The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

Thanks man, I appreciate it! It caught me by surprise, that's for sure. Your right, it does lead to a new build...just not sure exactly what path I'm taking yet......

...that's interesting as far as your numbers with the 7cm housing....pretty significant!

Really sorry to hear about your 14b Phil!! However, destruction leads to a new build




For what it's worth i just drove my car for the first time since changing to 7cm and getting all the porting done.

I ran it on the same calibration i had before i did the work to the car and also ran it on the same road as i did the last time. I'm using virtual dyno maths..
Last pull w/6cm housing:199HP
219TQ
Today w/7cm housing: 228HP
246TQ

However, it did seem to run a lot leaner. Now, i got to fix the rest of air and oil leaks

Oh no, did you blow your 14b up Phil? Is everyone trying to pull some strings to find a good one for ya to break some more records? I'm outa the loop already!

That is the deal. It is a gonner....just go back a couple pages and you can read all about it. Summary: got to the strip last Friday on a couple days notice from some friends that they would get me to the strip. Had run a best of 11.62 and on my fifth pass(a would be 11.57)the nut on the compressor wheel came off, sending the shaft and turbine wheel out the exhaust with a bit of oil at 1100-1200 ft. or so. Went 11.87@92 on that pass. GAME OVER.

 

[Nate Crisman]

While most dragstrip oriented DSMer's bring spare drivers' rear axles, Xcase, and driveshaft with them to the track for the "typical" pit repairs..... 14B record chasers simply need to bring an extra turbo cartridge.

As a side note, I'v decided to get back to record chasing for sure in the spring with my 1g. I'm going to run it at Etown next saturday with 100shot (which will empty what is left in my bottle in 4 passes). Then Im planning to try and get back to Island dragway for one last track day on a sunday with the car slimmed down on weight and see what I can post up for a E3 16g "boost only" day. That should appease some of you "cheater = bottle" guys. hahaha

Winter mods are going to be pretty heavy:

• Stripping the car down to rolling chassis again
• wiring harnesses being completely cut down...likely using a rollcage mount painless chassis harness.
• removing the 6pt mild steel rollbar. Installing certified chromoly rollcage w/ chute, window net.
• most likely the interior will be all left out after the cage install to save weight. Likely aluminum plate dash if anything. Solid/light steering column.
• Auto-AWD trans...Im in the process of buying the parts car now.
• adding a 4port nitrous kit to the existing setup. The 50hp single fogger will be for getting up on the converter/launch with an additional 150hp from the 4 port coming on late first gear.
• 15" light wheels (likely cheap rota) and new slicks.
• 1600cc or bigger injectors that will support straight methanol. (current 950's are running 100% with only a 38% methanol mixture with E85)
• External wastegate on o2 housing.

I want to get the cage done over the winter rather than be stuck once I hit that 9.99 goal and have to take the car apart mid season. Im also going to see about getting my nhra license at a class where you drive a supplied dragster rather than trying to do it in my own car. I'm looking forward to the auto trans, simply because that's something I'v never done before.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

While most dragstrip oriented DSMer's bring spare drivers' rear axles, Xcase, and driveshaft with them to the track for the "typical" pit repairs.....

14B record chasers simply need to bring an extra turbo cartridge.

Haha, good point!

 

[e85_4g63]

This may have been covered (and I probably just missed it) but is there ANYONE running a 2g auto on a 14b in the hunt? (I happen to own a 97 Tsi fwd auto, bone stock at the moment)?

 

[TSimage]

This may have been covered (and I probably just missed it) but is there ANYONE running a 2g auto on a 14b in the hunt? (I happen to own a 97 Tsi fwd auto, bone stock at the moment)?

2G AUTO, no, 5spd yes.

We don't discriminate, there is no difference, we're all just one big happy family. You can go for the "fastest 2g on a 14b" record if ya like , the 2G guys like doing that since they are always too slow to take down the 1g guys.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

2G AUTO, no, 5spd yes.

We don't discriminate, there is no difference, we're all just one big happy family. You can go for the "fastest 2g on a 14b" record if ya like , the 2G guys like doing that since they are always too slow to take down the 1g guys.

