The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

That was awesome. for Dave

 

[hubz91talontsi]

He didnt mention that the car would either be running e85 or meth..thats why he isn't running an intercooler

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Im not worried at all about the tune .

 

[Nate Crisman]

He didnt mention that the car would either be running e85 or meth..thats why he isn't running an intercooler

Yeah, that little bit of info would have made the thought somewhat coherent. The original post made it sound like:

"I run a 160* thermostat and the car doesn't overheat, therefor I don't need an intercooler" or "I don't know the difference between intake air temperature and coolant temperature"


Seems is is still debatable if running 100% methanol and no intercooler actually works better than an excellent FMIC and 100% methanol. Noone has done anything back to back without changing other things in the process. Is the FMIC with long pipes worth the weight and pressure loss when running on 100% alcohol?

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Yeah, that little bit of info would have made the thought somewhat coherent. The original post made it sound like:

"I run a 160* thermostat and the car doesn't overheat, therefor I don't need an intercooler" or "I don't know the difference between intake air temperature and coolant temperature"


Seems is is still debatable if running 100% methanol and no intercooler actually works better than an excellent FMIC and 100% methanol. Noone has done anything back to back without changing other things in the process. Is the FMIC with long pipes worth the weight and pressure loss when running on 100% alcohol?

I think without a large front mount i can gain some spool up, and ive done quite a bit of research with e85 and ive seen that running at 22-23 psi WOT that my intake temps go way down(this is also without fans on the car and in some pretty warm summer nights) even maxing the 680s at 117% injector duty. I plan on getting some 1000s and putting it back on e85 when we get a little warmer temps.

Also working on getting a cam that fits my needs. And working on making the rotating assembly as light as possible and cheap .

 

[habitatguy187]

and ive done quite a bit of research with e85 and ive seen that running at 22-23 psi WOT that my intake temps go way down(this is also without fans on the car and in some pretty warm summer nights)

That's true for everyone though. I wonder what your EGTs or even coolant temps look like after a wot pull. Intake temps are measured pre-motor, so with or without an IC the intake temps will be the same. I wouldn't run straight e85 and no IC without water/meth injection.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Just bought some 865cc Injectors, also looking into some fp1 or fp2 cams.

 

[Phil1320]

Seems is is still debatable if running 100% methanol and no intercooler actually works better than an excellent FMIC and 100% methanol. Noone has done anything back to back without changing other things in the process. Is the FMIC with long pipes worth the weight and pressure loss when running on 100% alcohol?

I agree.

Also, why no talk of air/water I/C set ups as Joe B. ran? I'd be interested to know what Joe B.'s car put down for power. Not sure if he ever posted that. I'd have to guess, even with how light the car is, to trap 126 mph, maybe 345-365 at the front wheels.

It will be interesting to see if anyone actually gets some of the discussed set ups on their cars and to see if there is a great advantage with the 14b.

I'll be sticking with the good ole air to air.

Good luck guys with these set ups, hope to see some killer results!

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

I agree.

Also, why no talk of air/water I/C set ups as Joe B. ran? I'd be interested to know what Joe B.'s car put down for power. Not sure if he ever posted that. I'd have to guess, even with how light the car is, to trap 126 mph, maybe 345-365 at the front wheels.

It will be interesting to see if anyone actually gets some of the discussed set ups on their cars and to see if there is a great advantage with the 14b.

I'll be sticking with the good ole air to air.

Good luck guys with these set ups, hope to see some killer results!

My setup is done, i daily drive it. Well today im going to start the tear down, got some new stuff going on that ill keep a secret for now .

I just a few things now!

Whats everyones lb/min like!?

 

[Phil1320]

My setup is done, i daily drive it. Well today im going to start the tear down, got some new stuff going on that ill keep a secret for now .

So....then your set-up isn't done...

Keep a secret? I'd be hard pressed to think that what you're keeping a secret hasn't been out in the open before, but, I'll be interested to see if it enlightens me when you decide to let the cat out of the bag.

 

[habitatguy187]

Hubbell you're saying that you're already dd'ing the talon and running "25psi +" on the 14b? I can't imagine that it will hold up to that for very long....but I have been wrong before.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I agree.

