The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

Anyways, Phil I think your car would be perfect with a super high compression bottom end and a Evo316g bolted on while driving it with the same amount of effort, 10s for sure...

Forgot to reply to this...

.....would be awesome.....maybe someday

Yes you would want to port the 7cm housing. Actually the 7cm2 housing from the Evo III would be best. Either would have to be ported for optimal gains. I have the standard 7cm housing from an old Big 16g I had, ported inlet and outlet.

I figured...we'll see....I really think I could pull 11.20 or so with a few of these bolt ons. It all remains to be seen though. I really think intercooler is most important, or maybe the cams. I still hesitate to drop them in for some reason though. I will probably do intercooler first, make some passes and see what happens, the dyno will most likely tell the story though before I even make passes. I've pretty much aborted any changes to the intake manifold. I will still consider extrudehone though. I'm really not looking to step too far out of the box here to be honest. However, a built motor would really put me in contention for 10's on the 14b. I just don't think there's another .50 in the car with bolt-ons. Nate did mention that he believes the car could pick up .50 in ET with some simple bolt-ons, and he knows better than me, so, hell, hope he's right.

Let's open up a discussion about compressor outlet porting......I know some have done it......I'd like to talk a bit more about it and hear opinions.

 

[SBstar]

I've read differing opinions on the outlet porting. Some say being it's so close to the compressor wheel it won't make any difference as it opens up to the j-pipe within a distance that would make a difference. I can't see it hurting anything of course! I've considered polishing the entire inside of the compressor housing, but according to any opinions I could find it would be a worthwhile gesture. You would have to be so careful as to not ruin anything that you would have to do it by hand as well, which would take just short of enough time to lose the use of your hands for a couple days. If anything with the compressor outlet porting I'd do it just enough to help it merge more smoothly into the j-pipe.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah, makes sense. Again, having to be super careful and all, is it worth the time even? I'm looking to add or weed out some of these things as far as what to do for this season. So, I'm starting with all the things that seem cost effective. Then when all that's left is the big $ stuff I can decide wether or not to continue on the 14b, or drag race at all. What about clipping the turbine wheel? Opinions? Robert at FP suggested it to me years back, but, again, with roadracing in mind, I shyed away from it. I think we've got everything out on the table anyway:

-speed density
-DSMlink
-extrudehone intake
-cams
-ported compressor outlet/housing
-7cm hot side
-clipped turbine wheel
-built bottom end with higher comp/balanced full assembly
-crank scraper
-lighter rotational mass-flywheels, twin disc, drive shafts, viscous removal
-2G head/EVO 3 intake combo
-light wheels
-light brakes
-all things weight reduction
-synthetic fluids
-bigger FMIC/air/water I/C
-alternative fuels, straight meth, etc.

anything I missed?

 

[SBstar]

Just the driver mod...

Well that and what is everyone's opinions on gearings since we're going all out here. Obviously it's been believed for a while that the 24.5" tire is perfect for the gearing we're going for. But we do have the option of evo 1-3 gears in our transmissions now. I know a couple of people have stated some kind of gain from the evo 3 first gear being that it's taller. So actual first gear ideas and tire size ideas.

 

[Phil1320]

Just the driver mod...

Well that and what is everyone's opinions on gearings since we're going all out here. Obviously it's been believed for a while that the 24.5" tire is perfect for the gearing we're going for. But we do have the option of evo 1-3 gears in our transmissions now. I know a couple of people have stated some kind of gain from the evo 3 first gear being that it's taller. So actual first gear ideas and tire size ideas.

Well, thankfully the driver mod is performing at 100%.

All the rest just needs to catch up!

Trans gearing would probably be the last thing I'd ever think to change, especially when tire changes are easier, but, that's a good point.

The 24.5 seems to work well for sure, especially the first 1/8.

 

[907dsm]

Sorry to go o.t but Phil why would you go to a 2g head?? I thought 1g head has bigger ports and valves?

