The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[jking29]

So is this thread basically focusing on race gas times?

Personally, I'm more interested in seeing what the lil' 14B can do on good old 91-93oct pump gas.

What's the point? It's relatively easy to get a 14b into the 13's, and 12's with a good front mount or meth. But, you will never find the full potential of a 14b without race gas or e-85. You have to run it to the far end, or off the map, and it just blows too hot of air.

 

[SBstar]

So is this thread basically focusing on race gas times?

Personally, I'm more interested in seeing what the lil' 14B can do on good old 91-93oct pump gas.

If I had to estimate I'd bet you can get it into the high 12's on 93. But as said above, it's not really a pump gas race, if you want to get the full potential out of it, throw some good fuel in there.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, looks like I am going to enter the fray again. I cut a deal tonight to get my yellow 1g back, and 14B will be the first turbo going on. I'v got some ideas in my head of what the setup might be, and where I can save more weight since it's going to be a trailer car.

I'm thinking of doing a small fuel cell in the front: 2 pumps, 2 rails, 8 mid size injectors, sunoco methanol. Tune with DS-Map speed density.
No intercooler. sheetmetal intake manifold mostly to facilitate the second fuel rail and direct port nitrous.
stock shortblock sans BS shafts and oil cooler. self-port head. likely stock 91 cams.
Stick trans w/ welded center, act2600 & 6puck unsprung disk, 4 bolt rear.
The car already has GC coilovers on KYB AGX's, all poly bushings, welded trailing arms, new brakes, SS lines.
going to run the 16" hooser QTP's from my GVR4.


Pics from the current owners' garage. I'm going to pick the car up in a few weeks once I buy a trailer.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

What it used to look like back in 2005 when I last had it together:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[pneumo]

Good luck, Nate!
So you're going to control 8 injectors with DS-Map? I think you'll be the first. More info, please.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Good luck, Nate!
So you're going to control 8 injectors with DS-Map? I think you'll be the first. More info, please.

I believe kiggly did it many years ago by running 2 injectors per cyl electrically in series with the stock ballast resistor removed. I assume one needs to measure resistance of the ballast resister and the additional injector and be sure they are either "close enough" or add in a new ballast resistor of less value so that the new total resistance is still the same as the oem ballast. My guess is that the stock ecu's injector driver cannot handle too much current.

One of my thoughts on this is the best method of pickling the fuel system after each track day (running gasoline or a bit to wash out the methanol). Running a small fuel cell up front will make draining/filling quicker and less wasteful. Just not looking forward to having to laptop load a new map file to switch fuels just to idle through the pits a bit and drive onto the trailer. Maybe if the dual map feature of dsmap eventually works, that could fill the niche.

My thoughts on running the car on methanol would be the chemical cooling would allow deleting the intercooler all together which saves weight, money, and pressure loss. That's not to say I wouldn't do it simply just to say I did it.

As for cost, Im going to be on a VERY strict budget and will likely end up building the car with leftovers from my DSMpartout business. That being said, I have access to tons of stock 450's and 550cc injectors. But large "meth size" injectors aren't as expensive as they used to be, so it might be even cost doing 8 small injectors vs 4 large ones. As for DS-Map tuning, you would tune the car just like you would tune a set of 1100cc injectors either way. It would be awesome if the stock ecu could somehow grow 4 more drivers and control them separately and run them staged, but Im pretty sure that's out of the scope of "free software". hahaha

 

[SBstar]

Full methanol on a 14b, 8 injectors, no intercooler. Who would've thought a few years back we'd be discussing crazy things like that eh. I always thought that car was pretty sweet Nate, good to see it back in your hands.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Full methanol on a 14b, 8 injectors, no intercooler. Who would've thought a few years back we'd be discussing crazy things like that eh. I always thought that car was pretty sweet Nate, good to see it back in your hands.

It's going to take something pretty crazy to chase down a 2210lb laser. I'm planning for my AWD/stick car to be in the 2600 range with driver, meaning Im going to have to 60' a full 2 tenths faster just to match Bucci's 1.62 range. Consistently 60'-ing in the mid 1.4's shouldn't be TOO much trouble, but a 1.42 to 1.39 is going to take some magic. Im not sure he can be beat with the awd 60' advantage alone unless I can make more power. It's going to take both IMHO to get it done.

Joe only ran a 60shot of nitrous, so I have no doubt in my mind the w/NOS record will be attainable. I'm not above putting 150 jets in a 4 port kit and the instant torque from a big nitrous kit is usable with 4 slicks/awd in first 2 gears, where the FWD likely wouldn't be able to hold that down. My gut tells me a perfectly driven 14b/nitrous setup could do 10.3's in the weight Im planning for.

