The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

The hawver didn't go on Bucci's car until the 16g.

Interesting intake mani that's for sure, I've thought about it but as it's already been said, those shorter runners might not do much for this tiny turbo. The more I read about the 2g head the more i think it may be a better fit for the 14b, I doubt we're doing all that much using the larger ports on the 1g head with the 14b, and I think the advanced design of the 2g head would have some gains. Finding an intake manifold would be the hard part, the evo III intake mani seems great, but has yet to be proven. A nice 2g SMIM with slightly longer runners would be great, but find me someone who will make one for you

The weight savings on your wheels is going to give more gains then on the driveshaft, that's just simple physics isn't it?

Seems to me whoever comes studies all this the hardest and actually has the money to spend will come out in the end. But truthfully I'll still put my money on the people who have been at it the longest. Every new guy comes in wanting to do something, but most of those people give up before accomplishing anything. Not to piss in anyone's cherios, as everyone stared somewhere, my point is it'll be interesting to see who sticks with it.

 

[Phil1320]

Would be a good thing to find out, and also those plenum spacer gaskets that reduce heat to the intake manifold also slightly act as 'longer runners'. Just a thought...

It would, and believe it or not, I already thought about the fact that those spacers will make a longer path I'm with you there.....

 

[Gooberlog]

The hawver didn't go on Bucci's car until the 16g.

Interesting intake mani that's for sure, I've thought about it but as it's already been said, those shorter runners might not do much for this tiny turbo. The more I read about the 2g head the more i think it may be a better fit for the 14b, I doubt we're doing all that much using the larger ports on the 1g head with the 14b, and I think the advanced design of the 2g head would have some gains. Finding an intake manifold would be the hard part, the evo III intake mani seems great, but has yet to be proven. A nice 2g SMIM with slightly longer runners would be great, but find me someone who will make one for you

The weight savings on your wheels is going to give more gains then on the driveshaft, that's just simple physics isn't it?

Seems to me whoever comes studies all this the hardest and actually has the money to spend will come out in the end. But truthfully I'll still put my money on the people who have been at it the longest. Every new guy comes in wanting to do something, but most of those people give up before accomplishing anything. Not to piss in anyone's cherios, as everyone stared somewhere, my point is it'll be interesting to see who sticks with it.

Yeah, not to mention people willing to make the necessary sacrifices to their cars to get there. The more race-ready my 1g gets, the less comfortable it gets to drive. Mainly focusing on the new suspension which is far from a comfortable daily driver and not to mention the manual steering which isn't too bad, but worse than the extra steering effort is the extra number of turns in the steerings turning radius.
I will pursue a new personal best 14b time on my car, but i want to keep my car streetable. These records are not likely to be beaten by a street car but by a race car on a trailer. So to sum up what SBstar said: Experience + $ + very very light 1g= new 14b record holder. This really does look to be like a interesting race season coming up.

 

[Phil1320]

The hawver didn't go on Bucci's car until the 16g.

Interesting intake mani that's for sure, I've thought about it but as it's already been said, those shorter runners might not do much for this tiny turbo. The more I read about the 2g head the more i think it may be a better fit for the 14b, I doubt we're doing all that much using the larger ports on the 1g head with the 14b, and I think the advanced design of the 2g head would have some gains. Finding an intake manifold would be the hard part, the evo III intake mani seems great, but has yet to be proven. A nice 2g SMIM with slightly longer runners would be great, but find me someone who will make one for you

The weight savings on your wheels is going to give more gains then on the driveshaft, that's just simple physics isn't it?

Seems to me whoever comes studies all this the hardest and actually has the money to spend will come out in the end. But truthfully I'll still put my money on the people who have been at it the longest. Every new guy comes in wanting to do something, but most of those people give up before accomplishing anything. Not to piss in anyone's cherios, as everyone stared somewhere, my point is it'll be interesting to see who sticks with it.

