The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[pneumo]

Like i said before, you can pull your cams and swap out your valve springs with the head on the car. I had to pull my cams to replace my valve stem seals on my white talon and bought an "head on the car valve spring compressor" that worked quite well. I would try to pick up one or rent one and swap in those cams once you pick up some valve springs and retainers if you think you're going to need them. It would be nice to see a 14b making good power with the help of some decent cams. Here is a linke to the tool that i used. Schley Products 91400A Universal OHC Valve Spring Compressor

I've used that tool. It can be quicker, but it's also harder to use since you have to hold the handle down against spring pressure while inserting the tiny little keepers.

Here's the tool I just picked up. Euro Export, Inc.
I like it a lot, and it's cheaper. It bolts to the head and uses another bolt to compress the valvespring. The bolt holds the spring down so both hands are free.

 

[Gooberlog]

wow that tool makes it look a lot easier. Yeah when i used the tool i have, i needed a buddy to help out with the keepers.

 

[SBstar]

I might need to make myself one of those, or perhaps just buy one since I'm lazy haha.

 

[Phil1320]

"Phil 1320:Well, someone point me in the direction of a 7cm housing and I'll pick it up!

The cams I have are not going to swing the powerband up at all, they were made FOR THE 14B powerband and they are "X" models and that's why I was told by FP to run upgrade springs, which I don't have yet. And, no, I don't want to pull the head, and that's probably why I haven't thrown the cams in yet. But, with everyone coming out of the woodwork on 14b's for 2010, I may have to do some things I don't want to do in order to keep up! I'd agree on the intercooler as the biggest gain. Even with a bit more weight reduciton, the car is really at it's lightest now, before the rollbar. So, the weight game is pretty much over, which has been one of my easy answers to more speed over the years. Now, it's really just make more power. I refuse to do a lexan windshield and a 1 gallon fuel cell. A fuel cell, yes. But, minimum 10 gallon. I just don't think there will be enough weight to come out of the car to overcome the added weight of the rollbar."

Ask and thall shall receive:
These ads had some 7cm turbine housings set up for internal or external gate all for under $100:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classified...setc-1481/?catid=searchresults&searchid=13352
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classified...-ect-1617/?catid=searchresults&searchid=13352
These ads had used ETS FMIC and aftermarket valve springs and retainers:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/4g63-dsm-parts-for-sale-1/ets-huge-fmic-1150-hp-2625/
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/4g63-dsm-parts-for-sale-1/bc-valve-springs-ti-retainers-2548/


Like i said before, you can pull your cams and swap out your valve springs with the head on the car. I had to pull my cams to replace my valve stem seals on my white talon and bought an "head on the car valve spring compressor" that worked quite well. I would try to pick up one or rent one and swap in those cams once you pick up some valve springs and retainers if you think you're going to need them. It would be nice to see a 14b making good power with the help of some decent cams. Here is a linke to the tool that i used. Schley Products 91400A Universal OHC Valve Spring Compressor

I'm sure the intercooler will help as well, but since you already have some cams laying around in the garage, that may be my first change...other than the only free mod still available, More Weight Reduction

Cool.....thanks for all the links. I'm not ready to purchase anything yet, but hopefully soon. Yeah, I have the cams, Fidanza Cam Gears, and the Balance shaft removal kit sitting in the garage. I may actually bite the bullet and get it alll on the car for next year. The springs are the only thing left to buy and I'm really not sure which ones to get. The BC stuff is good I guess?

Yeah, I do need more power for sure. If I'm gonna run quicker down the 1320 that is. I would actually back the boost off to 16 and run 98 unleaded for the roadcourse stuff.

I've used that tool. It can be quicker, but it's also harder to use since you have to hold the handle down against spring pressure while inserting the tiny little keepers.

Here's the tool I just picked up. Euro Export, Inc.
I like it a lot, and it's cheaper. It bolts to the head and uses another bolt to compress the valvespring. The bolt holds the spring down so both hands are free.

This I will buy for sure. Thanks for the link and sharing the discovery.

 

[habitatguy187]

I think all you guys need to at the least run e85.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil's car is already so lightweight it'd be hard to lose much more! Especially for free, as he said, the cage is going to equal out any weight he gets to tear out this year. He's got to make more power, the cams will probably help, and hopefully a new more efficient front mount. I could see a good two tenths gained from those mods, he needs more powa!

Agreed. As much as I'd like to come out of this whole thing lighter, I don't think I will. With the weight that I plan to take out for next year, I doubt it will counter the rollbar. I will do chromoly, but, still, it will add some weight. Most likely more than I can take out.

I will consider lexan side windows as they are not that expensive, but , that's about the only weight reduction related NEW thing I'll consider I think. My wheels aren't super heavy for 15", but, they are heavier than my 16" wheels for sure. I would consider wheels like Nate's Weld wheels. Again, though, the cost to gain ratio by be marginal.