Im more worried about figuring out how to overcome the 400lb advantage without nitrous. Especially since I'm not planning to run any crazy compression or cams. Maybe Methanol will be one slight advantage, but Joe had a pretty ideal combo and there isn't any magic bullet to get significant power from a fully tapped out 14b.

 

[SBstar]

I don't know, seems like if you built a motor and threw enough nitrous at it, it wouldn't take much to beat the w/nitrous record. Doing it the way you're doing it, actually trying to use the turbo, might be a little more difficult actually. I'm sure you remember the 2g with the T-25 running 10.69. Essentially they use the turbo at stock boost levels and throw a bunch of nitrous at it. Here's a link to a bit of info on it, not to take this thread off course.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/132183-11-1xx-t-25-a.html

Seems like doing the same thing here would net even better results being the turbo wouldn't be "as big a restriction as the T25".

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, kinda the same thing, but Im going to make an attempt at both with and without nitrous records. So Im going to push the 14b/engine setup as hard as I can then dump a lot of nitrous on top of that. Then move into the E3-16G if things go well.

That 2g is ultra cool to me since he did this stuff so long ago and the T25 is a big pile of poop, moreso than the 14B by far.

Right upfront though...Im planning to run the 7cm turbine housing right from the start, preferably the new style Evo3 style since it's 5lb lighter. Bucci went 140mph on that housing....same exhaust wheel as a 14b. In theory, if the turbine housing is the exhaust restriction, a 14b/nitrous combo should be able to do the same 140mph. You just use more nitrous to make up for the difference between 14b and E3-16G compressor flow. In the end the exhaust side is exactly the same regardless.

 

[jking29]

I too am going to try and go after Bucci's record next year, and had a thought at work tonight. How many of you that are shooting to go fast on the 14b will be taking their cars to the shootout next year? It would be crazy if we could get enough of us to fill a class up, say something like a 14b eliminator class. A heads up, run what you brung class with the only rules being something like a 14b and no nitrous. What do you guys think?

 

[SBstar]

Good luck getting Dave to go along with it. But it certainly would be fun. I'd definately be up for it, even though my plans are just to get into the mid 12's for next year, I'd still run.

Nate, kinda poured over my last post and I guess I kinda didn't word that right. I didn't mean to make it sound "easy" as there is still a lot that goes into a setup like that. I wish you the best in your pursuit. Like I always share with Phil, it's nice to see you older guys who started this craze doing well and taking up the charge again. You guys deserve the respect for getting all of us interested!

 

[Nate Crisman]

I too am going to try and go after Bucci's record next year, and had a thought at work tonight. How many of you that are shooting to go fast on the 14b will be taking their cars to the shootout next year? It would be crazy if we could get enough of us to fill a class up, say something like a 14b eliminator class. A heads up, run what you brung class with the only rules being something like a 14b and no nitrous. What do you guys think?

Shootout: Stock Appearing used to be the class for us. There were always 16G cars, but often not many serious entries. I bought this car in 2004 to run stock appearing with a 14b and stock sidemount. It went 11.9 @ 111, but tossed a Tbelt on saturday on the road driving it to buschur's shop. The stock appearing class that year was won by a high 12 second 16g car.

I'd be cool to go run stock appearing.

 

[Phil1320]

You can port it all you want but unless you get it machined where the turbine wheel sits you can never get it as big as a 7cm housing. You will notice a difference, period. But, that's getting away from the stock turbo IMO, so whether or not you want to do it is all up to you.

Yes, I've been told this, and I don't doubt the gain over the 6cm, but, IS IT ENOUGH OF A GAIN TO PRODUCE A DIFFERENCE IN MY TIMESLIP?. That is the question.

Phil, I definitely think a 7cm housing would be worthwhile to you. Plenty more flow per psi. Plus they're like $50. When I switched over to external wg and 7cm housing on a 14b at some point, it made a huge difference.
I see some high horse 16g guys say they gained some airflow and topend power by switching to an FP manifold.

I would try it for sure for that cheap, do you port on top of that, or just bolt it up? I already have a 40mm Tial on a S/S O2 housing, and have the FP mani already....it's brilliant....

Stock 2G Maf FTW!



Phil from my experience i always noticed the gains from swaping in a ported 7cm housing from a STOCK 14b 6cm. Not sure if the gains would be noticeable since you already ported out the 6cm but for around $50 i would try it.