I would say the wheels are more important as well, and off-topic, for braking especially. That said, the response difference after I added the ACT flywheel and the DSS aluminum driveshaft was amazing. Unreal how fast the 8,000 rev limit came up in 1st gear. Even though the balance shafts are not as heavy as I thought, their removal must help in this way as well which I would really like. Even if no extra power hits the ground it wouldn't matter. For instance, the VR4 revs so slowly at WOT, it's pathetic. I'm a firm believer in lightweight wheels and driveline parts alike.

I agree with your above statements. It depends on what having the record is worth to someone on many levels. To some, spending isn't an issue therefore even with substandard driving, if enough power is made, a record could be broken.

And yes, it will be interesting to see who sticks with it, obviously, I include myself in that. Some days I feel I'm beating a dead horse, other days, I'm inspired to continue the journey. I suppose, as long as I have the talon, I can always come back to it. It's when the car is gone that I will have finally laid it to rest.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Yeah, not to mention people willing to make the necessary sacrifices to their cars to get there. The more race-ready my 1g gets, the less comfortable it gets to drive. Mainly focusing on the new suspension which is far from a comfortable daily driver and not to mention the manual steering which isn't too bad, but worse than the extra steering effort is the extra number of turns in the steerings turning radius.
I will pursue a new personal best 14b time on my car, but i want to keep my car streetable. These records are not likely to be beaten by a street car but by a race car on a trailer. So to sum up what SBstar said: Experience + $ + very very light 1g= new 14b record holder. This really does look to be like a interesting race season coming up.

I love my manual rack. Power steering is too light. I can still one hand drive anywhere with ease with the manual rack, the only time I need two hands is when turning the wheel into a tight parking space at under 5mph. To add to that I have a smaller Ralliart Racing steering wheel which makes turning even harder than big stock wheel and also I have a welded diff which is the ONLY thing Ive done that to me negatively affects drive ability and comfort.. I also love how removing P/S clears up so much room, reduces parasitic drag on the motor, and drops weight. These 1gs should've never came with P/S from factory in my opinion, manual rack is too easy to drive with...

I would say the wheels are more important as well, and off-topic, for braking especially. That said, the response difference after I added the ACT flywheel and the DSS aluminum driveshaft was amazing. Unreal how fast the 8,000 rev limit came up in 1st gear. Even though the balance shafts are not as heavy as I thought, their removal must help in this way as well which I would really like. Even if no extra power hits the ground it wouldn't matter. For instance, the VR4 revs so slowly at WOT, it's pathetic. I'm a firm believer in lightweight wheels and driveline parts alike.

I agree with your above statements. It depends on what having the record is worth to someone on many levels. To some, spending isn't an issue therefore even with substandard driving, if enough power is made, a record could be broken.

And yes, it will be interesting to see who sticks with it, obviously, I include myself in that. Some days I feel I'm beating a dead horse, other days, I'm inspired to continue the journey. I suppose, as long as I have the talon, I can always come back to it. It's when the car is gone that I will have finally laid it to rest.

Two questions, do you have open diff or welded, and if welded do you have one of those light weight locking sleeves that replaces the VC. My friend put one of those in his tranny, and it feels like it barely weighs a lb versus the heavy VC that is maybe a good 8lbs. Like I was mentioning earlier in thread, thats more rotating weight reduction right there.

Second question, do you run solid mounts, or prothane? I just have prothanes, my same friend runs solid mounts and big difference, and Ive heard solid mounts can give an advantage in helping to reduce 60ft further.

Another thing, which Im sure you wont invest in, and maybe its been discussed already, but Ive always thought there is a huge weight saving in CF hood and hatch with light weight window replacing stock glass in the rear. ( Hell lexan/speed glass windows replacing all windows even better)

Ive also seen a guy with a all out 1g fwd that knew Bucci down here, whom is building his car to attack Bucci's no nos 16g record, i believe he said he has some parts off of Bucci's car. I dont think he's on the forums, but somehow they cut up the front of his car and tubed it professionally and dropped 80lbs off the front end and the radiator etc all still sits like stock and its very sturdy. Its extremely gutted and they said it was down in the 2300lb range with driver.