I think all you guys need to at the least run e85.

I would love to try it, but I wonder if just my AFC2 would be good enough to tune though, I would imagine I'd really need DSMlink or something like that to take advantage of it....

 

[spoonman]

It is mentioned by a few others that although Joe B. car is still the fastest, there are alot more modifications that he could have performed on the car to go even faster. Bumper mounted turbo, (think just a little 14b compressor sticking out), the suspension could be upgraded(lighter more adjustment), the engine was stout but could have had lighter aluminum rods, the engine could be a stroker, lighter drivetrain (clutch). Probably the most crucial thing that could extract the most power is the fuel being used. Joe used race gas, which allowed him to advance the timing and make a little more power. But if you where to use E-85 or Alcohol you can make more power by using less air. The problem with the 14b is that the compressor just can not flow enough LBS/MIN to support enough HP, but with Alcohol you use half as much air per pound of fuel. Methanol will make 20% more power with out factoring in advanced timing and lower intake temperatures. If you have the tuning system and the fuel system I suggest going to E-85.

 

[SBstar]

I will definately be running E-85, but need to get injectors and a wideband first and it isn't looking good for this coming year funds wise. Maybe by the time we get to the shootout I'll be able to upgrade.

 

[habitatguy187]

I would love to try it, but I wonder if just my AFC2 would be good enough to tune though, I would imagine I'd really need DSMlink or something like that to take advantage of it....

e85 will run much better on a bad tune than gasoline will on the same marginally-bad tune. In other words, running too rich on e85 won't hurt you as bad as running too rich with gas. Same thing goes for running lean. I plan on getting my car up and going without even a wideband. Though it's not recommended by any means, I definitely know that it's possible and I can get it close enough by fuel calculations (shoot for a little on the rich side) that I'm not scared of hurting anything.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My line of thinking is that running straight methanol instead of racegas is likely the single biggest thing to gain an advantage on Goodwill.

 

[pneumo]

e85 will run much better on a bad tune than gasoline will on the same marginally-bad tune. In other words, running too rich on e85 won't hurt you as bad as running too rich with gas. Same thing goes for running lean. I plan on getting my car up and going without even a wideband. Though it's not recommended by any means, I definitely know that it's possible and I can get it close enough by fuel calculations (shoot for a little on the rich side) that I'm not scared of hurting anything.

I didn't have a wideband when I snagged the 14b record last year. It can be done if you pay attention to other signs, like the color of the plugs and the sound of the engine.

Methanol sounds like an easy way to get more power. What are some good ways to keep the fuel rail and lines from corroding?

 

[Phil1320]

My line of thinking is that running straight methanol instead of racegas is likely the single biggest thing to gain an advantage on Goodwill.

No doubt.

"Goodwill Hunting"

I didn't have a wideband when I snagged the 14b record last year. It can be done if you pay attention to other signs, like the color of the plugs and the sound of the engine.

Methanol sounds like an easy way to get more power. What are some good ways to keep the fuel rail and lines from corroding?

I do have a wideband thankfully. I don't get the chance to peek at it until 4th gear, but as discussed before, most of my 1/4 pass is in 4th....

Methanol is that destructive huh?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I didn't have a wideband when I snagged the 14b record last year. It can be done if you pay attention to other signs, like the color of the plugs and the sound of the engine.

Methanol sounds like an easy way to get more power. What are some good ways to keep the fuel rail and lines from corroding?

You "pickle" the fuel system by draining the methanol and putting gasoline in the tank, changing the tune, then run the car for a while to clean out all the alky. Leavin meth in the system long term causes the corrosion problems. Runnig meh for 6 hours then getting it out makes it pretty safe on the parts, it shouldn't eat up seals and aluminum when used for short bursts of a couple hours.

Slight pita though, and you should change engine oil more often with an alky setup, I guess it gets past the rings when idling and can dilute the oil eventually.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

What are some good ways to keep the fuel rail and lines from corroding?

Hmm do your research on e85... All you have to do is change your fuel filter and youll be fine. We run it in our 14b car...without a single modification

 

[pneumo]

Hmm do your research on e85... All you have to do is change your fuel filter and youll be fine. We run it in our 14b car...without a single modification

Thanks for the info. That's one less hurdle to overcome.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I'm trying to find out the differences between Methanol and Ethanol when used as a primary fuel. Most of the online info I'v been able to get ahold of is comparing Pumpgas alone VS. Pumpgas primary+ supplementary Meth injection VS. E85 Ethanol primary fuel. In those comparisons E85 primary fuel came out making the best power.been

I have yet to find a comparison between 100% methanol VS. 85% Ethanol/15%gasoline (E85).

Im going to bet that 100% methanol is going to be the best performance fuel. But I think the 15% gasoline in E85 is what makes it "tolerable" long term.