Yeah I agree. It should just be fastest 14b. If you want to divid it more, 1g and 2g. It gets a little ridiculous when people start shooting for the "Fastest 14b, AWD, Auto, 2g, pump gas, with street tires record". That's a bit of an exaggeration but you get the point.

On another note, check this guy (not a newbie) out on this thread:

The T25 wont really do a whole lot of good above 15psi...neither will a 14b. They will just become a hot air blower and nothing more. Honestly, I would drop in an Evo III 16G and call it good...you will have a lot more room to play and keep the cost low.

I referred him to this thread for some reading up on the 14b over 15 psi.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Just updated my build blog:

DSM Forums - FWD 14b project "Christine" Pt. 2

 

[YZFR1]

Thanks man, I appreciate it! It caught me by surprise, that's for sure. Your right, it does lead to a new build...just not sure exactly what path I'm taking yet......

...that's interesting as far as your numbers with the 7cm housing....pretty significant!

Well, whichever path you decide to take.. i'm sure you will push it to the max!!

As far as, dyno maths.. they are not exact numbers or anything especially since i was on a 25-30 Degree incline road, to my excuse..hehe and the tune is way on the conservative side. However, they are helpfull in seeing changes made especially when used on the same road. As the angle of the road and the surface all make a huge difference on the final numbers.

Once, i work out all the little bugs and get the car legal to drive, i plan on converting it to FWD just so that i could take it to a local fwd dyno. They are doing a promo until the end of the year of $200 for 4 hours. Can't beat that!

I've seen you say that your car dynoed at 295 hp which is pretty damn good. And you say that it is about 50 hp less than some other car. I think i will be lucky to come anywhere near those numbers!! I will do my best though hehe.. so long as i'm having fun while doing it!

 

[Phil1320]

While most dragstrip oriented DSMer's bring spare drivers' rear axles, Xcase, and driveshaft with them to the track for the "typical" pit repairs..... 14B record chasers simply need to bring an extra turbo cartridge.

As a side note, I'v decided to get back to record chasing for sure in the spring with my 1g. I'm going to run it at Etown next saturday with 100shot (which will empty what is left in my bottle in 4 passes). Then Im planning to try and get back to Island dragway for one last track day on a sunday with the car slimmed down on weight and see what I can post up for a E3 16g "boost only" day. That should appease some of you "cheater = bottle" guys. hahaha

Winter mods are going to be pretty heavy:

• Stripping the car down to rolling chassis again
• wiring harnesses being completely cut down...likely using a rollcage mount painless chassis harness.
• removing the 6pt mild steel rollbar. Installing certified chromoly rollcage w/ chute, window net.
• most likely the interior will be all left out after the cage install to save weight. Likely aluminum plate dash if anything. Solid/light steering column.
• Auto-AWD trans...Im in the process of buying the parts car now.
• adding a 4port nitrous kit to the existing setup. The 50hp single fogger will be for getting up on the converter/launch with an additional 150hp from the 4 port coming on late first gear.
• 15" light wheels (likely cheap rota) and new slicks.
• 1600cc or bigger injectors that will support straight methanol. (current 950's are running 100% with only a 38% methanol mixture with E85)
• External wastegate on o2 housing.

I want to get the cage done over the winter rather than be stuck once I hit that 9.99 goal and have to take the car apart mid season. Im also going to see about getting my nhra license at a class where you drive a supplied dragster rather than trying to do it in my own car. I'm looking forward to the auto trans, simply because that's something I'v never done before.

Sounds pretty sick Nate....good luck! If I make it to E-town, I'll come by and say Hi, but, as it stands, I will most likely not make it down. Go figure.

Just updated my build blog:

DSM Forums - FWD 14b project "Christine" Pt. 2

Never read on that before.....that's awesome. Good stuff. Keep it up!

Well, whichever path you decide to take.. i'm sure you will push it to the max!!

As far as, dyno maths.. they are not exact numbers or anything especially since i was on a 25-30 Degree incline road, to my excuse..hehe and the tune is way on the conservative side. However, they are helpfull in seeing changes made especially when used on the same road. As the angle of the road and the surface all make a huge difference on the final numbers.