A mild increase in the cams could make a world of difference i would immagine as the 14b is quite weak on the top end. If you got em, run em! I have a "head on car" valve spring compressor and i replaced valve seals on my old white talon with it and it's not too bad. Have a buddy stand by to use a magnet to get your valve keepers from dropping. From what i've read on the forums, if you aren't planning on revving past 8k rpms, the stock valve train should be fine. I know you don't want to pull that head and open a can a of worms

And i'm sure if your heat soaking the EVO8 FMIC core, that would probably net your biggest difference. I mean damn, you pretty much did EVERYTHING else, except getting reallllll crazy with the weight reduction.

Well, someone point me in the direction of a 7cm housing and I'll pick it up!

The cams I have are not going to swing the powerband up at all, they were made FOR THE 14B powerband and they are "X" models and that's why I was told by FP to run upgrade springs, which I don't have yet. And, no, I don't want to pull the head, and that's probably why I haven't thrown the cams in yet. But, with everyone coming out of the woodwork on 14b's for 2010, I may have to do some things I don't want to do in order to keep up! I'd agree on the intercooler as the biggest gain. Even with a bit more weight reduciton, the car is really at it's lightest now, before the rollbar. So, the weight game is pretty much over, which has been one of my easy answers to more speed over the years. Now, it's really just make more power. I refuse to do a lexan windshield and a 1 gallon fuel cell. A fuel cell, yes. But, minimum 10 gallon. I just don't think there will be enough weight to come out of the car to overcome the added weight of the rollbar.

Didn't he say 2300lbs w/ driver?

Phil you should do a weight reduction thread or blog, just with tons of pictures and stuff. I think you have the lightest awd I've ever heard of besides guys like Shep.

That would be cool actually.....I think my car might have been or still is lighter than Shep's...without rollbar....and Shep had lots of interior in his car too....and heavier turbo set up and all....

....I'm sure mine is one of the lightest out there.....I think Extreme's car with full lexan weighed in right about 2300 with a full cage......my car weighed in at 2400 on the nose at my first outing this year....11.75....so with me it was a total race weight of about 2606....

At the second and third outings, I estimated the car at 2335 lbs. for a total race weight of 2541 lbs.......

well, looks like i am going to enter the fray again. I cut a deal tonight to get my yellow 1g back, and 14b will be the first turbo going on. I'v got some ideas in my head of what the setup might be, and where i can save more weight since it's going to be a trailer car.

I'm thinking of doing a small fuel cell in the front: 2 pumps, 2 rails, 8 mid size injectors, sunoco methanol. Tune with ds-map speed density.
No intercooler. Sheetmetal intake manifold mostly to facilitate the second fuel rail and direct port nitrous.
Stock shortblock sans bs shafts and oil cooler. Self-port head. Likely stock 91 cams.
Stick trans w/ welded center, act2600 & 6puck unsprung disk, 4 bolt rear.
The car already has gc coilovers on kyb agx's, all poly bushings, welded trailing arms, new brakes, ss lines.
Going to run the 16" hooser qtp's from my gvr4.

awesome!

It's going to take something pretty crazy to chase down a 2210lb laser. I'm planning for my AWD/stick car to be in the 2600 range with driver, meaning Im going to have to 60' a full 2 tenths faster just to match Bucci's 1.62 range. Consistently 60'-ing in the mid 1.4's shouldn't be TOO much trouble, but a 1.42 to 1.39 is going to take some magic. Im not sure he can be beat with the awd 60' advantage alone unless I can make more power. It's going to take both IMHO to get it done.


Im more worried about figuring out how to overcome the 400lb advantage without nitrous. Especially since I'm not planning to run any crazy compression or cams. Maybe Methanol will be one slight advantage, but Joe had a pretty ideal combo and there isn't any magic bullet to get significant power from a fully tapped out 14b.

No doubt......a 2210lb. FWD Laser at that. That's why I've said, I can see his 1/8 mile times being beat by an AWD(6.9) but the 1/4 ET is going to be tough.
I ran 1.48 to a 7.27 1/8, so I'm off 3 tenths. Even a 1.40 60' might have netted a 7.20-7.25 which is still a ways off.

Power is it. And no matter what the combo- EVO 3 intake/2G head whatever, no matter how light, there might not be enough power available in the AWD configuration to overcome driveline losses and weight disadvantage, to hit 10.84----with METH, maybe.

Even if someone could match Joe B's weight in an AWD, I think he gets beat to the 1/8, but, pulls by at the top of the track.