Just throwing around some more ideas. Whats funny, you guys are chasing 10s with a stock turbo, I will be content with my car to run high 10s with my Hx40 and stop there. LoL.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah, not to mention people willing to make the necessary sacrifices to their cars to get there. The more race-ready my 1g gets, the less comfortable it gets to drive. Mainly focusing on the new suspension which is far from a comfortable daily driver and not to mention the manual steering which isn't too bad, but worse than the extra steering effort is the extra number of turns in the steerings turning radius.
I will pursue a new personal best 14b time on my car, but i want to keep my car streetable. These records are not likely to be beaten by a street car but by a race car on a trailer. So to sum up what SBstar said: Experience + $ + very very light 1g= new 14b record holder. This really does look to be like a interesting race season coming up.

True, true. I think the only way a "streetable" DSM can run quicker than 10.84 is on a NOS shot, period. And if you're running straight methanol, that doesn't fall into a street category, in my book anyway. And opinions will differ on this subject for sure. Apparently there are low 7 second "streetable" Mustangs out there. I laugh at this. Those cars couldn't round a highway on ramp at more than 25 mph, that's no street car in my book. Anyway, without getting too off-topic. In my book, the car that runs 10.83 or better will be a race car that is trailered to the track. The things you say above Trav, are why I finally unregistered my talon for road use. It is not, and was NOT a street car any longer. Sure, "streetable," but that's a bit vague. It was not fun to drive down the street anymore. Not that I'm a creature comfort guy at all, but, it was definitely no longer any fun, except when doing things that will get you jail time and community service these days. Some locals laughed and joked that I was calling my high 11 second car a "race car." Saying, 11 seconds doesn't make your car a race car. You figure I'd get props for not saying it was a street car. Sometimes, you just can't win. Streetable does not equal STREET LEGAL, and my car was a stretch on both counts. As the car sits, it is NOT street legal by any stretch, let alone streetable, in many ways.

Two questions, do you have open diff or welded, and if welded do you have one of those light weight locking sleeves that replaces the VC. My friend put one of those in his tranny, and it feels like it barely weighs a lb versus the heavy VC that is maybe a good 8lbs. Thats more rotating weight right there.

Second question, do you run solid mounts, or prothane? I just have prothanes, my same friend runs solid mounts and big difference, and Ive heard solid mounts can give an advantage in helping to reduce 60ft further.

Another thing, which Im sure you wont invest in, and maybe its been discussed already, but Ive always thought there is a huge weight saving in CF hood and hatch with light weight window replacing stock glass in the rear. ( Hell lexan/speed glass windows replacing all windows even better)

#1 open diff, bone stock trans. Ran a welded VC and hated it on the street. Pulled it back out and never went back in.

#2 Prothane mounts with just inserts in front(left side.) Planned on buying Prothane full mount for that one that came out years after my kit.

#3 I have a fiberglass overlay rear hatch with no bracing and hatch lexan, it's stupid light. I have door and rear 1/4 lexan to go in for 2010. I won't spring for lexan windshield.

Thanks for the idea's though!

 

[Black_Bullet]

Hmm.. I think you should go with solid mounts instead of prothanes if you are to change out your inserts, and also whats the whole deal with Bucci running a awd trans anyways, and what did he have done to the trans. Was the gearing changed to help his times, like say Evo3 gears? Longer first gear? Etc. Transmission work, Another thing to consider maybe?
One more idea, perhaps a cheap ebay Aluminum Honda half a radiator drops some weight in its smaller size and fluid amount, plus clears up more room... I was thinking about it myself. Theres some threads floating around to show its easy to do, and doesnt cause the car to run any hotter.

 

[Gooberlog]

I love my manual rack. Power steering is too light. I can still one hand drive anywhere with ease with the manual rack, the only time I need two hands is when turning the wheel into a tight parking space at under 5mph. To add to that I have a smaller Ralliart Racing steering wheel which makes turning even harder than big stock wheel and also I have a welded diff which is the ONLY thing Ive done that to me negatively affects drive ability and comfort.. I also love how removing P/S clears up so much room, reduces parasitic drag on the motor, and drops weight. These 1gs should've never came with P/S from factory in my opinion, manual rack is too easy to drive with...

