The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[jjrock5]

From reading this thread and having a quick girly gossip chat with Bob at FIM it seems that DSMs are not exactly Phil's priority at the moment. That means he probably doesn't want to spend "unnecessary" amounts of money into the car.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil, have you considered going to something like DSMlink V3 lite? You already have a socketed ECU. It would allow you invaluable tools to make changes on the fly, such as AFR, timing, launch and NLTS RPM. You could switch to speed density which could potentially free up some power. Not to mention the datalogging capabilities. I think you'd be the first to admit that the reason your car is so fast is the weight, and you're definitely leaving alot of power on the table compared to alot of the other 14b setups that have been done. It would be interesting to see what you could get out of it by squeezing another 30-50whp.

Yes, I have, it has been suggested to me more than 2 years ago to get the link in there, and more recently the V3 lite. By what you've listed here, it would be a definite asset to making the most out of what I do have. I know the SAFC is barely a tuning tool at all. Speed density was suggested to me up here by toofast82 and I would also consider that. I guess I just don't want to change too many variables at one time. I don't want a car that takes alot to get fired up after so many changes and needs tuning just to idle, etc. Obviously, I have no experience with "tuning" other than that of the AFC2. However, I know if I want to extract everything, I'll need the link. It would be great to make adjustments at the track based on real-world acceleration and "that day" conditions rather than having to make multiple trips to the track just to see what difference a change makes. Invaluable is a good word to describe it.

Yes, I would say "weight" is A reason my car is fast, not THE reason it is. There's more reasons than that. Power to weight would be another. As we know, I don't make the most power on the 14b---paired with my 100% stock original engine---I might. I still think my car makes power on the higher end of the 14b spectrum>>>295 AWHP and the torque ain't too shabby at 337 at the ground.

Without getting drawn out here and into all the minute details, I'll mention two more reasons the car is what it is, which I've mentioned before I'm sure:

*my car was a strong runner from the get-go. I picked it up bone stock from the original owner and that same month with no clue how to launch it, posted [email protected] with a 2.0 60'. Had I been able to pull a 1.85 60' which is easily possible in a bone stock AWD DSM, the car would have gone 14.60's, which is exactly what CAR and DRIVER magazine ran with their test car. Road and Track's time was 15.3@88 while Car and Driver hit 92 mph traps with theirs.

Gonna insert a small story here, just to show some variance:

When I first got my Talon, after running my only 3 passes bone stock(when I say bone, I mean bone, air silencer still there, the original issue Eagle GT+4 tires, etc.,) I called Dave Buschur to talk about some mods. I had met him that past summer in 1996 at the EIP Tuning East Coast Import Shootout, at MIR. I remember telling him I went 14.89, 14.85, and 14.99. I remember him saying that those were really good times. He was impressed. Then he asked what my 60' times were.....so I told him 2.06 and 2.09. He said, "well your ET's are good but your 60' times suck."
That statement is ultimately why I moved on to be an Extreme guy. During this conversation he told me that his best time stock was 15.1---and he was running better 60's than I was...to slower ET's. The point--I had a STRONG running car from the start, and/or I was shifting at better points.

*Plain and simple I've got 14 years(albeit on and off sometimes)of drag racing experience with the same turbo and powerband. The biggest power change over the spread was adding the EVO FMIC, ACT flywheel, and DSS aluminum driveshaft. The car acts just about the same as it has for years on end.

So, yes, it would be very interesting to see what the car could do with another 30-50 AWHP. As light as it is, and will be, it should pick up some ET as well as trap speed.......hopefully I'll get the chance to find out......

 

[JusMX141]

Thanks for the info. Do you know what numbers we should be looking for? and maybe what year DSM they came on?

Should be on any 1G aside from 1990; although there may be a handful of leftover 01010 turbos being used on 1991's being that fitment is the same between the 1990 and 1991 model years.

What you're looking for will end in 01030 or 01410. There are some 01400 14B's out there as well, but I've yet to see one myself so I have no idea what direction the locknut loosens.

 

[Phil1320]

From reading this thread and having a quick girly gossip chat with Bob at FIM it seems that DSMs are not exactly Phil's priority at the moment. That means he probably doesn't want to spend "unnecessary" amounts of money into the car.