126+ MPH. Noone on a 14b is anywhere near him. Pneumo traps 118 and that is the closest anyone has come, at more than a half a second disadvantage through the traps. That's a HUGE gap to overcome. Meth will probably be the ticket.....just as it was the ticket for John Shepherd to take it to no man's land in the 7's.

Personally, I'd rather see it done on gas, but, that may not be an option, and I really don't think it will be. I think it will take 350-375 AWHP to be able to come close to the 10's, this in a lightened car. No full race weights up near 3000, it's probably not gonna happen. With that, I don't think 350-375 AWHP is possible without thinking outside the box...i.e. meth etc.

But, I'm looking for someone to oppose that, and make it happen!

I too am going to try and go after Bucci's record next year, and had a thought at work tonight. How many of you that are shooting to go fast on the 14b will be taking their cars to the shootout next year? It would be crazy if we could get enough of us to fill a class up, say something like a 14b eliminator class. A heads up, run what you brung class with the only rules being something like a 14b and no nitrous. What do you guys think?

Good luck!

Not sure about shootout...

That would be a cool class for sure!

Good luck getting Dave to go along with it. But it certainly would be fun. I'd definately be up for it, even though my plans are just to get into the mid 12's for next year, I'd still run.

Exactly my thought. He always shunned gutted out cars and referred to them as "Gutted out POS's." I actually ran a bracket class in '98 instead of Stock Appearing, although I had full interior. I went back to the Shootout in '04 and just ran some passes in my '90 Laser, but that's it. I never brought my Talon back for the reasons stated above.....and that it wouldn' fit in a class other than DS Eliminator. Basically, he pushed gutted out cars out of competition. Discriminated against, whatever you want to call it. So, my interest in the shootout has been minimal. There's other reasons as well, but who care's, it's trivial.

Great idea, probably for a different shootout.

Shootout: Stock Appearing used to be the class for us. There were always 16G cars, but often not many serious entries. I bought this car in 2004 to run stock appearing with a 14b and stock sidemount. It went 11.9 @ 111, but tossed a Tbelt on saturday on the road driving it to buschur's shop. The stock appearing class that year was won by a high 12 second 16g car.

I'd be cool to go run stock appearing.

I can pull the drivetrain out of my talon and toss it in the Galant and that would pass in the Stock Appearing class, but that's alot of work for nothing I guess, I do wonder what the Galant would run with that set up. No, I'm not serious, just a for instance. So your Yellow car passed for Stock Appearing? No kidding.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Phil: that's one heck of a long post, I don't dare quote it!

Regarding Joe Bucci's FWD/weight/traps and 1/8 vs 1/4 theory:
He is trapping 126 due to combined nearly ideal engine power and super light weight. Neither you nor pneumo are getting both ends of the candle lit completely:

Pneumo looks to have likely made the most power with a 14b, but is running that engine combo in a heavy street car. If his car dropped 400lb and mounted 4 slicks, he would likely pick up 4+ mph putting him within striking range.

Your running a very stock engine combo in a lightweight car. I honestly think you could pick up a real 40-50hp putting you in the high 10's @ 120mph. Your still running stock cams, intake manifold, 6cm housing, stock crank pully, stock flywheel. Your also flying blind on the tuning without a datalogger or wideband, so logically, there has to be some power left on the table from not running the tune on the ragged edge.

I'm not knocking either one of you at all, both cars are super impressive. both of you are working within realistic limitations..with Pneumo the car being street driven and you making considerations for future road coarse use and keeping the engine untouched. Both of you have budget concerns like everyeone else to deal with.

All Im saying is that as of yet, no one has come close to matching the total effort that Bucci has put out. His engine program is likely at 95% as good as it's going to get without nitrous and on gasonline. his weight and driveline efficiency is honestly damn near perfect. Anyone seriously trying to get the record is going to have to take on both at once.

An AWD 1g that's stripped and gutted exactly the same as Bucci's FWD should weigh 2400lb or less.
AWD trans is about 35lb heavier than FWD
Xcase is 34lb (the all aluminum 22 spline version is only 26lb)
Driveshaft is about 25-30lb (I haven't weighted one)
The rear diff/axles/subframe I would guestimate at 85lb heavier than the beam axle fwd setup
Rear tires/wheels should be about 15lb heavier than the pizza cutter slicks Bucci runs in back.
Total difference should be in the 175-200lb range. If someone put enough effort into weight with an awd car, with an equal engine output, the AWD 60' advantage should best the 200lb and frictional loss.