Just throwing around some more ideas. Whats funny, you guys are chasing 10s with a stock turbo, I will be content with my car to run high 10s with my Hx40 and stop there. LoL.

I agree with all of the quoted above. If you read my post again, i was saying that the thing about the manual rack that annoys me isn't the steering effort, but the extra number of turns it takes to steer. A three point turn now takes a while and even a 90* turn on a normal street you have to turn the steering wheel a lot more than just tweaking the wheel 45* with power steering. But yes i love my manual steering overall. I tell my buddies that i have driven it with a coffee in one hand multiple times, but getting going from the McD's parking lot is tricky with a coffee in one hand and a stiff wheel in the other. I love how it cleans up the engine bay and i like the thought of less drag on the engine w/o the PS pulley now.
Also, I too will be happy to run a high 10 some day on a holset, but i have my eyes set on a HX-35 (7 blade) which should be more than enough with my light car to get there.

One more idea, perhaps a cheap ebay Aluminum Honda half a radiator drops some weight in its smaller size and fluid amount, plus clears up more room... I was thinking about it myself. Theres some threads floating around to show its easy to do, and doesnt cause the car to run any hotter.

Yeah, and if you fab'ed up mounts to install it on the trans side, the air rushing in on the engine side might cool down the exhaust hot parts a bit and the LICP and or J-pipes for people that have FMICs.

DSM Trader hosted by DSMsource.com - Message
This would be a good start to the 14b record breaking race car

 

[pneumo]

"DSM Trader hosted by DSMsource.com - Message
This would be a good start to the 14b record breaking race car "

ack! it says 'you must be registered to view'

Can you summarize it for us?

I always thought this car would make a nice starting point for a run at the 14B record. It's already very efficient. 90 Laser

 

[Gooberlog]

"DSM Trader hosted by DSMsource.com - Message
This would be a good start to the 14b record breaking race car "

ack! it says 'you must be registered to view'

Can you summarize it for us?

I always thought this car would make a nice starting point for a run at the 14B record. It's already very efficient. 90 Laser

It's a used short block that has been cleaned and honed. Set up for drag only. Cemented water jackets, waterpump delete etc. $300 from someone at AMS performance.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I agree with all of the quoted above. If you read my post again, i was saying that the thing about the manual rack that annoys me isn't the steering effort, but the extra number of turns it takes to steer. A three point turn now takes a while and even a 90* turn on a normal street you have to turn the steering wheel a lot more than just tweaking the wheel 45* with power steering. But yes i love my manual steering overall. I tell my buddies that i have driven it with a coffee in one hand multiple times, but getting going from the McD's parking lot is tricky with a coffee in one hand and a stiff wheel in the other.

Getting going from McD's parking lots should be tricky for anyone if you ate there. LoL
Yea man I see what you mean now though, I forgot the manual rack had more turns than the regular steering. I havent really noticed or remembered i guess... I dont think thats really an issue unless you Auto-X your car.
And high to mid 10s is a good ending goal for these cars in my opinion. You dont need a hx40 to do that, especially being yours is light weight.
Obviously there is more bragging rights to be able to do that ET with a 14b, but I still think the higher powered, bigger turbo car is funner even if its running the same ET, due to much more trap speed and driving the car easier. These fast 14b times takes driving the piss out of your car!

 

[Gooberlog]

Well put on that one.

 

[Phil1320]

And high to mid 10s is a good ending goal for these cars in my opinion. You dont need a hx40 to do that, especially being yours is light weight.
Obviously there is more bragging rights to be able to do that ET with a 14b, but I still think the higher powered, bigger turbo car is funner even if its running the same ET, due to much more trap speed and driving the car easier. These fast 14b times takes driving the piss out of your car!

High tens would be killer. "Ending Goal" yes. End result....I may be trying for years to come! Trap speed is definitely not huge with my car, especially after running the slicks at 11 psi, but the 1/8 mile is really fun. I hear you on having so much more speed paired with similar ET. And, agreed, you have to drive the piss out of the car.