 

[SBstar]

Sorry to go o.t but Phil why would you go to a 2g head?? I thought 1g head has bigger ports and valves?

Bigger ports don't necessarily mean more power. The 2g port design is better as well as other advantages to the 2g head. The larger 1g ports actually have a slower velocity. Here's a taste.

Structure on the 2g head is better:
1) Lifter rail lower is tied into the upper edge of the water jacket, helping head lengthwise bending and valvetrain stiffness.
2) Material under cam bosses down to the valve pockets goes down a lot lower, creating more sectional stiffness. This increases head crosswise bending stiffness and valvetrain stiffness.
3) Internal braces across the head between the head bolts. Early 1g heads didn't have these.

Not saying for sure it's going to be a gain going to the 2g head, but it's worth looking into and possibly trying.

 

[lowell]

Evo ports are the same flange size as 2G's, and certainly don't have a problem making power. I've actually got a few 2G heads in various stages of prep that I'm going to be dyno testing at some point.

 

[907dsm]

See you learn something new everyday.. thanks alot guys.

 

[Phil1320]

Sorry to go o.t but Phil why would you go to a 2g head?? I thought 1g head has bigger ports and valves?

I will not even think of a head change unless my engine decides to go south or I have some type of catastrophic failure. If it ever happend it would be another engine as long as my original engine is still kicking.

While I've read everything about the 2G Head swap and EVO 3 intake manifold, and find it interesting and understand why it *may* be optimal for use with small turbos, it's not even on my to-do list.

While we are talking about record 14b powered passes, I've always wanted to keep my combo as simple as possible to run the numbers. I waited 5+ years to bolt on my S/S O2 housing and Tial external gate, which did make a huge difference in how well the turbo holds boost. My point is that I will sit back and watch all the others swap to the 2G head, EVO 3 intake and whatever else falls into that recipe. If they pick up power and reduce ET, then props to them. I still won't just do that swap for the heck of it. I would rather ring the 14b's neck with my basic set-up and then move on to the 16g with my same basic set-up and see how that goes.

As you might have read, as this 14b topic heats up again for 2010, I'm actually nearing the end of my quest on the stock turbo I really believe. I'm going to extract all I can out of what I have, rather than totally reconfiguring the car in order to keep chasing...well, 10.84 is the number right now. If I stay in the drag race world, I will move to the EVO 3 16g or HTA68, and that will be it. For me, at the point I'm at with the 14b, it makes more sense to spend $600-$1000 on a turbo that I can bolt right on for massive gains, then to start building engines and swapping heads. I have no plans to go any further than that and even those plans may be a bit optimistic.

 

[SBstar]

Well if you do switch to the Evo III after this, and decide to get rid of those cams, perhaps I shall claim first dibs! Provided they work out well for you this year.

Jking mostly, but cams are a pretty good piece of the argument. The fastest 14b guys have been between stock cams and straight 272 style. The guys with the larger cams have obviously been gaining higher mph, but I wonder if keeping the powerband slightly lower with Phil's Custom cams or 264 styles would be better for ET.

I think the real problem with the 2g head idea is perfecting an intake manifold. Although we've all heard great things about this Evo III manifold, no one has proven anything yet. I still want to get one, try it, then extrude hone or port it out completely to see if there are gains.

 

[Phil1320]

Well if you do switch to the Evo III after this, and decide to get rid of those cams, perhaps I shall claim first dibs! Provided they work out well for you this year.

Jking mostly, but cams are a pretty good piece of the argument. The fastest 14b guys have been between stock cams and straight 272 style. The guys with the larger cams have obviously been gaining higher mph, but I wonder if keeping the powerband slightly lower with Phil's Custom cams or 264 styles would be better for ET.

I think the real problem with the 2g head idea is perfecting an intake manifold. Although we've all heard great things about this Evo III manifold, no one has proven anything yet. I still want to get one, try it, then extrude hone or port it out completely to see if there are gains.