Granted, I haven't really seen lots of detailed photos of your car to evaluate where you could lose more weight, but just off the top of my head:
your running heavy wheels. 4 Weld 15x8 drag wheels could save you 20lb of rotating weight...HUGE. You could save in engine parts: SMIM saves 7lb, aluminum flywheel saves 15+, twin disk clutch. aluminum crank pulley. A 1gal fuel cell, short lines, and only carrying 1gal of fuel down the track will save big weight compared to the steel tank w/ 3 gallons or so of fuel. I assume you still run a 90 oil cooler and lines. Your running a cast exhaust manifold instead of a lighter tube header. You could save 5lb using the lighter Evo3 turbine housing. Is your center diff welded? if so you can eliminate the viscous coupling with a sleeve and save a good 8lb of rotating weight.

As for power, everyone is leaving something on the table. I haven't seen any electric water pumps around? Noone is running methanol yet. I haven't seen anyone go nuts on rotational weight within the engine (knife'd crank, alum flywheel and light clutch & disk, crank pulley). Has anyone really spent time to dial in adjustable cam gears? There is for sure power left to be had from everyone doing this.

When it comes down to AWD 60' traction vs FWD drivetrain loss going down the track, I have to think the advantage goes back to AWD. With identical power levels and identical weight loss (only 200lb difference due to AWD parts): I think the 2 tenths on the launch has to be worth more ET than the loss the extra drivetrain creates.

One last point: I believe Bucci was quoting that 2210 figure before the rollbar went in. That's 80lb for the rollbar.


Getting to the point: I entirely believe someone that puts the exact same effort into an AWD 1g will be quicker than project goodwill. I do not believe that FWD is the ideal platform and he is only the fastest because he has put in the most effort. Joe Bucci would have gone quicker had he found a 90 talon awd at the goodwill junkyard instead of a 90 laser fwd.


Onto the shootout stuff:

In 2004, when I had intent on running Stock Appearing in Ohio, my car still had 2 seats, carpet, door panels, all the interior plastics, a full dash and console. It looked like a streetcar inside. Only thing missing was the headliner (I broke it while taking apart to paint the car and fix the bullet hole correctly). The stock appearing rules were basically limiting the engine parts to 14b/16g style turbo, no fmic, no external gate, no smim, no nitrous. Cars with rollbars were always exempt from needing interior behind the front seats. Basically, my car was/is perfectly fine for stock appearing. Yours would be if you put back in about 40lb worth of interior, ditched the fmic and external gate. I'm not sure if rules changed since 04..maybe not as restrictive anymore. the fmic I think should be allowed now adays.

I found the 2009 Stock Appearing rules. Looks like they have changed significantly since 2004.

DSM STOCK APPEARING (DSA) Sponsored by Forced Performance
**Class winner will get a FP18G6SL2 turbocharger! This is a $699 value.

-Heads up class. Pro Tree. LANE 1
-Any 1990-1999 Talon, Eclipse, Laser or Galant VR4
-Full interior required. Full exhaust required. NO nitrous. DOT RADIAL TIRE ONLY. NO tread wear rating limits.
-FMIC's OK but must fit without any visable cutting of the front fascia, i/c pipes allowed with FMIC's. NO external wastegates. NO sheetmetal intakes. NO air to water intercoolers. Stock location headers OK. COP ignition OK. Any BOV allowed. Sheetmetal 02 housings and external wastegate dumps OK. Turbos must remain stock appearing except for the 2g DSM which can upgrade to the TD05H apearing turbos. No aftermarket fuel pressure regulators. No aftermarket fuel rails. Stock fuel filter and fuel lines. No visible alcohol injection bottles. Power steering and A/C delete is OK but it has to be done NICELY. No half radiators.
-Open element air filter OK for speed density conversions but must be done neatly and retain stock position of air filter.
-All participants in this class will qualify, time trial and race from lane #1.
-On your windshield you will put in large print DSA followed by the number from your tech card.

Issues for me:
Im running bias ply hoosiers. You need BFG drag radials
My front bumper cover is cut...you can guess how hard it would be to find another uncut yellow one!

The other stuff could easily be switched over...I could stick a stock gas tank in and run stock lines. I could use a stock intake manifold. I still have the full interior of the car.

In the end, is one race worth all that effort. I certainly wouldn't go buy a set of tires and paint a bumper just to get into this class to win a $700 turbo (that I wouldn't use anyway)

Honestly, I'd go and try to qualify for something crazy...go make 3 qualifying passes for Q16. Show everyone the car and have some fun.


On another note....I could see about maybe getting Englishtown to giving us a class at the Mitsubishi Showdown next season. This year they had street 16 and quick 16 and a stock appearing class, but again, our cars are to crazy for the stock class. They might be willing to run a "dinky turbo" class or something if we get enough cars, even if it's just for exhibition and bragging rights.