Well put on that one.

Ditto.

 

[Gooberlog]

I can't imagine Phil's car running high tens or even low 11's (damn near right now), and then installing a new turbo set up making over 450awhp. I think the car would fold in half under the power.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I can't imagine Phil's car running high tens or even low 11's (damn near right now), and then installing a new turbo set up making over 450awhp. I think the car would fold in half under the power.

If your talking about the puny dsm drivetrain, then I concur.
Putting down that type of power for him would mean, much higher trap speeds, but likely less traction thus resulting in not too different of an ET.But with the additional power, if it was still made to dead hook, with hard driving and low 60fts then it would = broken shit, and migraine headaches... At least the high way pulls would be fun though .

 

[Gooberlog]

Yeah no kidding. Maybe like 11.20 @ 140mph

 

[Phil1320]

I can't imagine Phil's car running high tens or even low 11's (damn near right now), and then installing a new turbo set up making over 450awhp. I think the car would fold in half under the power.

With 450 awhp, I would think my car would trap 135-140 mph and damn near be in the 9's.....

I'd guess an EVO3 16g would put the car solid in the 10's up near 130 mph. I mean look at carfanatic 88 from Canada, that car traps 128+ with an 11.24 ET and is super heavy compared with my car.....and I am even with him at the 1/8 mile with 7.27, so I would definitely walk him hard the second 1/8 with his power....

The car is not weak by any means by being so light, and it's easier on drivetrain parts the most any other car out there due to the fact I don't make much power, comparative to others out there.

The car feels unreal the first 1/8 as it sits, I couldn't imagine having another 155awhp.....

If your talking about the puny dsm drivetrain, then I concur.
Putting down that type of power for him would mean, much higher trap speeds, but likely less traction thus resulting in not too different of an ET.But with the additional power, if it was still made to dead hook, with hard driving and low 60fts then it would = broken shit, and migraine headaches... At least the high way pulls would be fun though .

At that point, I bolt on 26" slicks and putting the power down wouldn't be a problem and trap speed would be even higher...

No highway pulls for me.....not registered.......but would be fun!

Yeah no kidding. Maybe like 11.20 @ 140mph

That would be crazy, but, I'll stick with my current trend and hope for

10.83@122 like Nate was talking about

All I can really do is hope!

 

[Black_Bullet]

At that point, I bolt on 26" slicks and putting the power down wouldn't be a problem and trap speed would be even higher...

Snap goes the Tcase

But yea, thats interesting you think you can trap 135-140mph with 450awhp, Ive never done the calculations with weight and power. If so thats cool hopefully I can track mines one day, because thats the power I project mines to be around now with this ethanol and hx40, and my dsm is not too much heavier than yours. With the passenger seat removed mines is around 2760lbs with me sitting in it, and I have another 100lbs total coming out before the years over. Anyways, Phil I think your car would be perfect with a super high compression bottom end and a Evo316g bolted on while driving it with the same amount of effort, 10s for sure...

 

[Phil1320]

Snap goes the Tcase

But yea, thats interesting you think you can trap 135-140mph with 450awhp, Ive never done the calculations with weight and power. If so thats cool hopefully I can track mines one day, because thats the power I project mines to be around now with this ethanol and hx40, and my dsm is not too much heavier than yours. With the passenger seat removed mines is around 2760lbs with me sitting in it, and I have another 100lbs total coming out before the years over. Anyways, Phil I think your car would be perfect with a super high compression bottom end and a Evo316g bolted on while driving it with the same amount of effort, 10s for sure...

I know those 26" slicks can wreak some havoc.

Well, I've done a best MPH of 116.85 with 295AWHP with a total weight of about 2575lbs. That same weight with 450 AWHP should really put MPH up there, I mean that's like a 35% increase in power which is pretty huge, and like I stated above, carfanatic 88 is running 128-130 traps with a much heavier overall weight, so I have to assume I'd be in the 130's. His car is full weight minus front and rear bumpers, he even ran stock wheels on some of his runs. I mean that car has to be making over 400 AWHP with ease, my guess is 430-460.

