The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

This is a turbo in a certain platform. DSM forum, DSM discussion. But I wouldn't discredit anything 4g63 powered, which would include a swapped colt from the discussion. However, a 3S isn't anything close the 4g63 we're working with and therefore doesn't fit in the discussion.

 

[Steve93Talon]

So lets just same i ran a 14b in a colt.. Does that not count then? Are we talking about a turbo or a turbo in a specific car? I believe we should let 3000gt's run in the competition. That doesn't mean im running a 3s .

My belief is that the spirit of the 14b record is a "stock turbo" record, meaning any car that the turbo came from the factory with. No nitrous. The exceptions are typically 2Gs, which came with a T25, and 1G autos, which came with a 13g. Once you start counting Colts, twin turbo V6s, and nitrous, where do you draw the line? I could build a 14b powered motorcycle, a quad-14b LS1, or a compound setup with a 14b and a 35r and most likely kill the standing record, but it would completely go against what all of us are chasing - 14b on a 4G6x in a Talon/Eclipse/Laser/GVR4.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

If thats the case why isnt anyone running a mighty max.. It is clearly a good platform. Its factory full weight is 2580. You all realize how lame the rules are getting? Its to the point that lets just say i rotate the engine and run a rwd i would be discredited.

Like ive been saying phil. Im in a different category. Not saying im doing any of these things, but my custom parts will draw question to me even being apart of the real "14b" list.

 

[TSimage]

Doesn't sound ridiculous at all.. It's a "Stock turbo" list... If that is not the "stock turbo" on the vehicle you have then it doesn't go on the list.

Its quite simple...

If you want to see the "stock turbo" record for a SRT-4 you don't want some guy in there with a swapped 1st gen that weighs 800lbs less or a swapped 80's caravan, Its a way to make it a true STOCK TURBO list. On a side note, if you are trying to be a part of a basic 14b list then there is nothing to stop you from using a 1970 SuperBird muscle car with a 14b on it how ever if its a "DSM" list then there you go...

 

[hubz91talontsi]

So all it takes is a dsm?

 

[TSimage]

So all it takes is a dsm?

Not necessarily just a DSM, just a car that came with a 14b stock... Galant VR4s and the T/E/Ls

 

[hubz91talontsi]

What about the stock position of the turbo? I'm running a forward facing set up

 

[Phil1320]

DOH! How did I forget English took that car out on the 14b . But wow I might not have had as bad a list as I thought. As far as we can see there have only been 10 dsms in the 11's w/out nitrous, and obviously only one got into the 10's so far.

As far as Mike Knott he claims to have done it with a 1990 Plymouth Laser-FWD. - I know Aaron Sadorf is another laser guy, teal one right? Then Harfman is also a fwd laser guy. Alot of early lasers on the 14b list, must be the lightweight platform

So the top 5 14b AWD guys looks something like this.

1. Phil Beers 11.497 @ 113.85
2. David Womer 11.514 @ 118.13
3. Leon Reiman 11.642 @ 116.56
4. Nick Carleton 11.767 @ 115.93
5. Lucas English [email protected]

That's a pretty tough nut to crack just to hit the top 5 AWD times considering 11.64 stood for so long! Does anyone know who Nick Carleton was/is? Never remember seeing that time anywhere but on the DSMTimes list.

Ok, cool, so Mike Knott is legit then...where is he, up in this thread?

Pretty sure Rob Harfman is the "Teal Tin Can," as his car was dubbed.

'90-'91 Lasers are most definitely the lightest of all 1G turbo cars....I had two of them and wish I still had them.......