 

[Phil1320]

"All Im saying is that as of yet, no one has come close to matching the total effort that Bucci has put out."

I totally agree, that is for sure.

Also, I have ACT flywheel, lighter underdrive crank pulley, and the Driveshaft Shop aluminum driveshaft. So, I have a few things. But, the engine itself still has the balance shafts. A twin disc clutch was mentioned to me at one point, but for the $, no thanks!

"Pneumo looks to have likely made the most power with a 14b, but is running that engine combo in a heavy street car. If his car dropped 400lb and mounted 4 slicks, he would likely pick up 4+ mph putting him within striking range."

So, you think he's made more power than Joe B.? If that is true, and unless I haven't seen a dyno sheet, that makes 324 AWHP the highest ever on the 14b. I would peg Joe's car at a solid 350 HP at the front wheels..........so that's questionable.....even if he makes less then Dave at the engine, more might make it to the ground. But, now that I think about it, if I had Dave's power in my car......not sure if it would tip into the 10's, but maybe 11.0-11.1...

"I honestly think you could pick up a real 40-50hp putting you in the high 10's @ 120mph."

Now, that would be sick.....

" Your also flying blind on the tuning without a datalogger or wideband, so logically, there has to be some power left on the table from not running the tune on the ragged edge."

You're right......kinda sucks......but.......it's all I've ever done!

"I haven't seen any electric water pumps around?"

Funny you mention this....I have a killer kit from a friend of mine that was built for the SR20.....car was stolen and kit obviously was never installed. All it would need is a custom plate for the water pump mount. Wasn't going to say anything, but hey, it's all out in the open now!

Anyway, yes, cast manifold, and yes, oil cooler is still in place. No welded center diff. There's definitely more weight to lose. But, until I abort the thought of the road course, some of it must stay for now.


"Getting to the point: I entirely believe someone that puts the exact same effort into an AWD 1g will be quicker than project goodwill"


Agreed. Project Goodwill was a purpose built machine almost from the start. I'm on the gradual scale with my car. But, maybe it's time to stop screwing around and drop the hammer. Sounds nice, but, it's alot easier said than done. That type of effort requires some decent money spending of which I can't facilitate at this time. So, I will be really interested to see what you and these other contenders come up with, and I will continue my long journey.......kinda like the tortoise and the hare story......slow to get there, but, I'll get there.

 

[SBstar]

Wow, those are the best thoughts put out there yet! I think we've all thought about how crazy we could get, but that's the first time I've seen it verbalized on the forums. The truth is, I think a very high percentage of us, are just doing this for fun on a budget. When you start to get that involved it is every bit as costly as a larger turbo setup (ok maybe minus a few bucks). This is the biggest part of the reason I no longer have a goal of being the fastest. I know I'll never be able to put enough money into it to keep up with the big boys. I'd sure like too, but it just isn't going to happen! I agree 100% with what you're saying and all of it will help me reach my goals in the future so I appreciate it. But what's scary is Joe could've made the car lighter yet, and probably could've found a little bit more power (Still on a 2g exhaust mani, internal wastegate, stock 7.8:1 pistons?)

BTW, the stock appearing class is gone anyways, Buschur did away with it after this year. But if there ever is a small turbo class somewhere i'm down!

For a little bit of info on tuning and the liquid to air intercooler. Joe claimed a gain of .4 after adding those two mods together. That's a pretty good jump from what was already a quick car on such a small turbo. Something to consider for those going crazy, standalone and liquid to air intercooler will make a pretty big difference for those going in a straight line for 1/4 mile only.

Also of note for the "budget" minded like myself. Joe claimed a total of $1800 into the car to hit 11's, $5550 to hit 10's.

Not to change the subject at all, but I did suggest the "small frame TDO5H" class to Buschur on his forums. If you care to chime in at all go ahead. He pretty much shot it down, as I expected, but if we could get some support I suppose it's still possible.

http://highboostforum.com/forum/sho...class-Small-frame-turbo-s&p=156820#post156820

 

[Phil1320]

"But what's scary is Joe could've made the car lighter yet, and probably could've found a little bit more power (Still on a 2g exhaust mani, internal wastegate, stock 7.8:1 pistons?"

He's got Arias 9:1 pistons and an FP Race Manifold...he was the first with this manifold......not sure if he had this mani with the 14b though, maybe just the 16g then?