The cams, the cams , the cams. Yeah. I would imagine this is where I'll pick up some power for sure. I still have to get upgrade valve springs though. And, I know swapping valve springs with the head on can be tedious. Probably why I've held off so long and not purchased springs yet.

I'm not sure at WOT from the launch that the EVO 3 intake is going to be any better than the 1G to be honest, again, in on/off/partial throttle situations such that are normal in roadracing, I might say different. But, what the hell do I know? Truth is, I can only get so involved with many of these options. I don't have dynos at my immediate disposal, and don't have the time to be there for days swapping parts on and off and switching combos and retuning to see whats best. All I have is my last dyno sheet to compare to, and that's back in '07 sometime. If I make more power than I did back then, well I guess something worked then. I'm going to say that I may have a bit more power up top per Dave's chip, but, I doubt I have any more peak power as his changes are above peak power RPM. When I get the new FMIC on, I'll head back to the dyno, and then again with the cams.

Maybe a better FMIC will be the trick as I may be able to run another psi or two of boost, and of course AIT will be lower when compared with my EVO 8 core you would assume.

So, all that's really left for me on the 14b for plans:

-FMIC
-cams
-balance shaft removal
-a bit more weight reduction to counter rollbar

That's it. Simple. Wherever that leaves me with the car is most likely gonna be it. Ok, if I win the lottery tomorrow, I could add a few more mods to the list

 

[Gooberlog]

Phil i have noticed gains by swapping to a 7cm housing. I'm sure with your heat soaking EVO8 FMIC a more efficient turbine housing would help cool things a bit. Then with the addition of a better FMIC, I would imagine even more power to be had. Are you still using the Beer's Brand butt dyno for tuning or did you pick a logger at some point. Last i remember you were using a AFC and the trusty butt dyno to dial it in. Obviously this is working surprisingly well for you based on your quick E/Ts but i think that you could muster a few more ponies if you were able to push it harder as far as leaning her out.

I'm surprised that you still have the Bshafts in as well, but i keep forgetting that you have a virgin motor thats never really been operated on. This rotating mass can't hurt, not to mention another 7 lbs or so.

As for the cams, if the grind of them matches your power band goals, slap them babies in! I think i read that unless your shifting over 7500-8000rpms, the stock valve springs are ok. I know a while back we talked about this and that a tool bought online makes this job very doable with the head on the car. A friend to use a magnet to get the keepers out and put them in is very helpful though. But not much more work that doing a t-belt.

With this being said, my vote goes for the following bolt ons before you toss the towel in on 14b drag racing:
EVO3 7cm2 turbine housing
More efficient intercooler core
Poket logger ($80 for the package from the link in gvr4.org classifieds section)
Balance shaft removal kit
"on head valve spring compressor"
install cams only (if on a tighter budget) at the time of the b-shaft removal.

I really can't believe how well your car runs and you still have this many chances to improve. I really gotta say it must all come down to good driving and i disgustingly light 1g.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil i have noticed gains by swapping to a 7cm housing. I'm sure with your heat soaking EVO8 FMIC a more efficient turbine housing would help cool things a bit. Then with the addition of a better FMIC, I would imagine even more power to be had. Are you still using the Beer's Brand butt dyno for tuning or did you pick a logger at some point. Last i remember you were using a AFC and the trusty butt dyno to dial it in. Obviously this is working surprisingly well for you based on your quick E/Ts but i think that you could muster a few more ponies if you were able to push it harder as far as leaning her out.

I'm surprised that you still have the Bshafts in as well, but i keep forgetting that you have a virgin motor thats never really been operated on. This rotating mass can't hurt, not to mention another 7 lbs or so.

As for the cams, if the grind of them matches your power band goals, slap them babies in! I think i read that unless your shifting over 7500-8000rpms, the stock valve springs are ok. I know a while back we talked about this and that a tool bought online makes this job very doable with the head on the car. A friend to use a magnet to get the keepers out and put them in is very helpful though. But not much more work that doing a t-belt.