Leon's 11.64 stood for quite a while, but Bucci's 10.84 is hanging alot longer, and noone is even close to touching it, not even in the ballpark as a matter of fact. I happen to be closest at this point, but, it really isn't saying much. On paper, some of us are, but, that's it. As we've said before, I'm a full .65 off Joe's time, and within the little 14b world.....that's alot of time to make up. I would think as my car sat before dissassembly, if I tossed an E316g on there, I might have been able to match Joe's 10.84. So, with that, it's going to take ALOT to come anywhere near there for anyone with any 14b set up. To get to where I am now, back in '09, it was like climbing a flight of stairs to the 3rd story. To get to that elusive 10 second arena is going to be like climbing the stairs to the top floor of the Empire State building. As I've also said, it ain't gonna be no walk in the park.

For the "RECORDS" to be comparable in any way, the platforms need to be limited. Like the others said, limited to what vehicles they came in from the factory. T/E/L and GVR4. Point blank, that's it. The list on dsmtimes.org is the "14B" list, however vague, it includes cars like the 3000 VR4. So, on that list anything goes as long as it's a 14b I guess....if you take a 14b and wrap a VW Beetle around it, I guess it counts.

My understanding, and I think I speak for most here, but, I won't, is that the 14B overall list that we are in tune with here is the "stock 14B turbo list."

Once the Colts, Mirages, etc. come into play, the list gets sloppy fast. Even within the T/E/L and VR4 there are tons of different variables that come into play......weight etc. Once you add a Colt for instance, that car can be lightened to a point that a FWD DSM can't be, so there is an advantage that the cars that came with the 14b in the first place don't have. Another example is my car is lighter than all the rest out there, but, IF the others wanted to, they have the ability to make their car just as light. So, I technically don't have an unfair advantage because what I've done is not out of reach for anyone else with the same car. If I was running a Colt, no matter what anyone did to their DSM short of a full carbon body, they couldn't make it as light. Granted, it doesn't have the aero of the DSM, but nonetheless in the 14b Drag Race Battle I think weight "outweighs" the gain of aero in our under 120 MPH traps....

The last thing I'll mention, and maybe it's why Dave feels I hold the record now(as in the AWD).....is that even when comparing a FWD DSM and an AWD DSM......the AWD could never be made as light as the ultimate in lightweight FWD cars. Keep in mind again, that even with a cage in Joe B.'s car, his race weight is 270 lbs. lighter than mine was without a cage. When you are looking for every last tenth and you have a FWD car that can hit 1.5 60's.....pair that launch, with 270 lb weight advantage, and less driveline loss down the track....this is a losing effort with an AWD car if you look at it like that. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try to eat my own words here. I've said elsewhere I think I can take down Joe B.s 1/8 mile time....I truly believe that....but, I'm not convinced that I can beat that 10.84 1/4 time. However, unrelated, but speaking about Nate, I think the 14b NOS record of 10.61 can go down........

 

[hubz91talontsi]

If a 4g64 is fair game why can't we run a vehicle that came with it? I know it doesn't have a 14b but a lot of reading between the lines..

 

[Phil1320]

If a 4g64 is fair game why can't we run a vehicle that came with it? I know it doesn't have a 14b but a lot of reading between the lines..

You can do whatever you like honestly....

But, to be comparative here it's pretty basic and cut and dry...

TALON, ECLIPSE, LASER, GALANT VR-4

2.0 LITERS DISPLACEMENT 4G63

I think the VR4 should almost have it's own record as I don't think it's possible to get one as light as a T/E/L, but, I may not be correct there. It has more sheetmetal for sure and with the extra doors and glass.....well, anyway.....


more thoughts people?

 

[ArcticTsi]

You can do whatever you like honestly....

But, to be comparative here it's pretty basic and cut and dry...

TALON, ECLIPSE, LASER, GALANT VR-4

2.0 LITERS DISPLACEMENT 4G63

I think the VR4 should almost have it's own record as I don't think it's possible to get one as light as a T/E/L, but, I may not be correct there. It has more sheetmetal for sure and with the extra doors and glass.....well, anyway.....


more thoughts people?