Also, why no talk of air/water I/C set ups as Joe B. ran? I'd be interested to know what Joe B.'s car put down for power. Not sure if he ever posted that. I'd have to guess, even with how light the car is, to trap 126 mph, maybe 345-365 at the front wheels.

It will be interesting to see if anyone actually gets some of the discussed set ups on their cars and to see if there is a great advantage with the 14b.

I'll be sticking with the good ole air to air.

Good luck guys with these set ups, hope to see some killer results!

If you are running gasoline, then I think the Air/water will make more power from air temp and less pressure loss and overcome the weight gain from the water box, pump, & lines.

If you are running methanol for fuel, Im not so sure. I'm wondering if cooling the post turbo air down results in a significant density increase in the cylinder after all the evaporative cooling that you get from running methanol.

Just for arguement's sake Ill make up some #'s (pull out of nowhere) just to illustrate my thought:.. On gasoline...hypotherical 14b car makes:
gasoline/no intercooler: barely makes 225hp...knocks like crazy...ait in the 300's
Gasoline/good FMIC: 300hp, ait in the low 100's
gasoline/water ic: 330hp, ait in the 40-50*F

methanol/no intercooler: 330hp, ait in the 50'-60's
methanol/fmic: 320hp ait in the same 50-60's
methanol/water ic: 335hp, ait in the 30-40's


That's kind of how I'm guessing it would break down roughly. That if you are running gasoline and need AIT cooling, an air/water intercooler makes enough power to more than offset it's weight gain.

But I'm guessing that if your running meth, it might not make enough of a power gain through temp alone to offset the weight.

Grain of salt needed, Im completely making uneducated guesses and wild predictions.

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

Hubbell you're saying that you're already dd'ing the talon and running "25psi +" on the 14b? I can't imagine that it will hold up to that for very long....but I have been wrong before.

Just because the car is currently at 23psi doesnt mean i hit 23psi every time i get the chance. I rarely beat on the car.

 

[Phil1320]

If you are running gasoline, then I think the Air/water will make more power from air temp and less pressure loss and overcome the weight gain from the water box, pump, & lines.

If you are running methanol for fuel, Im not so sure. I'm wondering if cooling the post turbo air down results in a significant density increase in the cylinder after all the evaporative cooling that you get from running methanol.

Just for arguement's sake Ill make up some #'s (pull out of nowhere) just to illustrate my thought:.. On gasoline...hypotherical 14b car makes:
gasoline/no intercooler: barely makes 225hp...knocks like crazy...ait in the 300's
Gasoline/good FMIC: 300hp, ait in the low 100's
gasoline/water ic: 330hp, ait in the 40-50*F

methanol/no intercooler: 330hp, ait in the 50'-60's
methanol/fmic: 320hp ait in the same 50-60's
methanol/water ic: 335hp, ait in the 30-40's


That's kind of how I'm guessing it would break down roughly. That if you are running gasoline and need AIT cooling, an air/water intercooler makes enough power to more than offset it's weight gain.

But I'm guessing that if your running meth, it might not make enough of a power gain through temp alone to offset the weight.

Grain of salt needed, Im completely making uneducated guesses and wild predictions.

Nonetheless, it makes a neat comparison......although it supports the use of air/water pretty good, that's why I'm surprised noone has mentioned using that set-up. I mean, it did power the quickest 14b car ever, even if not the "optimum" set-up, it worked well. And it remains to be seen if any other set up including fuel choice, 2g head/EVO 3 will make a significant enough difference to challenge. I personally think it might take use of straight methanol or better to challenge the 10.84 pass(NO NOS.) I could be wrong, but I think it's going to be tough on plain old race gas, no matter the set up.

 

[SBstar]

I'd have to agree with Phil, I think it'll be very hard to beat the 10.84 time on gasoline and an air to air intercooler. I've posted it elsewhere that Joe gained .4 when he added the air to water and the haltech. Obviously there was a decent gain in the tuning, but also in the IC. If you're going to try running E-85 with no intercooler it's going to require meth injection, plain and simple. The tuning is not simplistic either from what I've gathered.

I'd love to run a liquid to air setup, problem being I've decided to keep this one on the street for the most part. For those who are going to be track only, it's not only a great option it's probably the best one next to running straight methanol.