There is some truth to this no doubt. Honestly, DSM's haven't been a priority in my life since I came back from working at Extreme in 2003. I've had many other interests that have taken my time, and of course, money. Either way, the car has always been there when my interest peaked, and has performed way beyond my expectations.

I have always kept the combo simple, and yes, tried to not throw tons of money at it. But, I think the car is now at the point where bigger things need to happen in order to really make a jump in ET. There are no more simple, cheap mods to toss on for sizeable drops in ET. As much as I like to see the slow step by step progression, I'm at a point now where I don't get to the strip much, if at all. So, I may take a few big steps with my set-up this time around so that I'm not taking baby steps at the dragstrip. We will see what comes of it all...

 

[jjrock5]

There is some truth to this no doubt. Honestly, DSM's haven't been a priority in my life since I came back from working at Extreme in 2003. I've had many other interests that have taken my time, and of course, money. Either way, the car has always been there when my interest peaked, and has performed way beyond my expectations.

I have always kept the combo simple, and yes, tried to not throw tons of money at it. But, I think the car is now at the point where bigger things need to happen in order to really make a jump in ET. There are no more simple, cheap mods to toss on for sizeable drops in ET. As much as I like to see the slow step by step progression, I'm at a point now where I don't get to the strip much, if at all. So, I may take a few big steps with my set-up this time around so that I'm not taking baby steps at the dragstrip. We will see what comes of it all...

I kinda wish I could've met you this past CCDSM drag day, bro. Honestly, I was kind of shy since I didnt really know anybody you were hanging with, except Bob, I think. I was the guy with the white 2gb running not so great times since it was my first time at the track and launching the car at all.

I hope I get a chance to at least say hi next year at some DSM event.

Ok, you guys can consider this my homosexual post for the week.

 

[Phil1320]

I kinda wish I could've met you this past CCDSM drag day, bro. Honestly, I was kind of shy since I didnt really know anybody you were hanging with, except Bob, I think. I was the guy with the white 2gb running not so great times since it was my first time at the track and launching the car at all.

I hope I get a chance to at least say hi next year at some DSM event.

Ok, you guys can consider this my homosexual post for the week.

That would have been cool. No sweat man. I'm sure we'll cross paths at some point.

Funny....

 

[TSimage]

Good news is... I have one of the 410 units.

 

[Phil1320]

Good news is... I have one of the 410 units.

410? 01040 you mean....we talkin about your 14b?

 

[TSimage]

410? 01040 you mean....we talkin about your 14b?

Uhhh... The question would be "What are you talking about?"

Should be on any 1G aside from 1990; although there may be a handful of leftover 01010 turbos being used on 1991's being that fitment is the same between the 1990 and 1991 model years.

What you're looking for will end in 01030 or 01410. There are some 01400 14B's out there as well, but I've yet to see one myself so I have no idea what direction the locknut loosens.

 

[Phil1320]

Uhhh... The question would be "What are you talking about?"

My bad, I thought I read 030 and 040 for some reason. We all can't be perfect I guess.

 

[TSimage]

My bad, I thought I read 030 and 040 for some reason. We all can't be perfect I guess.

On a good note, messed with the timing on the Galant today (we had done a few things to diagnose an idle issue and after it was all said and done I never returned the timing to normal hence the POS performance.

It was on like Donkey khong.. I don't think the streets are ready for this 4door sleeper just yet hahaha. The freaking car is always in boost, its the oddest thing ever. If any of you ever get a chance to open up a 14b setup (even minor port jobs on everything) and then slap on a hotpipe its an odd sensation...WTF

I'll hopefully start tuning it myself soon just for the hell of it and to drive it around (HORRIBLE mpg with the current setting and E85.. worst ever, I can almost see my needle move, I'm not kidding...) All in all when Dave comes I want to start all over from scratch regardless so I don't want to put too much effort into just to hurt my own feeling in a couple weeks when Dave shows me how its REALLY done.

 

[pneumo]

On a good note, messed with the timing on the Galant today (we had done a few things to diagnose an idle issue and after it was all said and done I never returned the timing to normal hence the POS performance.