I completely agree. Plus have thought that way whenever I viewed what guys were achieving with their 14b. The VR-4 guys most def. are in their own group in my opinion. The structural reinforcing in the car for a 4-door and all that glass is unfair to compete with what we can "gut" from ours. I further more divide the T/E/Ls into AWD & FWD for that matter. So I break it down to who is the quickest/fastest 14b FWD DSM, quickest/fastest 14b AWD DSM, quickest/fastest 14b VR4. That should be the benchmark. But nothing wrong with having a 14b "Outlaw/Unlimited" anything goes class. It is always great to see peoples creativity and ingenuity.

Just my take.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Just put me in that unlimited class you speak of. =P I already know what im doing isnt going to fly with you hardcore 14b weenies.

 

[TSimage]

The VR4s aren't much heavier than DSMs stock for stock and that is with 4 doors, AWS, Full rear seating and a bunch more crap. I don't doubt that if someone wanted to, they could make a VR4 every bit as light as a DSM. Fiberglass/CF doors, roving of the AWS, rear seats and door skins, even glass if you wanna really get crazy.. The VR4 seems as though it could be lighter.

Now the issue is is most VR4 guys are more purist for preserving the car since its relatively rare. Few of them care about performance on the level of a DSMer. There's no need to separate the GVR4s and thats from a guy with a GVR4. They aren't nearly as handicapped as the people who own them make them seem. Its simply a different type of crowd.

 

[SBstar]

. So I break it down to who is the quickest/fastest 14b FWD DSM, quickest/fastest 14b AWD DSM, quickest/fastest 14b VR4. That should be the benchmark.
Just my take.

I completely agree! Only other classes I like to add is with nitrous and without since it can cause such a dramatic change. But when we talk 14b, we're talking T/E/L's in our general category, The GVR-4 fits in but is normally added in a class of it's own. From there as you've said you could add the Unlimited 14b class 4g6? powered, and ever crazier you could make a 14b turbo on anything class if you wanted! But again we're grasping at straws trying to make a record for everything. It came on the T/E/L, that's the record we care about.

 

[Nate Crisman]

The last thing I'll mention, and maybe it's why Dave feels I hold the record now(as in the AWD).....is that even when comparing a FWD DSM and an AWD DSM......the AWD could never be made as light as the ultimate in lightweight FWD cars. Keep in mind again, that even with a cage in Joe B.'s car, his race weight is 270 lbs. lighter than mine was without a cage. When you are looking for every last tenth and you have a FWD car that can hit 1.5 60's.....pair that launch, with 270 lb weight advantage, and less driveline loss down the track....this is a losing effort with an AWD car if you look at it like that. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try to eat my own words here. I've said elsewhere I think I can take down Joe B.s 1/8 mile time....I truly believe that....but, I'm not convinced that I can beat that 10.84 1/4 time. However, unrelated, but speaking about Nate, I think the 14b NOS record of 10.61 can go down........

Phil....Im also trying to make you eat your words by hopefully by doing this with the heaviest combo of AWD Automatic...hahaha. As I'v said in previous posts, the absolute weight difference between FWD and AWD should be just over 200lb. The rest of the Project Goodwill weight advantage is simply that Joe went more "hardcore" on gutting than the rest of us have thus far. There is still a significant 60' advantage to AWD that IMHO should be roughly equal to that 200lb.

I'm pretty confident in knocking down Bucci's 10.61 w/nitrous record without much trouble. The way I understand 14b/16g engine tuning is that the ultimate limiting factor is exhaust backpressure due to the turbine wheel/housing. What I'm getting at is that the ultimate power output one can make is the SAME on a 14b or a 16g when you have nitrous on the car. My plan is to get my setup running excelent on the E3-16g (hopefully knocking off Bucci again with a 9.94 or so) and then bolt on the 14b with no changes other than ECU tune and nitrous jetting. In theory, I should be able to bump the nitrous jetting by the same amount of oxygen that the 14b lacks compared to the 16g and make the exact same amount of power. (given timing adjustment). IE...* I "should" be able to run just as fast on 14b/nitrous as I do on 16g/nitrous.