Based on that and what I know of my car, if the trap speeds aren't up, the ET would come way down....but I think both MPH would run up and ET would come down.....the 24.5 slick with 11 psi would surely hold some top end MPH but the 1/8 mile MPH would probably be over 100 MPH anyway...

 

[SBstar]

I think we need to get back on the 14b talk or Phil's going to be joining the Evo III crowd! Not that there's anything wrong with that of course. My engine is at the machine shop getting the once over, can't wait to get it back and put it all together to start the break-in process.

Are most of you guys sticking with the stock coolant lines to the turbo or running it oil cooled only? Any support either way?

 

[Phil1320]

I think we need to get back on the 14b talk or Phil's going to be joining the Evo III crowd! Not that there's anything wrong with that of course. My engine is at the machine shop getting the once over, can't wait to get it back and put it all together to start the break-in process.

Are most of you guys sticking with the stock coolant lines to the turbo or running it oil cooled only? Any support either way?

Don't worry, I'm not done on 14b yet. May never be! But, as the discussion goes, I'd definitely like some more pull on the top end of the track. Obviously, due to the way my car runs, it feels like I get shot out of a cannon, but, once in 4th gear it feels like the car just lays down.....and naturally. Even with my cams in place I'm sure it will still "feel" similar as the powerband really doesn't change. That may be the ticket for the guys running with SMIM and 272 cams. Even though the turbo isn't optimal at the higher RPM, it STILL makes power that pulls said cars down the track at greater speed than I can muster.

Awesome Shane, that's great! You'll have a nice basis to start with this year.

I still run coolant to my turbo and have no plans to remove those lines. I feel that is partially responsible for the long life my turbo has provided. Your choice though. In my book, if the center section was designed for coolant flow, than it should be that way.

 

[habitatguy187]

Just be sure that before you put a 16g on there you do some runs with a 7cm turbine housing first.

 

[SBstar]

I still run coolant to my turbo and have no plans to remove those lines. I feel that is partially responsible for the long life my turbo has provided. Your choice though. In my book, if the center section was designed for coolant flow, than it should be that way.

I agree with you on this one. I've done alot of reading on the subject, but figured it'd be worth discussing if anyone here thought there was some kind of gain from not running the coolant lines. Although it would clean up the engine bay a little more i doubt there is any type of gain by not running coolant through the turbo, as as you said, actually running it seems to pro-long the life of the turbo.

I'd love to see if there truly is any top-end gain from the 7cm housing on the 14b. I've always ran it and don't notice any issue with spool. I'd suppose you'd have to log back to back runs to see any differences in spool and/or airflow numbers. Those who have switched claim to feel a difference, but butt dyno's are rarely calibrated perfectly

 

[Phil1320]

Just be sure that before you put a 16g on there you do some runs with a 7cm turbine housing first.

Will do......do they need port matching or do you just throw em right on?

I agree with you on this one. I've done alot of reading on the subject, but figured it'd be worth discussing if anyone here thought there was some kind of gain from not running the coolant lines. Although it would clean up the engine bay a little more i doubt there is any type of gain by not running coolant through the turbo, as as you said, actually running it seems to pro-long the life of the turbo.

I'd love to see if there truly is any top-end gain from the 7cm housing on the 14b. I've always ran it and don't notice any issue with spool. I'd suppose you'd have to log back to back runs to see any differences in spool and/or airflow numbers. Those who have switched claim to feel a difference, but butt dyno's are rarely calibrated perfectly

Yeah, I see no point in not running it. Granted, like you say, less clutter, less coolant, less weight. But, in my opinion, not worth the tradeoff.

I'd like to see if the 7cm housing would make a difference too. At this point, someone want to donate one to the cause?

Anyway, not on my priority list right now. Any cheap gains would be great though!

 

[SBstar]

Yes you would want to port the 7cm housing. Actually the 7cm2 housing from the Evo III would be best. Either would have to be ported for optimal gains. I have the standard 7cm housing from an old Big 16g I had, ported inlet and outlet.