It was on like Donkey khong.. I don't think the streets are ready for this 4door sleeper just yet hahaha. The freaking car is always in boost, its the oddest thing ever. If any of you ever get a chance to open up a 14b setup (even minor port jobs on everything) and then slap on a hotpipe its an odd sensation...WTF

I'll hopefully start tuning it myself soon just for the hell of it and to drive it around (HORRIBLE mpg with the current setting and E85.. worst ever, I can almost see my needle move, I'm not kidding...) All in all when Dave comes I want to start all over from scratch regardless so I don't want to put too much effort into just to hurt my own feeling in a couple weeks when Dave shows me how its REALLY done.

Haha, I'll try to be nice! I have a feeling you'll be able to tune it better than you think. You'll be suprised how much you learn after struggling with the tune for a couple months.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah, I thought so. That's what it was--compensation for the larger injectors--that I remember hearing. I understand about the expanding the range of the fuel and timing maps...ok, cool. Extra speed will always work Dave!

Uh oh, really, stock MAF code in my chip? I've been running a 2G MAF for at least 5 years....so I guess I failed to tell you that?...damn.... So, is this worth anything if you change it to 2G MAF? I'm assuming so, otherwise I doubt you would have mentioned it....

Dave?

 

[97eclipseNT]

Just thought I'd add some times to the thread. Tonight at PRP on straight 93 and snow tires, I went 12.85 @ 106.96 in my 2g. My goal was to get a 13.5 and I hit that on the first pass. went 13.52, 13.14, 13.12, 13.00 then 12.85. Stock cams, unported 6cm housing, unported stock exhaust manifold, and no exhaust. Pretty happy so far and I can wait to see what this thing is capable of.

 

[Phil1320]

Just thought I'd add some times to the thread. Tonight at PRP on straight 93 and snow tires, I went 12.85 @ 106.96 in my 2g. My goal was to get a 13.5 and I hit that on the first pass. went 13.52, 13.14, 13.12, 13.00 then 12.85. Stock cams, unported 6cm housing, unported stock exhaust manifold, and no exhaust. Pretty happy so far and I can wait to see what this thing is capable of.

Very nice progression

Congrats on hitting 12 seconds. Nice job!

 

[pneumo]

Dave?

Hi Phil,
Sorry I misses your post, my laptop blew up last week and I've had minimal internet access. I got a new laptop now!

Anyway, I remember we sent a lot of PM's back and forth when we were working on your chip. I remember you saying that you didn't want to add any complexity, and that your current tune was working just the way you liked. You did have a 2G maf and 550 injectors, which are a close match. Eventually we decided to leave that part alone so you wouldn't have to re-tune. The mods in your chip got rid of the flat spots in the timing map, I added some nice knock code, added the stutterbox, and a few small things to add speed.

If you upgrade your injectors I'll change the injector sizing in the chip. You can easily fine tune the settings with your SAFC, it should only take a few passes to dial in, then you'll have more fuel to play with which can only help.

The timing and fuel maps can be improved if you upgrade to a 16G. The torque curve is different than a 14b since spoolup happens a few hundred rpm later, peak torque starts almost 1k rpm later and stays up longer, plus the turbo can put out better power in high rpms. I've learned a few tricks that I can add to the fuel and timing maps to help spoolup, which should also help response on a road course as well. Just let me know which way you go with your mods. I'll be here!

 

[Phil1320]

Hi Phil,
Sorry I misses your post, my laptop blew up last week and I've had minimal internet access. I got a new laptop now!

Anyway, I remember we sent a lot of PM's back and forth when we were working on your chip. I remember you saying that you didn't want to add any complexity, and that your current tune was working just the way you liked. You did have a 2G maf and 550 injectors, which are a close match. Eventually we decided to leave that part alone so you wouldn't have to re-tune. The mods in your chip got rid of the flat spots in the timing map, I added some nice knock code, added the stutterbox, and a few small things to add speed.

If you upgrade your injectors I'll change the injector sizing in the chip. You can easily fine tune the settings with your SAFC, it should only take a few passes to dial in, then you'll have more fuel to play with which can only help.

The timing and fuel maps can be improved if you upgrade to a 16G. The torque curve is different than a 14b since spoolup happens a few hundred rpm later, peak torque starts almost 1k rpm later and stays up longer, plus the turbo can put out better power in high rpms. I've learned a few tricks that I can add to the fuel and timing maps to help spoolup, which should also help response on a road course as well. Just let me know which way you go with your mods. I'll be here!