Once, i work out all the little bugs and get the car legal to drive, i plan on converting it to FWD just so that i could take it to a local fwd dyno. They are doing a promo until the end of the year of $200 for 4 hours. Can't beat that!

I've seen you say that your car dynoed at 295 hp which is pretty damn good. And you say that it is about 50 hp less than some other car. I think i will be lucky to come anywhere near those numbers!! I will do my best though hehe.. so long as i'm having fun while doing it!

Thanks man, I certainly hope to come out STRONG next year, and thought it would be on another solid 14b effort, but, I've been presented with an alternate option that I may take. Even so, I will most likely hit the strip the first time on the 14b next year in a go-for-broke type of way.

Still pretty cool to see those numbers even if they aren't 100% accurate, still a good comparo....I like that stuff alot.

Yes, I speculate that pneumo makes 50 more AWHP than I do.....he did 324 AWHP on a Mustang dyno....I did 295 AWHP on a Dynojet, and according to what I read, either the Dynojet reads high, or the Mustang reads conservatively low. So, basic math says we are 29 AWHP apart---if you add the dyno differences in....the gap is even further apart, I guessed at 50 AWHP.

Also, I've heard rumors that the all-time fastest 14b record holder, Joe Bucci, FWD 10.84@126, made FWHP of near ---400--- Not sure if there's truth to it. We could figure it out most likely. His total race weight was about 2200 lbs. if I remember correctly. He ran 1.5X 60' times. And trapped 126mph. Pneumos total weight is around 2900 or so and he went 11.51@118 with his 324 AWHP. My total race weight is 2470 and I've trapped best 116.85 with my MEASELY 295 AWHP.

I bet you'll be surprised at the power you make, and if not, we'll find you some more!

 

[YZFR1]

I bet you'll be surprised at the power you make, and if not, we'll find you some more!

No doubt.. glad to hear that!! I would be sure to report back any numbers i come up with.. good or bad.

 

[pneumo]

Wow, I go on vacation for a week and look what happens! Oh the drama
So Phil found the limits of the 14b just like I did. Sometimes the limit is the ammount of power it makes, sometimes the limit is the ET, and sometimes it's the abuse it can take before it explodes!

Phil you should try the 16g for a while, it's easy to swap back to the 14b if you decide to go that route, and you just might get into the tens with a 16G! The timing map on the chip I burned for you should still be close to ideal with race gas, it has much better timing above 6k rpms which is where the 16G pulls away from the 14b. IIRC you're running 10 degrees base timing, right? Since it flows more, you might try reducing timing by 2 or 3 degrees at the CAS. Try it at the track and see what works best.

Oh and sorry about the ole 14b, RIP tough little bugger.

Here's a pic of my 14B looking down the intake pipe. It blew a couple months after I got the record. It's a neat pic, the nut is sitting in a frothy puddle of oil like the turbo is trying to say, 'see what you made me do, there goes my nut! Are you happy now?!?!"

 

[TSimage]

That sounded gross Dave ! When you comin up to test out that 16g? Lemme know and maybe we can take the Galant out there finally too. We'll make a weekend out of it.

 

[Phil1320]

No doubt.. glad to hear that!! I would be sure to report back any numbers i come up with.. good or bad.

Well, definitely interested in what you can lay down.....doing that soon? Dyno, I mean....?

Wow, I go on vacation for a week and look what happens! Oh the drama
So Phil found the limits of the 14b just like I did. Sometimes the limit is the ammount of power it makes, sometimes the limit is the ET, and sometimes it's the abuse it can take before it explodes!

Phil you should try the 16g for a while, it's easy to swap back to the 14b if you decide to go that route, and you just might get into the tens with a 16G! The timing map on the chip I burned for you should still be close to ideal with race gas, it has much better timing above 6k rpms which is where the 16G pulls away from the 14b. IIRC you're running 10 degrees base timing, right? Since it flows more, you might try reducing timing by 2 or 3 degrees at the CAS. Try it at the track and see what works best.