On a side note, once someone goes to 100% alcohol fuel is there any thoughts about a very small nitromethane mixture? I'm pretty sure that's never been done before.

 

[SBstar]

I would venture to guess pure methanol is going to be better then E85. For Ethanol users there is always the ability to go to E98 for pushing the envelope even furthere I suppose. Not to many places to pick up E98 though. Personally I will be running E85, but will have to make due to with E70 for much of the year due to the cold in Michigan. I'll have to stock up during the warm months when it's actually E85 coming out of the local tanks.

The cooling properties, the ability to run leaner, and the ability to run more timing seem to be the real benefits over race gas. All equate to putting more power down to the pavement. E85 is great for us "budget" guys who perhaps still want to drive our car down the road every now and then yet still make great power. The stock fuel system can handle E85 without the corrosion issues of pure alcohol based fuels as well. As said above, you'll probably have to change your fuel filter pretty quickly after switching.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Yes you will make more power on higher mixtures of ethanol. For example a mixture of e95. Im not sure of the exact octane level but it burns even cooler. Im sure you can make even more power on methanol as to ethanol for that fact that no intercooler is needed which would equal to; less of a loss in your total airflow a minute, and cooler intake temps.

I do not know any side effects of running something like e95 since i have to drive 40 minutes just to get my hands on e85 which makes it a pain to daily drive.

 

[Nate Crisman]

HRM, for the amount I'm realistically going to run this car, maybe I should make the 80mile trip to the nearest E85 station in NY (in my beater Pt-loser) and fill up a few 5 gallon containers, maybe buy 40 gallons or so. That would at least get me started on tuning an alky car, then make the smaller tune adjustment to move to sunoco methanol once I have the car settled down.

Seems running a nitromethane mixture is a real possibility since it mixes and stays suspended in alcohol. Might be a little tough on the turbo and exhaust valves though!

 

[pneumo]

Have you seen this thread?
9sec9 engine failure diagnosis
Try to ignore the mud slinging and nut swinging, there's some info about nitromethane in posts #119 and #125.

 

[spoonman]

Methanol is slightly corrosive and will eat away at aluminum, you can get anodized fuel rails to help protect the rail. The oil must be changed frequently or the methanol must be boiled out of the oil, the wash down form the fuel will destroy your oil. If you are running alcohol the "regular" injectors will be fine, the fuel filter should be SS, and Aeromotive makes pumps that are compatible with alcohol.

You can mix in Nitromethane for more Insane power 10%-15% but nitro has an A/F ratio of 1.7:1. If pure nitro was used you could make over 2.5 times as much power as gasoline. The problem is it is hard to get and can cost as much as $45-$60 a gallon.

Alcohol used to be cheap but now to get VP M5 meth it can cost up to $9.00 a gallon. The A/F ratio should be kept around 5:1-6:1, meth likes to run rich.

 

[SBstar]

Another thing to note with the use of methanol is the ability to run some insanely high compression even on a boosted motor. In fact if you run methanol it will actually run better with higher compression according to someone who would seem to be in the know.

As a general rule of thumb a methanol car will run better with higher compression. I run 10.5 :1 and 60 lbs of boost and sometimes 100 shot of nitrous on top of that.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Seems the nitromethane would be something to use in say 5% nitromethane & 95% methanol. It would be easy to mix when using a 1 gallon fuel cell mounted in the headlight/fender area.

that's so far out of my scope right now though, it's almost the last thing I need to worry about when the car is unassembled and I haven't collected all the parts to even put it together.

Not to mention once you start going down the road of running nitromethane, most people are going to raise hell the same as if spraying nitrous-oxide when it comes to claiming a record. And for me atleast, I'v got the nitrous oxide stuff down already and it accomplishes pretty much the same goal will possibly less issues.

 

[SBstar]

There are a million asterisks that could be put next to the "14b record" haha. Alcohol based fuel (methanol or ethanol), even meth injection some people would moan about, 7cm housing (not true 14b right?!?!), stroker motor, liquid to air intercooler, etc... Even the awd vs. fwd argument but we've already been down that road. In the end what truly matters is the 14b chra with both wheels factory in tact. Go ahead and use whatever you want, just know for some the "real" record might be something else.

 

[ihatedsms]

Here is my old 14b car. RIP!. Ran consistant low 12s and was my DD for 3 years.
Car weight was about 2900 with me in it. Setup was
ported 7cm housing
2g mani ported
3 inch exhaust
2.5 o2 dump
2g mas
stock injectors
non turbo fpr
rewired wally 255
web cams
stock motor
street tires
22 psi
ebay fmic
2.5 pipes.
AFC
All on crap tune and beat 2nd gear. Then upgraded to built trans, drag radials, 550s and then i blew the motor gave up and went to a 50 trim setup.

Went a best of 12.22 and best MPH of 112.89. About 5 years ago.

Only have some 12.3 and 12.4 timeslips.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.