No sweat at all. Thanks for replying now. Yes, we did, and from the other side of the country you did a phenominal job at getting me a chip that worked really well. Ok, so I did at least tell you that I had the 2G MAF, I was really gonna be bent if I hadn't

Ok, well, I will definitely retune the car, as in, get it on the dyno for sure before the next time at this strip, wether it be on another 14b, or 16g. So, I would guess at that time we would want to get more complex for sure. After seeing whats possible with 16g turbos, I am intrigued. I would like a turbo that pulls a bit harder up top, and in the second 1/8th. Not sure what the starting point will be for next year. I would like to make some 14b passes and I will have a rebuilt 14b ready to go by then.

I like all that you've mentioned above about the 16g....and I did plan to run a 16g for the road course----for the main reason that the stock 14b was old and original and I figured I would go with a fresh new 16g, especially when I could be on track continuously for 30-40 minutes at a time. It turns out that the used E316g I've got may have a few problems, so I will most likely need to source another one, or my options are open again.

Anyway, thanks for the help as always and I'll keep you posted as to the direction I will be taking to start the year off.

 

[Phil1320]

Whelp....work has started on the Talon for next year. Nothing too crazy. Well, other than the fact that the engine and trans are ready to come out. Since the 14b took a digger, I no longer really have a complex about the integrity of it all anymore. That's great, because now I will be able to do some things that I've wanted to do for quite some time. Anyway, I'll have some more info and some pics to follow soon.

 

[jjrock5]

So you're pulling out the engine because the turbo died?

You sure that makes sense?
What are your plans?

 

[SBstar]

If I had to guess, B/S elimination and cams?

I have totally been slacking on the dsm game lately. I drive my car about 5 miles a week just to the gym and back a few days and that's been about it. I guess I shouldn't say that, I've taken it on at least one cruise of about 10-15 miles just so it gets a proper warm-up. The car on E-85 and a non-recirc bov isn't very fun in this cold weather, likes to stall frequently and is a pain to get started in the morning. I have my driveshaft sitting there ready to go on with the t-case but I've just not made the time, I'm going to try to get that back up in there today, but I'm considering new bushings for it so I might wait depending on how much they run. I am however, pretty excited for next season, it's just that end of the year, tracks closing, lull when I'm focusing on other things more extensively.

 

[Phil1320]

So you're pulling out the engine because the turbo died?

You sure that makes sense?
What are your plans?

No, no definitely not. Like I said above, there's some things that I've wanted to do in the past couple years that I didn't, because I didn't want to play with how well my car was running and screw anything up. But, now that the turbo decided to end itself, now I don't have a problem with the whole integrity of it all anymore. So, now I want to pull the engine out and do some things, two of which SBstar nailed on the head. Balance shaft elimination and cams. Along with that I'm going to eliminate the oil cooler for now and put the forward facing filter housing on there. I may do the alternator relocate to the firewall side of the engine to free up more room. I've got a bunch of thoughts about what I want to do....things like electric water pump for instance. But, I'm sure I won't get it all done for next year, and I don't want to complicate the set-up, I want to make it more simple actually. So, electric water pump may get a bit too intricate this time around. Last, the exhaust ports and the bottom of the valves are really coated with alot of carbon buildup. So, there's a chance that I will pull the head and have it cleaned and rebuilt with maybe some mild work done. I have to do upgrade valve springs and retainers to run the cams I have, so....we will see.

If I had to guess, B/S elimination and cams?

I have totally been slacking on the dsm game lately. I drive my car about 5 miles a week just to the gym and back a few days and that's been about it. I guess I shouldn't say that, I've taken it on at least one cruise of about 10-15 miles just so it gets a proper warm-up. The car on E-85 and a non-recirc bov isn't very fun in this cold weather, likes to stall frequently and is a pain to get started in the morning. I have my driveshaft sitting there ready to go on with the t-case but I've just not made the time, I'm going to try to get that back up in there today, but I'm considering new bushings for it so I might wait depending on how much they run. I am however, pretty excited for next season, it's just that end of the year, tracks closing, lull when I'm focusing on other things more extensively.

Good guess! I hear you on the end of the season thing. Problem for me is, if I don't get some type of head start on the work I have to do, half the season will be gone next year before I make a pass.