Oh and sorry about the ole 14b, RIP tough little bugger.

Here's a pic of my 14B looking down the intake pipe. It blew a couple months after I got the record. It's a neat pic, the nut is sitting in a frothy puddle of oil like the turbo is trying to say, 'see what you made me do, there goes my nut! Are you happy now?!?!"

Thanks Dave! It's a bummer in a way for sure with some of the other carnage, but, it's created a new breeding ground for me now, wether I stay on the 14b or throw the E3 on. I knew I remembered the same thing happening to you....and I remember that picture now too>>>funny stuff Dave. 10's on the 16g would definitely be cool! And, yes, I'm at 10 degrees base timing.
Here's a question for you, I've got mixed answers so I'm wondering what your experience is: Think the 550cc injectors will be enough to cover the EVO 3 16g? I plan to run in the low 20psi range, maybe 22-23psi. No big spike or anything like that. Some say I should be ok, some say definitely go 680cc or 720cc. Thoughts? I know it's all a guessing game and my failure to ever log a run kinda bites...

 

[JusMX141]

Here's a pic of my 14B looking down the intake pipe. It blew a couple months after I got the record.

Yours also appears to have been an 01010 turbo with the right-hand threaded compressor locknut.

You guys need to be using 14B's with left-hand threaded locknuts if you're going to be boosting the shit out of them like this! They're failing for no reason other than the nut coming loose.

 

[sprmotohooligan]

Yours also appears to have been an 01010 turbo with the right-hand threaded compressor locknut.

You guys need to be using 14B's with left-hand threaded locknuts if you're going to be boosting the shit out of them like this! They're failing for no reason other than the nut coming loose.

Now I'm getting slightly paranoid and am going to have to check my compressor cover next time I go out for a drive haha

 

[Phil1320]

Yours also appears to have been an 01010 turbo with the right-hand threaded compressor locknut.

You guys need to be using 14B's with left-hand threaded locknuts if you're going to be boosting the shit out of them like this! They're failing for no reason other than the nut coming loose.

We gotcha man, but, honestly, I never had a reason to care. I've got hundreds and hundreds of passes on that turbo over a 14 year period and the car has performed without flaw until last Friday.

 

[TSimage]

You wont be able to push that Evo3 ot the limits with anything smaller than 680s...

 

[Steve93Talon]

Here's a question for you, I've got mixed answers so I'm wondering what your experience is: Think the 550cc injectors will be enough to cover the EVO 3 16g? I plan to run in the low 20psi range, maybe 22-23psi. No big spike or anything like that. Some say I should be ok, some say definitely go 680cc or 720cc. Thoughts? I know it's all a guessing game and my failure to ever log a run kinda bites...

We ran 550s down to 11.0 @ 123 on Tort's old 20g setup. This was on C16 at around 28psi, AFRs were way lean and IDCs were pegged but it got the job done in it's day.

 

[pneumo]

Yours also appears to have been an 01010 turbo with the right-hand threaded compressor locknut.

You guys need to be using 14B's with left-hand threaded locknuts if you're going to be boosting the shit out of them like this! They're failing for no reason other than the nut coming loose.

Thanks for the info. Do you know what numbers we should be looking for? and maybe what year DSM they came on?

Phil, like Steve said, you'll be pushing the 550's to the edge, even with 116 octane. If you want a little more safety margin, get a good fuel pump if you don't already have one, and raise the fuel pressure a little. The cheap and easy way is to get a 1G NT fpr, it's rated at 48psi which will make your 550's flow around 625cc.

So how about it? Add a 16G, NT fpr, dial back the base timing a couple degrees.... and hit tens?!?
Nah it can't be done that easy, can it?

 

[Phil1320]

You wont be able to push that Evo3 ot the limits with anything smaller than 680s...

What do you consider the limits? I stated above I'd only run 22 or so psi.....not 30 psi with 40 psi spikes like some of these guys.....

We ran 550s down to 11.0 @ 123 on Tort's old 20g setup. This was on C16 at around 28psi, AFRs were way lean and IDCs were pegged but it got the job done in it's day.