Now E-85 has better cooling properties then gasoline, of course not as good as straight methanol, but it will make a good difference. I plan on running E-85 plus a good fmic setup, that should make for some decent IAT's.

I seen something about not running an intercooler and gaining spool time? Although this may be true, the real thing gain is not having pressure drop. Therefore the turbo would be more efficient at any level.

 

[habitatguy187]

Anyone know what CR Joe B. was running? It wasn't the stock 7.8 was it?

 

[Phil1320]

Anyone know what CR Joe B. was running? It wasn't the stock 7.8 was it?

Only thing I ever read was he was running 9.0:1 Arias pistons. I don't know if that was the set-up when he was on 14b though, early on probably not, but, I'd be willing to bet that was the comp when he ran 10's.

Also worth noting here. Joe ran 10.51@133 on the small 16g, so to think a 14b could do the same is great, but, will definitely take some perserverance.

At this point, I'm not sure an AWD car can run 10.8(on the bottle, yes.) Someone may have to mimic Joe's FWD effort to challenge. We all know there's a point where AWD launch advantage is overcome by the lighter weight/less driveline of the FWD platform. 14b land has been there for a while now if you ask me, at the dragstrip only, not on the street, but that really has no bearing on this discussion.

As of now, my 11.49 being the quickest AWD platform 14b(no nos,) I'm still a full .65 of a second off. Now, sure, I don't make the maximum HP ever seen out of the 14b, but, let's say I could make 335 AWHP, 40 more than I have now, anyone think that bridges a .65 second gap with about 2600 total race weight? As light as my car will be, I still don't see it. But, one of you guys that's more technically involved here may be able to chime in and tell me I'm dead wrong, and that would be great. I know what it took for me to drop ET by .51 in '09. But, anything is possible I suppose.

Even if we can make the power Joe B. made, not as much of it hits the ground. I know of a 20g car that made 10 less HP at the ground AWD, than when it dynoed FWD-still with AWD trans., but that number could be off because of differences in the FWD and AWD trannies, so it may be more like 12 HP, if that would hold for a 14b turbo as well. So, we really NEED to make MORE power and then we still have to deal with the obvious disadvantage - WEIGHT. Either way, just gonna be a tough task, and when I heard, "we are looking to smash Joe B.'s record." My only thought was--Good luck with that!

 

[SBstar]

Well from the get-go the awd car is going to weigh just about 300lbs heavier then a fwd car. Then remember that Joe was driving a laser which is going to be the lightest fwd platform available. It would be extremely tough to get very close to him weight wise. It's apparently very obvious that Joe's setup worked very well and he was making good power. It's going to be tough to make more power then he did. I think those guys looking at methanol are thinking in the right direction, but overall it takes a little bit away from the whole thing.

If you look at his 10.8 here is the run down.

1.626 60ft. - Phil proved with awd properly setup you can best this by .14, it'll be tough to get better then that but figure yourself a tenth ahead at this point.

6.994 1/8th Our nearest competitor is down by .285 at this point

9.102 vs. 9.562 at the 1000ft mark Bucci is still pulling away .46 ahead

10.84 vs 11.49 - .65

If you took away the incredible launches Phil was making, many of us won't be seeing 1.4's, and not even taking away the difference a true .1 in the 60ft will affect the entire 1/4, and you're talking .79 of difference!

Right now I think the person making the closest power to Joe Bucci is Dave. Dave is .674 back currently. I think Dave could lose at least another 100-150 lbs on the car easily, and cut the 60 ft down by about a tenth with slicks and the like. Even then he'd still be off the pace by quite a bit.

 

[Phil1320]

Well from the get-go the awd car is going to weigh just about 300lbs heavier then a fwd car. Then remember that Joe was driving a laser which is going to be the lightest fwd platform available. It would be extremely tough to get very close to him weight wise. It's apparently very obvious that Joe's setup worked very well and he was making good power. It's going to be tough to make more power then he did. I think those guys looking at methanol are thinking in the right direction, but overall it takes a little bit away from the whole thing.

If you look at his 10.8 here is the run down.

1.626 60ft. - Phil proved with awd properly setup you can best this by .14, it'll be tough to get better then that but figure yourself a tenth ahead at this point.