"Not to change the subject at all, but I did suggest the "small frame TDO5H" class to Buschur on his forums. If you care to chime in at all go ahead. He pretty much shot it down, as I expected, but if we could get some support I suppose it's still possible."

Interesting..........even as an exhibition class it would be killer, I could care less about a payout or anything like that. Just want to show off what a stock turbo DSM can do.....and that would be the way.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Yup, Even goodwill was still not running 100% efficient and could have gone faster.

Just to be clear, Im going to be doing this on just as stringent of a budget as anyone else. Frankly, I have about $0.00 to actually spend, so Im going to have to build it by trading parts for labor, using stuff I have laying around, pirating parts from my streetcar. It won't surprise me to put the car together this spring with a "far from ideal" setup and spend much of the season making small incremental changes as I acquire parts.

Seriously the only parts I plan to actually BUY with money is a new 5pt harness, a fuel cell off ebay, and maybe some engine gaskets. Everything else will come used from partout cars.

 

[Phil1320]

Yup, Even goodwill was still not running 100% efficient and could have gone faster.

Just to be clear, Im going to be doing this on just as stringent of a budget as anyone else. Frankly, I have about $0.00 to actually spend, so Im going to have to build it by trading parts for labor, using stuff I have laying around, pirating parts from my streetcar. It won't surprise me to put the car together this spring with a "far from ideal" setup and spend much of the season making small incremental changes as I acquire parts.

Seriously the only parts I plan to actually BUY with money is a new 5pt harness, a fuel cell off ebay, and maybe some engine gaskets. Everything else will come used from partout cars.

I hear you there. I'm sure it will still rip in the "far from ideal" state.

I have that same $0.00 to spend so far which means I don't even have a rollbar yet, let alone, better FMIC, etc.

I'll hopefully be able to make my "talon fund" $$$ on ebay over the winter. I think I might have convinced some to get me gift certificates for Christmas, to the speed shop that will be doing the rollbar. That will jumpstart that project. Once that is out of the way, I still need a new bottom mount seat and new 5 point harness as well. Then, I can talk about some mods.

 

[SBstar]

Bucci's built bottom end and FP manifold came after he set the initial record on turbo alone. I do believe he had at least the built engine once he started using nitrous, but I couldn't say for sure. Only that at the time of running 10.8 he was still on a 2g manifold and stock shortblock (albeit b/s eliminated I'm sure).

I sit currently with the wife promising me I can at least "fix" my car to have it running by April when the tracks open. Pretty much a budget consisting of a new crank if mine needs replacing, some plastigauge, lower end gasket set, and some ACL race bearings. Now I just need to find a place to rent with a garage.

 

[pneumo]

One of the problems I tried to address is how power dropped off as rpm's go up. I think everyone needs to look at this because we'll see nearly 7k rpm at the trap speeds we're trying to hit. In my car I was seeing nearly 7k rpm in 4th gear at 118mph with a 23.9" tire. Phils car has stock gearing and 24.5" tire, which puts him around 6500rpm at 116mph. One of the benefits of keeping power up at higher rpm is that you can stay in a lower gear for a little longer.

Here's two vids that show the difference in top end power. The first vid has been up for a while. It's the vid of my 11.67 @113 run. I was still on mostly stock parts: intercooler, IC pipes, cams, intake mani. Listen to the sound of the engine, then compare it to the next vid.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fohMc03DpYI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fohMc03DpYI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

This vid shows me doing 11.57 @117. I just remembered that I had this vid on my computer, but I haven't posted it until now! In this vid I had upgraded to a big fmic, smim, fp2 cams. If you listen to the sound of the engine you can hear the difference. If you pause the vid just as I cross the finish line you can see the tach at 7k rpm.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PPqd14mhh1g&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PPqd14mhh1g&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I also think that aerodynamics starts to make a difference at the speeds we'll see, and that's something that Project goodwill took care of. I think the next 14b record holder will need to add aero mods as well.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Pneumo brings up a very good point...matching your gearing to your powerband.

Im going to run 26" tall hoosiers should keep the rpm down in the 6500 range for ~120mph traps.

Aero is also a concern. air/water ic or running methanol without an IC opens the possiblitly of running a smooth front bumper with no air openings. Relocating the alternator and running a front bumper exit exhaust makes it easier to fab an undercarriage aero pan.