So...If I can run a 9 on the 16g, going 10.6 on the same exhaust parts should be a walk in the park assuming I can just up the spray to make up for the smaller compressor.

The last time out, I went 6.71 @ 106 at half track on a motor that was most likely only running on 3 cyl, which equates to something in the 10.45-10.35 in ET. And that was on a weak-sauce 1.58!

• Healthy motor.
• -150lb. (gutted interior & wiring) (-27lb lighter wheel/tire)(no intercooler)
• Better launch.
• More spray.
• Jump to 100% methanol.

Im going into 2011 pretty confident that this off-season will be the last one we are gunning for a red FWD laser from Florda. It's frankly getting a little old that we are constantly comparing our 2010, 2011 current setups to a a car from 2004. It's pretty sad showing on our parts that we can't crack this nut!

 

[Phil1320]

I completely agree. Plus have thought that way whenever I viewed what guys were achieving with their 14b. The VR-4 guys most def. are in their own group in my opinion. The structural reinforcing in the car for a 4-door and all that glass is unfair to compete with what we can "gut" from ours. I further more divide the T/E/Ls into AWD & FWD for that matter. So I break it down to who is the quickest/fastest 14b FWD DSM, quickest/fastest 14b AWD DSM, quickest/fastest 14b VR4. That should be the benchmark. But nothing wrong with having a 14b "Outlaw/Unlimited" anything goes class. It is always great to see peoples creativity and ingenuity.

Just my take.

I like it.

Just put me in that unlimited class you speak of. =P I already know what im doing isnt going to fly with you hardcore 14b weenies.

You are the weenie until you come out and show us something....so you're a "talking weenie" with nothing to show for it except a set of polished aluminum rods on a table.

At least us "hardcore 14b weenies" have something to show for it....

The VR4s aren't much heavier than DSMs stock for stock and that is with 4 doors, AWS, Full rear seating and a bunch more crap. I don't doubt that if someone wanted to, they could make a VR4 every bit as light as a DSM. Fiberglass/CF doors, roving of the AWS, rear seats and door skins, even glass if you wanna really get crazy.. The VR4 seems as though it could be lighter.

Now the issue is is most VR4 guys are more purist for preserving the car since its relatively rare. Few of them care about performance on the level of a DSMer. There's no need to separate the GVR4s and thats from a guy with a GVR4. They aren't nearly as handicapped as the people who own them make them seem. Its simply a different type of crowd.

About 140 lbs. to be exact. Hell, you may be right. About making them lighter than a DSM...that might be tough....but it could be possible. Alot of the same crap is in either car.....passive restraint system, etc. And most all of that can be removed. But, then you have the extra sheetmetal of the doors, plus the extra hinges for the rear doors.....but sure, if you wanna go spend thousands on carbon everything I'd imagine it's possible.

I completely agree! Only other classes I like to add is with nitrous and without since it can cause such a dramatic change. But when we talk 14b, we're talking T/E/L's in our general category, The GVR-4 fits in but is normally added in a class of it's own. From there as you've said you could add the Unlimited 14b class 4g6? powered, and ever crazier you could make a 14b turbo on anything class if you wanted! But again we're grasping at straws trying to make a record for everything. It came on the T/E/L, that's the record we care about.

Yeah, the NOS should be a separate entity all by itself. We aren't neccessarily trying to make a record for everything, just trying to level the playing field. As in, we all started with the same thing, whatever route you choose to go is up to you and where you end up is where you end up. Wether it's a full drag car, or a car that someone still drives on the street, the choice is there to do anything....if you don't want to gut the car, well, then I guess you shouldn't expect to be as quick as someone who does if power is on the same level. The guys that want to keep their cars streetable will need to maximize power potential if they expect to keep up with the fully lightened cars where power might not need to be maxed to have an advantage.