6.994 1/8th Our nearest competitor is down by .285 at this point

9.102 vs. 9.562 at the 1000ft mark Bucci is still pulling away .46 ahead

10.84 vs 11.49 - .65

If you took away the incredible launches Phil was making, many of us won't be seeing 1.4's, and not even taking away the difference a true .1 in the 60ft will affect the entire 1/4, and you're talking .79 of difference!

Right now I think the person making the closest power to Joe Bucci is Dave. Dave is .674 back currently. I think Dave could lose at least another 100-150 lbs on the car easily, and cut the 60 ft down by about a tenth with slicks and the like. Even then he'd still be off the pace by quite a bit.

Yeah, it's basically, I kill him out of the hole(same reaction of course,) watch him pass and constantly pull away all the way down.

I think his total race weight is about 2200 and mine was maybe 2575 I think I said elsewhere. Pretty big deficit to overcome for sure.

Sidenote: I read that Joe ran the modded AWD tranny in his car. Not sure if that created any loss over a standard FWD tranny.

I agree, Dave made the most power other than Joe, on the 14b. Those 118 MPH traps with his weight say it all. I think with the set-up he is going to run, and better 60's, maybe a bit of weight loss, he might hit 11.20's. This is where my local friends are putting me with better FMIC, balance shafts removed, and with the cams. As you say, still a ways off the pace. We'll see.

As you've stated above, I'm off about .3 to the 1/8, and as I've said elsewhere, I think the 1/8 mile number will fall and be beaten by an AWD car. I think I can run another .10 quicker to the 60' when it's warmer out or at a better prepped track than I normally run at, so about 1.40 flat, maybe touch 1.3's which will help that effort. It's just that super strong top end that will be hard to overcome.

 

[Nate Crisman]

#1 the AWD car has to 60' better than high 1.4's. We need to absolutely destroy the FWD out of the hole. That's going to mean significant effort into starting line traction. I'm hearing talk about front limiting straps and preloaded wheelie bars.

#2 there is weight to be lost still: Going off Phils' 2575 (lightest of awd yet):

• 1 gal plastic fuel cell, short lines, less than a gallon of fuel...that's going to be about 40lb of weight loss right there. Stock tank is 32lb, it needs at least 2.5 gallons of fuel to keep the pump submerged.
• complete removal of the fmic and pipe system (if running straight meth enables it) is another 20-25lb.
• None of us have gone to the maximum in lightweight wheels.
• None of us are 100% lexan and fiberglass body parts that are available
• Phil's car is still on cast exhaust manifold and intake manifold. (weight and power).
• side exit exhaust could lost about 7lb compared to o2housing/downpipe
• wiring harnesses all gutted to bare neccessity?: 20+lb there
• I see wing parts and ground effects and rear swaybar still on Phils car.
• willwood aluminum calipers & those 2 piece light rotors...big rotating weight
• aluminum race seat vs your stock seat
• aluminum engine mounts, tube subframe members

#3 Not one of us AWD guys has gone 100% into power production. Noone has run straight meth yet. Noone has experimented with air/water. Only one guy has done the SMIM/Cams and thought about powerband vs gearing. Dave is the only one who has really spent time on optimizing the engine tuning, and he still hasn't tried out multiple cams or spent time on the dyno figuring out adjustable cam gear settings. JMF has a "special" smim that Curt is going to try that is sized for small turbo & 2g head. Electric water pump? crankcase evacuation? Significantly higher compression & serious head porting.

As I have said before, it is going to take a 100% effort on all three fronts; power, weight, and traction. AWD contenders thus far have gone 75-90% of the way on one front or two. None of us has made it to 100% in any area yet. Joe B likely gets a 97% on weight, 90% on power, and 70% on traction.

I really think Phil's car could pick up 4-5mph and .500ET just in engine mods/tuning/fuel.
I think with a serious effort into optimizing the launch..we can go 1.35's...for more than .200ET.
I think there is at least 100lb more weight that could be lost for another 1 mph and .100ET

Wouldn't 10.7 @ 122 seem pretty damn awesome? IMHO it's attainable.