With this being said, my vote goes for the following bolt ons before you toss the towel in on 14b drag racing:
EVO3 7cm2 turbine housing
More efficient intercooler core
Poket logger ($80 for the package from the link in gvr4.org classifieds section)
Balance shaft removal kit
"on head valve spring compressor"
install cams only (if on a tighter budget) at the time of the b-shaft removal.

I really can't believe how well your car runs and you still have this many chances to improve. I really gotta say it must all come down to good driving and i disgustingly light 1g.

Trav--my last dyno session was in '07. I have made small adjustments with the AFC at the track based on what the wideband reads. Obviously, the reading changes with drastic ambient air changes. Other than that, I don't touch anything. The pocket logger would be cool. So I won't be as Nate put it, "flying blind" or something like that.

Isn't the EVO 3 7cm housing like 4 lbs. lighter than the standard one? Hell, I'll put it on for that alone!!!

My cams are "X" model as in FP1X and so I was told to run better valve springs. They are specific to the 14b powerband, these are not the off the shelf FP1X. They are some "early" prototype cams. I don't know if its the extra lift or ramp speed, or both, but, either way, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I saw that pneumo had a set for sale, but he had a "sale pending" listed next to them so I missed out on those. But, I think I can afford some springs here soon.

I'll do the b-shaft removal for sure.

The Extrudehone intake would be the last "bolt-on" mod I'll consider. But, I'm guessing power for dollar is low here. It's just a matter of it being something I could try that doesn't involve opening the engine up.

Will definitely do better FMIC core or kit. That's a no brainer. I think my current makeshift FMIC kit would be great for a street driven 16-18 psi 14b car.

Been looking at Kirkey Drag race seats and new harness options too. Will narrow that down soon.

You're right, there are still many improvements that can me made that are within reach and/or I have the parts for already.

Thanks Trav. Overall, I couldn't ask more out of this car or combination. It does run strong considering some of the basics(b-shaft removal)that most people do, have not been done. Like I said elsewhere, any gains and reduction in ET from here on out are just gravy. 3.36 seconds reduction in 1/4 ET and still going, without a turbo change. I'm way more than satisfied. We'll see how much further I can stretch it!

Will need to wait til it warms back up now to work on the car. I probably won't be out early this year, mid-late summer most likely.

Oh yeah, Beers Brand was bought out by Dynojet......I still use it without them knowing though, so don't tell anyone.....

 

[Nate Crisman]

Few updates on my 14b setup;

Picked up a set of 9.5lb Volk wheels (15x7" CE28N's) off a GVR4 parts car this last week. Two of them were dented and needed repair, the one shown below needed welding after the lip cracked. So they aren't really nice enough to sell, but they sure would make a set of good dragstrip wheels! I'll still turn a big profit on the partout, so I can pretty much consider these a free set of Volks, other than the trade Im going to give the buddy who repaired & welded them.

In order to use them, Im going to have to put 4lug GVR4 hubs onto the 1g, no big deal, but strange. Im sure there's a little bit of weight loss from dropping one lug and nut too. I suppose now I need to decide on gearing/powerband since I can buy 15" slicks in all kinds of diameters from 23" up to 28"

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Friday I shot about $350 at JNZ for misc engine gaskets, a mitsu metal HG (damn things are $113 now), a forward facing oil filter housing, and some SS manifold studs. I'm planning to start assembling the engine next weekend and start cleaning up the car late Feb.

Today I snagged an old style 7cm turbine housing from my buddy Brent @ JMF. Came on some old blown Mutt turbo, setup for external wastegate o2 housing. That was an awesome find since it was laying in his shed. Now I need to pickup an o2 housing w/ external.