14b unlimited is a cool idea.

-any platform
-any engine
-whatever....

Phil....Im also trying to make you eat your words by hopefully by doing this with the heaviest combo of AWD Automatic...hahaha. As I'v said in previous posts, the absolute weight difference between FWD and AWD should be just over 200lb. The rest of the Project Goodwill weight advantage is simply that Joe went more "hardcore" on gutting than the rest of us have thus far. There is still a significant 60' advantage to AWD that IMHO should be roughly equal to that 200lb.

I'm pretty confident in knocking down Bucci's 10.61 w/nitrous record without much trouble. The way I understand 14b/16g engine tuning is that the ultimate limiting factor is exhaust backpressure due to the turbine wheel/housing. What I'm getting at is that the ultimate power output one can make is the SAME on a 14b or a 16g when you have nitrous on the car. My plan is to get my setup running excelent on the E3-16g (hopefully knocking off Bucci again with a 9.94 or so) and then bolt on the 14b with no changes other than ECU tune and nitrous jetting. In theory, I should be able to bump the nitrous jetting by the same amount of oxygen that the 14b lacks compared to the 16g and make the exact same amount of power. (given timing adjustment). IE...* I "should" be able to run just as fast on 14b/nitrous as I do on 16g/nitrous.

So...If I can run a 9 on the 16g, going 10.6 on the same exhaust parts should be a walk in the park assuming I can just up the spray to make up for the smaller compressor.

The last time out, I went 6.71 @ 106 at half track on a motor that was most likely only running on 3 cyl, which equates to something in the 10.45-10.35 in ET. And that was on a weak-sauce 1.58!

• Healthy motor.
• -150lb. (gutted interior & wiring) (-27lb lighter wheel/tire)(no intercooler)
• Better launch.
• More spray.
• Jump to 100% methanol.

Im going into 2011 pretty confident that this off-season will be the last one we are gunning for a red FWD laser from Florda. It's frankly getting a little old that we are constantly comparing our 2010, 2011 current setups to a a car from 2004. It's pretty sad showing on our parts that we can't crack this nut!

Well that's awesome man and I hope you succeed! And, yes, I'm sick of comparing to that damn red Laser as well. In years past though, there really was no comparison because all us 14b guys were running street cars for the most part. I took mine off street duty only 2 years back so that's where I start comparing my effort to Bucci's....now mine is dedicated race, just like his was, I just have alot of ground to make up.......

 

[hubz91talontsi]

You are the weenie until you come out and show us something....so you're a "talking weenie" with nothing to show for it except a set of polished aluminum rods on a table.

Youre silly.

 

[94TSiAWD]

Hey guys! Good to read up on this topic. Glad people are still doing this.

A couple notes...

Mike Knott was my partner with Goodwill in the beginning. His 11.8 time was in that car before I took it over myself.

Aaron Sadorfs Laser was black. He had a teal AWD one years ago, but his 14b time was in the black FWD.

I know a lot of people contribute my success to being maybe the first 14b "race car", but I like to look at it as just a race car. When I switched from the 14b to the 16g and went 9s, there wasn't a lot of FWD DSMs that had gone 9s at all, never mind on a 16g. That's something I'm proud of.

As far as the 14b record goes. If it's a stock turbo 14b record, it should really be in a DSM/vr4. the 14b wasn't "stock" on any other car.

I know one of you guys will break my record sooner or later. I have a great deal of respect for those who are trying. It's very difficult to find E.T. with a 14b set-up. It can be frustrating and sometimes thankless. There was soo much more I could have done to my car, so I know my numbers can be bested. Keep working on it.