 

[Phil1320]

One of the problems I tried to address is how power dropped off as rpm's go up. I think everyone needs to look at this because the trap speeds we'll see put the rpm's well above 6k rpm. In my car I was seeing nearly 7k rpm in 4th gear at 118mph. Phils car has stock gearing and 24.5" tire, which puts him around 6500rpm at 116mph. One of the benefits of keeping power up at higher rpm is that you can stay in a lower gear for a little longer. Here's two vids that show the difference in top end power. The first vid has been up for a while. It's the vid of my 11.67 @113 run. I was still on mostly stock parts: intercooler, IC pipes, cams, intake mani. Listen to the sound of the engine, then compare it to the next vid.




I also think that aerodynamics starts to make a difference at the speeds we'll see, and that's something that Project goodwill took care of. I think the next 14b record holder will need to add aero mods as well.

Yeah, definitely, you shift to 4th in the first vid just about where I do, way before the 1/8, and in the second vid you're shifting to 4th right at the 1/8.

That's why I say my car is totally about the first 1/8 and I just hang on for what the car has left in it for the second 1/8.

Cool comparo for sure.

I killed my aero with that cutout I made in my front bumper.....but, I did pick another front cover up if I decide to go back to a full one. I'm not a firm believer that aero makes too much difference accelerating up to 113-116 in my case. I'm sure if I was in the situation where I was looking for every last bit, it would be the thing to do. I actually had planned to cover my fog light holes at the minimum, to keep air from hitting the front tires, and direct air to the FMIC.

Pneumo brings up a very good point...matching your gearing to your powerband.

Im going to run 26" tall hoosiers should keep the rpm down in the 6500 range for ~120mph traps.

Aero is also a concern. air/water ic or running methanol without an IC opens the possiblitly of running a smooth front bumper with no air openings. Relocating the alternator and running a front bumper exit exhaust makes it easier to fab an undercarriage aero pan.

I suppose mine is as good as it can get.

Air/Water I/C opens up many possibilities. Props to Joe B. on that front end.

I just run a dump straight down, wastegate too. The question is will the added weight of the extra piping and such be worth the undertray?

I don't know, I mean I'm not cruising at 113-116, I'm accelerating up to that speed....I suppose it all helps. Without a windtunnel, could we be sure it's worth it?

 

[Gooberlog]

"Phil 1320:Well, someone point me in the direction of a 7cm housing and I'll pick it up!

The cams I have are not going to swing the powerband up at all, they were made FOR THE 14B powerband and they are "X" models and that's why I was told by FP to run upgrade springs, which I don't have yet. And, no, I don't want to pull the head, and that's probably why I haven't thrown the cams in yet. But, with everyone coming out of the woodwork on 14b's for 2010, I may have to do some things I don't want to do in order to keep up! I'd agree on the intercooler as the biggest gain. Even with a bit more weight reduciton, the car is really at it's lightest now, before the rollbar. So, the weight game is pretty much over, which has been one of my easy answers to more speed over the years. Now, it's really just make more power. I refuse to do a lexan windshield and a 1 gallon fuel cell. A fuel cell, yes. But, minimum 10 gallon. I just don't think there will be enough weight to come out of the car to overcome the added weight of the rollbar."

Ask and thall shall receive:
These ads had some 7cm turbine housings set up for internal or external gate all for under $100:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classified...setc-1481/?catid=searchresults&searchid=13352
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classified...-ect-1617/?catid=searchresults&searchid=13352
These ads had used ETS FMIC and aftermarket valve springs and retainers:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/4g63-dsm-parts-for-sale-1/ets-huge-fmic-1150-hp-2625/
http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/4g63-dsm-parts-for-sale-1/bc-valve-springs-ti-retainers-2548/


Like i said before, you can pull your cams and swap out your valve springs with the head on the car. I had to pull my cams to replace my valve stem seals on my white talon and bought an "head on the car valve spring compressor" that worked quite well. I would try to pick up one or rent one and swap in those cams once you pick up some valve springs and retainers if you think you're going to need them. It would be nice to see a 14b making good power with the help of some decent cams. Here is a linke to the tool that i used. Schley Products 91400A Universal OHC Valve Spring Compressor

I'm sure the intercooler will help as well, but since you already have some cams laying around in the garage, that may be my first change...other than the only free mod still available, More Weight Reduction

 

[SBstar]

Phil's car is already so lightweight it'd be hard to lose much more! Especially for free, as he said, the cage is going to equal out any weight he gets to tear out this year. He's got to make more power, the cams will probably help, and hopefully a new more efficient front mount. I could see a good two tenths gained from those mods, he needs more powa!

Pneumo has a good point about bringing the revs up, does anyone know what Bucci was shifting at?

EDIT: Nevermind, he answered that question for me a while back. According to Joe, he didn't shift by rpm, he shifted by when boost fell to 18psi, usually around 6800-7000 rpm.