Few more pics of the car:
I'm planning to ditch the pass seat & harness and re-do some of the dash/interior. But for a while at least, I want to keep the interior looking somewhat normal. There is honestly maybe 20lb of interior plastic and carpet and Im beginning to think that the effort required to build an aluminum dash and door panels, buy a tach, and redo wiring to look sanitary is beyond the 20lb weight savings. I'v got to take most of it out in order to sort through the wiring, so Ill weight it all and make the decision later.

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[Gooberlog]

Few updates on my 14b setup;

Picked up a set of 9.5lb Volk wheels (15x7" CE28N's) off a GVR4 parts car this last week. Two of them were dented and needed repair, the one shown below needed welding after the lip cracked. So they aren't really nice enough to sell, but they sure would make a set of good dragstrip wheels! I'll still turn a big profit on the partout, so I can pretty much consider these a free set of Volks, other than the trade Im going to give the buddy who repaired & welded them.

In order to use them, Im going to have to put 4lug GVR4 hubs onto the 1g, no big deal, but strange. Im sure there's a little bit of weight loss from dropping one lug and nut too. I suppose now I need to decide on gearing/powerband since I can buy 15" slicks in all kinds of diameters from 23" up to 28"

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Friday I shot about $350 at JNZ for misc engine gaskets, a mitsu metal HG (damn things are $113 now), a forward facing oil filter housing, and some SS manifold studs. I'm planning to start assembling the engine next weekend and start cleaning up the car late Feb.

Today I snagged an old style 7cm turbine housing from my buddy Brent @ JMF. Came on some old blown Mutt turbo, setup for external wastegate o2 housing. That was an awesome find since it was laying in his shed. Now I need to pickup an o2 housing w/ external.


Few more pics of the car:
I'm planning to ditch the pass seat & harness and re-do some of the dash/interior. But for a while at least, I want to keep the interior looking somewhat normal. There is honestly maybe 20lb of interior plastic and carpet and Im beginning to think that the effort required to build an aluminum dash and door panels, buy a tach, and redo wiring to look sanitary is beyond the 20lb weight savings. I'v got to take most of it out in order to sort through the wiring, so Ill weight it all and make the decision later.

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I think i removed 12 pounds just from removing the padding and wood from the bottom of my 1g carpet.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I think i removed 12 pounds just from removing the padding and wood from the bottom of my 1g carpet.

The carpet is just the thin layer, all padding and sound deadening is gone.

The dash and console are just the outer plastics zip tied in place, there is no metal behind there at all. Basically, behind the dash is hollow other than the pedals, steering column, engine wiring harness, and the wiring for the oem gauges, turn signals, and lights. The sheetmetal bracing that holds up the dash, ecu, console, and the heat/ac stuff has been trashed. Pic of under the dash on pass side (fisheye lens, camera laying on floor pointing up):

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In spring of 2005 when we built this as a "shop car", the interior was out. we culled the wiring and removed about 20lb of un-needed stuff. We were pretty good about chopping weight, and only put back lightweight plastic or thin carpet to make it look decent. Hence why there is no glove box or drivers knee pad (steel inserts).

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The doors are already gutted, but enough inner skin left to have functioning roll up windows, factory door handles/locks, and mounting points for the oem interior panel.

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Like I said, Ill go through the interior and wiring again this spring, weigh everything, then come to a decision with real #'s if ditching what's left of the interior is worth the weight loss. Im sure I could rewire the whole car and get another few lb out of the harnesses. ditching the remaining interior is worth something to go sheet alum dash/doors and metal floor. Right now, Im thinking my limited time/money is better spent elsewhere (fabbing an alum/lexan hatch, building a motor, and hunting the net for cheap slicks)

 

[Gooberlog]

Wow Nate, That's how it's done!

 

[emo1010]

Hey everyone, Im getting back into the dsm game again and have been reading this thread and thought I put my $.02 awhile back a friend(tealtalon) and I did a 14b car that put down some decent times before we got rid of it. Here is a list of what we had done to the car.

