperiest DSM. DSM's that have no rear spoiler or effects add quite a bit of drag out to around .34.

I'm not taking any offense to this at all. If you think I'm not aware that my car has a higher drag coefficient than stock, then you really underestimate me. However, it is lower now, and the front end is tipped a bit, even with the slicks on. I've trapped as high as 116.8 on the slicks but with 15-20 psi in them. Sure maybe if I put my drag radials back on I could hit 118, but the ET would suck. I was running 12.0's@115+ on my drag radials with 1.8-2.0 60's because I couldn't catch traction. On the first run ever on the slicks I went 11.75@115 with a 1.57 60'. So, I lost no trap speed, and chopped a 1/4 second off in ET WITH NO OTHER CHANGES WHATSOEVER. NONE.

When I ran 11.49 I had about 12-14 psi in the slicks. Still room there. Basically, slicks are a must with my set up. I gaurantee my car is stiffer than anyone elses up here for sure and I can do that b/c I don't drive it on the street. With the JIC's and 2265 lb. curb weight, I would imagine my effective spring rates are off in the 600-700 lb. range.

Again, don't care about trap speed, don't care about 50-100mph roll ons--this is for all the non traction havin RWD cars....

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Again, don't care about trap speed, don't care about 50-100mph roll ons--this is for all the non traction havin RWD cars

..aerodynamic improvements are for rwd cars? Gotcha.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Phil youre car can't go much faster because its a aerodynamic disaster.

..aerodynamic improvements are for rwd cars? Gotcha.

Megan and ksport aren't the better options. Way to soft. You'll see if you go that route. Waste of money

. A factory 1g talon has roughly a CD of .30 and a rolling resistance of around .09. 60% of total CD is air running into the front of the car. If the total CD was taken down to 45% he would notice an increase his trap. Doing 50-100mph pulls would really tell the story. Obviously a stop watch isn't going to do the trick.

I think you are completely missing the point. This is the 14b DRAG RACING thread. Not the MPG thread, not the 50-100 thread, not MPH racing thread. We are trying to drill it into you that Aero modifications don't significantly affect the ET at a 1/4 mile track, but you keep beating around the bush and cluttering the thread with posts that don't contribute anything to the 14B Dragracing conversation. What Phil is trying to say is that WE DONT CARE WHAT MPH THE CAR RUNS. Aero mods are going to improve MPH but be very very ineffective at improving ET.

You can run a 1G AWD that's a 11.200 car trapping say 120mph with completely stock body at .30 Cd for example. Do all the aero modifications possible and make it perfect to a .20Cd (I don't even think that's possible anyway). What's it going to run: 11.175 @ 122. Go back to the stock car and add a big ricer supra style wing, canards, and a Shogun bumper: the Cd just went up to .40. What does the car run at the dragstrip: 11.225 @ 119.0

Adjusting the boost pressure half a psi, adding 1* of timing, running an hour later after the sun sets, or getting a slightly better launch by being on the line immediatly after they prep with VHT will likely make more of a difference to the ET than all of the aero modifications and improvements that could possibly be done.

I don't believe that doing all of these mods even makes .1Cd difference

• adding a bumper dam
• removing the wipers
• removing the side mirrors
• fitting wheels exactly flush
• venting the rear bumper
• covering the side vents
• building a complete underbelly pan
• removing the exhaust system

You can do that entire list to your car and see maybe see a hill of beans for ET difference compared the money and effort spent. When you actually show us a car that either smokes us in HP, ET, Launch, or Weight...then come talk about Aero modifications. But this far, we have seen ziltch for real info, only a bunch of unfulfilled hype and contradiction. Pic of "your brothers car" with an aluminum rod motor but on a sidemount intercooler didn't improve your credibility much either.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Aero mods are going to improve MPH but be very very ineffective at improving ET.

No shit.. But you can't just ignore aero. You're just making up numbers. Do a test similiar to what I said and the result may shock you.

That car made over 370awhp on the stock sidemount smart guy.

 

[Phil1320]

..aerodynamic improvements are for rwd cars? Gotcha.

roll on races are.......

 

[hubz91talontsi]

No fwd love phil? Lol. Who said anything about roll races?

 

[Nate Crisman]

No shit.. But you can't just ignore aero. You're just making up numbers. Do a test similiar to what I said and the result may shock you.

That car made over 370awhp on the stock sidemount smart guy.

Sure I can, I'll continue to completely ignore Aero until it becomes more effective for ET than searching out another 4hp or reducing another 10lb, which as far as any knowledgeable and proven person has said, is nowhere near the point any of us are at.

I know I can make at least 50hp more. I can drop 200-300lb. I can pick up .2 on the launch. Why would I even bother to exert any effort or money on Aero modifications with so much other low hanging fruit? It would be like worrying about aero drag of your mirrors when your still running a stock intercooler.

 

[Phil1320]

No fwd love phil? Lol. Who said anything about roll races?

Of course....I come from FWD cars...

I think you are completely missing the point. This is the 14b DRAG RACING thread. Not the MPG thread, not the 50-100 thread, not MPH racing thread. We are trying to drill it into you that Aero modifications don't significantly affect the ET at a 1/4 mile track, but you keep beating around the bush and cluttering the thread with posts that don't contribute anything to the 14B Dragracing conversation. What Phil is trying to say is that WE DONT CARE WHAT MPH THE CAR RUNS. Aero mods are going to improve MPH but be very very ineffective at improving ET.