Definitely want to see you out next year and hopefully you can head toward 11 seconds!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Phil, I totally agree with you in the head start thing. I'm the same way with procrastinating all winter when it's cold and I don't feel like working, then I wait for nice weather to even start the work and it ends up mid July and the car still has no engine in it! We were bench 14b racing all winter and I had to rush to make a first pass in freaking august! So: KUDOS on the head start. Plan to have the car running in February and you'll be sure to have a raceable car in march for opening day.

 

[bullettdsm]

wether it be on another 14b, or 16g.

(and Bullett gives the evil eye )

So, now I want to pull the engine out and do some things, two of which SBstar nailed on the head. Balance shaft elimination and cams.

Agreed on both points. Now's the time to attack those two. Low cost upgrades (I mean you already have the cams )

In addition;

Last, the exhaust ports and the bottom of the valves are really coated with alot of carbon buildup. So, there's a chance that I will pull the head and have it cleaned and rebuilt with maybe some mild work done. I have to do upgrade valve springs and retainers to run the cams I have, so....we will see.

More relatively "low cost" items that could gain you some flow. Though I would proposition that you really have no need to upgrade (as in pay for) retainers. I could see doing springs, though.

BTW, I have done NOTHING with my NA since dragday and seating the valves, . So the winter boat becomes heavier.

MB

 

[Phil1320]

Phil, I totally agree with you in the head start thing. I'm the same way with procrastinating all winter when it's cold and I don't feel like working, then I wait for nice weather to even start the work and it ends up mid July and the car still has no engine in it! We were bench 14b racing all winter and I had to rush to make a first pass in freaking august! So: KUDOS on the head start. Plan to have the car running in February and you'll be sure to have a raceable car in march for opening day.

Cool.....thanks! Yeah, the winter definitely gets me in hibernation mode, and without a heated garage, I figure I better work while I still can. If I can have the engine out on a stand before it gets too cold, that can be brought somewhere warm to work on if need be. The plan would be to be able to race in the April-May arena, just not into the latter part of the summer.

(and Bullett gives the evil eye )



Agreed on both points. Now's the time to attack those two. Low cost upgrades (I mean you already have the cams )

In addition;


More relatively "low cost" items that could gain you some flow. Though I would proposition that you really have no need to upgrade (as in pay for) retainers. I could see doing springs, though.

BTW, I have done NOTHING with my NA since dragday and seating the valves, . So the winter boat becomes heavier.

MB

I know you want me to come out on a 14b again....and I will.....I have an idea of what I'm going to do with that....again, a few more tweaks that I haven't taken advantage of in the past. So, I will come out on the 14b next year at least initially. I won't be out on the EVO 3 16g, at least the one I have. I'm actually returning the E3 I have to its owner as there is some damage to the turbo. So, there goes my 7cm housing with it. I will have to source another E3 7cm housing. It's amazing how much lighter it is than my 14b 6cm. I think the number I read was like 3.5 lbs. Pretty decent reduction for such a small part, and you know I hate weight reduction! I have something else in the works that may change that fairly quickly next year though. I won't say anything yet, as things are still in the beginning stages. I just want to make sure that it will happen before I open up some can of worms. If it falls through or doesn't happen for one reason or another, it will be 14b all next year.

Yep, definitely time to take advantage of some things that I haven't thus far. And, last time I talked to Robert at FP he told me I definitely need the upgrade springs for the 1X cams I have. Guess I should put the better lifters in too, although, mine have rarely ever ticked. I guess it's a common upgrade. But, the more I introduce, the more my wallet will need to be opened too So I'll do what I can.

Wow, you haven't touched your car? I thought you would have been back to the track already to try and nail down that 12 second pass Next year for you too huh?

 

[black92_tsi_awd]

Thought I'd add my time to this thread, I've been following it for a while.

My runs today
12.49 @ 110.5
12.68 @ 110.5 Spun tires bad
12.37 @ 110.3
12.34 @ 111.6
12.36 @ 111.2
12.27 @ 111.1 New best!
12.39 @ 110.8
12.34 @ 110.7

Most 60's were in the 1.7x Turbo was spiking to 24 psi and falling off. Had to richen the MAFT Translator as far as it would go and still had a little knock with 112 in the tank. DC were around 92%.

Car weight over 3000lbs with me in it. I've been fighting the urge to jump to the 16g...