Here is a quick list of what the car had.
BASICS & SUSPENSION
90 fwd laser
It was completly gutted
sparco race seat
5 point harness
painless wiring control box(ie power switchs)
Stock 6bolt(sans the balance shafts)
stock trans.(open dif)
kyb gr2's with ebay coil overs
ploy. motor mounts
22" slicks
14b
2G manifold


MODS
1 gallon fuel cell filled w/ c16
-8 an feed to rail -6an return
aeromotive fuel ps reg.
450cc injectors
walbro 255 extranl fuel pump
Maft translator
gm 3" maf and translator.
super afc
pwr 8" liquid to air I/c
ebay o2 housing modified to use external gate
ebay external gate w/17psi spring
2.5 to 3" exhaust
aluminum fly wheel
act 2600 6 puck un sprung.

As far as weight savings we unbolted every thing! if it could be removed and wasn't need to run the car it came out . Tunning was really basic just an maft and afc c-16 and lots of boost(25lbs) we had 550's in it at first but found that we were getting a little too much timing when adjusting for them with afc and maft and went back to 450's. Our best time was 11.76@113

here is the video of the run
YouTube - Laser 11.76@113

 

[pneumo]

Good work emo! You got well into the 11's with a moderate mods list and moderate investment. And plenty of labor.

 

[emo1010]

Thanks, your times are way impressive too. Im not sure what the setup or weight of your car is but with the extra weight of awd that is awesome!

Our set up was super cheap, the driveline was one I had out of a car that I wreaked,( I only piad 700 for it though) the body was one a buddy of ours had laying around and gave to us, the afc the org 550's we had, the boost, oil water temp gauges, and a couple other small things were all parts we just had laying around. Including the 700 i paid for the "donor" car we had just over 3k in to it.

 

[habitatguy187]

Emo1010 what was your 60' time?

 

[Phil1320]

Wow Nate, That's how it's done!

Yeah, it's coming along!

Thanks, your times are way impressive too. Im not sure what the setup or weight of your car is but with the extra weight of awd that is awesome!

Our set up was super cheap, the driveline was one I had out of a car that I wreaked,( I only piad 700 for it though) the body was one a buddy of ours had laying around and gave to us, the afc the org 550's we had, the boost, oil water temp gauges, and a couple other small things were all parts we just had laying around. Including the 700 i paid for the "donor" car we had just over 3k in to it.

That' s pretty impressive! Too bad you still don't have the car for this year!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Our set up was super cheap, the driveline was one I had out of a car that I wreaked,( I only piad 700 for it though) the body was one a buddy of ours had laying around and gave to us, the afc the org 550's we had, the boost, oil water temp gauges, and a couple other small things were all parts we just had laying around. Including the 700 i paid for the "donor" car we had just over 3k in to it.

This is the best totally in the spirit of 14b racing. Tossing a car together with stuff laying around from other projects, junkyard parts, and donner cars.

I'd love to hear more about this car, what you were getting for 60's, your impressions on tuning/power/boost with the 14b, pretty much anything you want to divulge. I would also love to see any pics you have, especially of the fuel cell.

Yeah, it's coming along!

Hahaha All that I'v done is collect parts and get the shell home. No work has been done yet.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I got a weight reduction idea for you guys... Find a old mid 90s mirage for cheap with a blown motor and do a 4g63T awd conversion on it. i was considering going mirage for a long time, especially for the sleeperness of it, and the fact it puts the car a little under 2600lbs w/ the swap done before doing any weight reduction. A 2300lb awd car with 350all wheel e316g HP, stock motor, running tens consistently without enough power to start breaking shit, and still daily driver status! Ok back on topic, Emo nice run, I seen your vid a long time ago! Cheap and quick, thats where dsm got its fame from! A lot of us get too woo'd into doing these expensive high end builds with sometimes not much better results, makes one question is it even worth it when you can go 11s for so cheap w/ less hassle...