Just another quicky comparason via online dragstrip & weight to hp calculator:
2200lb - 10.8 @ 126 = 343hp
2300lb - 10.8 @ 126 = 359hp
2400lb - 10.8 @ 126 = 375hp
2500lb - 10.8 @ 126 = 390hp
2600lb - 10.8 @ 126 = 406hp
2700lb - 10.8 @ 126 = 422hp

2500lb - 11.30 @ 120.7 = 343hp
These calculator assume "optimal launch/traction".

 

[Black_Bullet]

I think the water/air Ic IS needed. In addition to whats said above, cracking open the motor and shooting for additional power in real high compression, i.e. 12.1 compression ratios or maybe even higher. Also, something that might not be very appealing to everyone, but have you guys also thought about carbon fiber body parts, hood, hatch, doors etc.
If light weight driveshaft is already done, something else to throw in the air is that the vicious coupler can be removed and you can buy that little light weight locking sleeve from Shep which can be installed in its place and it weighs only a few ounces. This is assuming the car is a welded diff car? I think beating Bucci's 14b time on Phils car with everything thats been said so far is possible.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I think the water/air Ic IS needed. In addition to whats said above, cracking open the motor and shooting for additional power in real high compression, i.e. 12.1 compression ratios or maybe even higher. Also, something that might not be very appealing to everyone, but have you guys also thought about carbon fiber body parts, hood, hatch, doors etc.
If light weight driveshaft is already done, something else to throw in the air is that the vicious coupler can be removed and you can buy that little light weight locking sleeve from Shep which can be installed in its place and it weighs only a few ounces. This is assuming the car is a welded diff car? I think beating Bucci's 14b time on Phils car with everything thats been said so far is possible.

Yes there are lots off weight loss items in the drivetrain as well, some are rotating weight that increase effective whp as well:

aluminum crank pully
aluminum flywheel
unsprung puck clutch disk is significantly lighter than street disk ~2lb rotating
viscous coupling eliminator..I think this is about 8lb rotating
balance shafts out saves 6lb rotating
a 90 aluminum head Xcase saves 8lb
I'v never had a fancy CF driveshaft, Phil's going to have to tell us that #

There really is weight everywhere to be lost in nearly every subsection of the car. little bits here and there all add up.


On my end, I picked up my 14b contender on saturday. It's still a shell. 4bolt rear and shifter & cables is sitting inside the car along with a fuel tank that Im not going to use. I have an engine swap to finish up on my GVR4 before I can get this car into the shop and start cleaning it up, but Iv been collecting parts. Have a longblock for it now (just need gaskets), bought a 14b (just need to buy an E316g, as I want to start with the light 7cm housing). Have an alum flywheel and unsprung puck disk, just need to find a used 2600pp. Iv got 2 bad trannies that I think I can combine to make one usable (will have diff welded while apart, maybe both, and get the VCE sleeve).

But before any assembly happens, Iv gotta remove all the old vinyl from 2005 and go over the body, interior, and engine bay to clean it up...everything is dusty/dirty. The underside is a mess. It hasn't been washed since mid 2005.

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[Gooberlog]

I remember looking at that yellow talon on their website back in 2002!

 

[Nate Crisman]

I remember looking at that yellow talon on their website back in 2002!

yup 2002 was the first year I ran this car as a "shop car" kind of thing when I started DSMotorsport.
I bought the car in 1998, drove it everyday for a while, then it became a racecar in late 99 till fall 00 when I needed a daily driver again...so it went back on the road. Summer 2001 was when I painted it yellow the first time. It was the "limo" at my wedding in Oct 01 (wife had to climb over rollbar in wedding dress!). 2002 it went 11.0 on 50trim/10.8 with nitrous. 2003 it sat apart. 2004 was a 14B year. 2005 went 10.0@147 then got parted and hasn't had an engine since.

Lots of memories in this old heap, that's pretty much the only reason I bought it back, nostalgia. But since I have the shell, might as well do something with it...so 14B we go.

 

[SBstar]

You had quite a bit of weight reduction in that car as well Nate Perfect platform to start with.

I agree with you that it's possible, but it's far from easy. Again you're talking about going 100%, sparing no expense on modifications to make it a pure drag car designed around the 14b. The extreme's will have to be met to make it possible. It'll happen, records are made to be broken