You can run a 1G AWD that's a 11.200 car trapping say 120mph with completely stock body at .30 Cd for example. Do all the aero modifications possible and make it perfect to a .20Cd (I don't even think that's possible anyway). What's it going to run: 11.175 @ 122. Go back to the stock car and add a big ricer supra style wing, canards, and a Shogun bumper: the Cd just went up to .40. What does the car run at the dragstrip: 11.225 @ 119.0

Adjusting the boost pressure half a psi, adding 1* of timing, running an hour later after the sun sets, or getting a slightly better launch by being on the line immediatly after they prep with VHT will likely make more of a difference to the ET than all of the aero modifications and improvements that could possibly be done.

I don't believe that doing all of these mods even makes .1Cd difference

• adding a bumper dam
• removing the wipers
• removing the side mirrors
• fitting wheels exactly flush
• venting the rear bumper
• covering the side vents
• building a complete underbelly pan
• removing the exhaust system

You can do that entire list to your car and see maybe see a hill of beans for ET difference compared the money and effort spent. When you actually show us a car that either smokes us in HP, ET, Launch, or Weight...then come talk about Aero modifications. But this far, we have seen ziltch for real info, only a bunch of unfulfilled hype and contradiction. Pic of "your brothers car" with an aluminum rod motor but on a sidemount intercooler didn't improve your credibility much either.

Wow..I couldn't have said it any better myself......

No shit.. But you can't just ignore aero. You're just making up numbers. Do a test similiar to what I said and the result may shock you.

That car made over 370awhp on the stock sidemount smart guy.

And has no 1/4 mile timeslip to go with it. It's a dyno queen just like most Supras. The classic my **** is bigger than yours. 370 AWHP and I'll still smoke him down the track. You hold the dyno sheet, I'll hold the timeslip!

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Hah I love how everything is about supra's now. I also have a soft spot for dyno queens

 

[TSimage]

Why are you even here?

I speak for everyone. Please just go away and start your own thread. When you start doing some 14b drag racing then come back..

 

[hubz91talontsi]

No thanks

 

[TSimage]

Its obvious you enjoy being a troll. From your post I never figured you to have the intelligence to do anything else but continue on in your current path. At this point you could run a 10 and I don't think any of us would care any more. Why you feel the need to argue against EVERYTHING I have no idea. People who have succeed and gone where you are bench racing and trying to go makes no sense.

Its the mark of a stupid person, one who can never take advice, has never accomplished anything yet still has the audacity to have the strongest possible opinion on everything. As the saying goes, it is better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.

A lot of what guys like Phil and Dave have been trying to put into your head is stuff they have dealt with and gone through. Even if you have ideas of your own, act like you have some sense and pick their brains to help your own cause. The way to be faster than them is to know what they know and make it/do it better, thats it.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

At this point you could run a 10 and I don't think any of us would care any more

Perfect because I never cared if anyone would support me. Like I said I know exactly what I'm doing. What is it that Phil and Dave did? Gutted a car and ran the wheels off of it. We are talking about 2 stock engines. Weight and 60ft times. That's what a 14b is about. So, who again didn't know that? Thanks for your input

 

[TSimage]

Perfect because I never cared if anyone would support me. Like I said I know exactly what I'm doing. What is it that Phil and Dave did? Gutted a car and ran the wheels off of it. We are talking about 2 stock engines. Weight and 60ft times. That's why a 14b is about. So, who again didn't know that? Thanks for your input

Again, this shows your ignorance and stupidity...

Dave's car wasn't and isn't gutted in the way you assume nor was his motor stock. Again, it only proves, you don't know wtf you are talking about. And every post you make makes it worse and worse. And when you ask what did they do? They did something that out of the Thousands upon thousands of 4G63 14b cars ever built, only 1 other person has done. If you really think its that simple, you go right ahead with your aluminum rod titanium axle bucket and torque steer that mofo into a K rail.

Don't be stupid(er)...

The thread is for discussing 14b Drag racing, not 14b Bench racing. Luda will be making a stop in tis thread if you feel you have the deserving right to clutter it with BS. This thread ahs the potential to be a sticky one day and a good means of info for anyone daring enough to push our stock turbos, lat thing they need to do is get to your post and give up on reading pages and pages of your douchebaggery and jackassery as if having another asshat cluttering our Tech threads like SpawnedX in the Hangout.

 

[91stocker]

They seem to be ok to me. Nothing wrong with a good back and forth discussion. He brought up areo and both sides are defending their opinion. Seems ok to me, rather interesting.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Love it.

 

[91stocker]

Im going to be running a factory knifedged crank.

Have you thought about the butcher crank? It seems like a nice combo with the aluminum rods your running. Just curious to why you choose factory knifed.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I have 3-4 factory cranks so I'd rather just go that route. I believe it will be lighter than the butcher.

 

[91stocker]

I have 3-4 factory cranks so I'd rather just go that route. I believe it will be lighter than the butcher.

Well that would be a good reason haha.