 

[pneumo]

Thanks for chiming in, Joe. Your input is always welcome. I've looked at your car for mod ideas that make a difference, and finding the mods that don't matter as much. You did a great job at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Hubz,
Don't get us wrong, if you go with a different platform and run a awesome time we'll still appreciate the results. We might not consider it a record, but we still like awesomeness. Awesomeness is awesome! Just be aware that there are plenty of build threads that don't produce results, and they tend to start out like you did. It may take longer to do a build from the ground up, so stick with it and keep your goals in mind. Sometimes it's better to get the car running first with core mods, then add peripheral mods later since a running car is a blast to drive and it is extremely motivating to run a half-decent time when you know you will go even faster with the next line of mods.

My car is almost the opposite, I tend to switch setups almost yearly. Last June I had a GT35 running 597AWHP and ran 10.11@143. 3 months later I had a 16g on the car and ran 11.2. Don't get me wrong, I have a solid build, it's not slapped together, I just have a knack for sticking to the important aspects of the build while doing quick work with the things that don't matter as much. My current 'wastegate' mount is a good example. Another example is the aero mods I did to the car last month when we were talking about aero stuff. Basically I used duct tape and blocked off the side bumper ducts on driver and passenger side. I taped off the backside of the duct, then painted it black so you can't see it. It's not a huge mod, but it's worth it for the price and time I spent on it.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Dave I'm running my talon but... Well, you'll see..

 

[Phil1320]

Youre silly.

Yes, yes I am.....

Hey guys! Good to read up on this topic. Glad people are still doing this.

A couple notes...

Mike Knott was my partner with Goodwill in the beginning. His 11.8 time was in that car before I took it over myself.

Aaron Sadorfs Laser was black. He had a teal AWD one years ago, but his 14b time was in the black FWD.

I know a lot of people contribute my success to being maybe the first 14b "race car", but I like to look at it as just a race car. When I switched from the 14b to the 16g and went 9s, there wasn't a lot of FWD DSMs that had gone 9s at all, never mind on a 16g. That's something I'm proud of.

As far as the 14b record goes. If it's a stock turbo 14b record, it should really be in a DSM/vr4. the 14b wasn't "stock" on any other car.

I know one of you guys will break my record sooner or later. I have a great deal of respect for those who are trying. It's very difficult to find E.T. with a 14b set-up. It can be frustrating and sometimes thankless. There was soo much more I could have done to my car, so I know my numbers can be bested. Keep working on it.

Thanks for clearing all that up Joe. Cool to have you back on the thread. We know you are watching what's going on here. Your car was most definitely the first race only car that ran 14b power. And quite honestly, your weight advantage is a huge part of the gap that we are trying to bridge. So, while you're up here, care to give us your FWHP numbers on the 14b? I'm curious to know for one. I'm sure there was more you could have done with your car and tried out, but 10.84 with a 126 mph trap speed proves your race weight was a huge variable in the equation. Unless you come up here and say you were making 380 to the wheels....I'm guessing around 340 or so. ??????

 

[SBstar]

Great to see you kicking some more info in here Joe! And thanks again for all the help/advice, I'm finally getting to let it pay off!

Now I'm trying to decide if Mike Knott's time should be on the list as it's the same car? Either way he was involved and should be recognized though. That's a great time even if it is with a car that went over a second faster later on!

And it is interesting to mention that you (Joe) could've done more with the car with the 14b, there was still more to try and believe it or not the car could've gotten lighter. Makes you think that more is possible, but with those trying it shows how hard it actually is!

 

[emo1010]

Aaron's car went a best of 11.76 @ 113. It was a project we worked on together but were luck to have help and advice( not to mention Parts) from joe!
YouTube - Laser 11.76@113

 

[Phil1320]

Aaron's car went a best of 11.76 @ 113. It was a project we worked on together but were luck to have help and advice( not to mention Parts) from joe!

I remember seeing this vid...pretty awesome stuff.....the Laser's are so subtle....I think they are more of a sleeper than the GVR4's.

 

[TSimage]

I remember seeing this vid...pretty awesome stuff.....the Laser's are so subtle....I think they are more of a sleeper than the GVR4's.

But they look exactly like the Talons and Eclipses...