Interesting....I seem to remember EVERY old school DSMr running 20g's at 25 psi on 550cc injectors.....or something in that realm. VPC with a 550 chip is all I used to hear about. Will the EVO flow more than the old 20g at sub 25 psi boost levels? I'm no turbo guru as far as the numbers go...guess I will be now....

Thanks for the info. Do you know what numbers we should be looking for? and maybe what year DSM they came on?

Phil, like Steve said, you'll be pushing the 550's to the edge, even with 116 octane. If you want a little more safety margin, get a good fuel pump if you don't already have one, and raise the fuel pressure a little. The cheap and easy way is to get a 1G NT fpr, it's rated at 48psi which will make your 550's flow around 625cc.

So how about it? Add a 16G, NT fpr, dial back the base timing a couple degrees.... and hit tens?!?
Nah it can't be done that easy, can it?

The numbers on the compressor housings we should be running are a page back or so....01030 and 01040. Apparently the '90 cars came with the ones that the nut loosens on....sure wish I knew that years ago, would have never thought to do a check on the turbo's shaft when I was running consistent mid 11's....oh well, my bad for not knowing, now we all know, and can adjust, or perform checks on 01010 turbos, or have that nut secured somehow if we all can't get these other turbos.....

I'm sure it's not safe to stick with the 550cc. I've got the Walbro 255 high pressure and an Aeromotive FPR. So, I can bump pressure. Think I'm at 42 now. If I have to do injectors than I know something has to happen with the chip as far as I've been told, correct?

10 seconds could be possible with a few changes and adding the EVO3. Generally, I'm never one to speak before I do, but considering my car WAS a consistent 11.60's car, I don't see why initial 16g passes wouldn't keep me solid under 11.4-11.5 anyway. Or, it might just be that easy.......

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Concerning the 01010 turbo w/ right hand threaded compressor locknut...

We gotcha man, but, honestly, I never had a reason to care. I've got hundreds and hundreds of passes on that turbo over a 14 year period and the car has performed without flaw until last Friday.

Kind of makes you wonder how long the newer style one would have lasted, doesn't it? Those are tough little turbos.

 

[Phil1320]

Concerning the 01010 turbo w/ right hand threaded compressor locknut...


Kind of makes you wonder how long the newer style one would have lasted, doesn't it? Those are tough little turbos.

ummmmmm....probably forever!

 

[pneumo]

I'm sure it's not safe to stick with the 550cc. I've got the Walbro 255 high pressure and an Aeromotive FPR. So, I can bump pressure. Think I'm at 42 now. If I have to do injectors than I know something has to happen with the chip as far as I've been told, correct?

10 seconds could be possible with a few changes and adding the EVO3. Generally, I'm never one to speak before I do, but considering my car WAS a consistent 11.60's car, I don't see why initial 16g passes wouldn't keep me solid under 11.4-11.5 anyway. Or, it might just be that easy.......

I'd definately recommend changing a few things in your chip. You'll need to compensate for bigger injectors and expand the range of the fuel and timing maps to handle the extra airflow that a 16G will give you. Your timing map will still be unique since you're using race gas, which likes high timing. I'll have to look at my notes and see what other mods I came up with since last time, I'm sure there's more speed hidden in there somewhere. Oh yeah, your chip still has stock MAF code- did you get a 2G maf last year?

 

[Phil1320]

I'd definately recommend changing a few things in your chip. You'll need to compensate for bigger injectors and expand the range of the fuel and timing maps to handle the extra airflow that a 16G will give you. Your timing map will still be unique since you're using race gas, which likes high timing. I'll have to look at my notes and see what other mods I came up with since last time, I'm sure there's more speed hidden in there somewhere. Oh yeah, your chip still has stock MAF code- did you get a 2G maf last year?

Yeah, I thought so. That's what it was--compensation for the larger injectors--that I remember hearing. I understand about the expanding the range of the fuel and timing maps...ok, cool. Extra speed will always work Dave!

Uh oh, really, stock MAF code in my chip? I've been running a 2G MAF for at least 5 years....so I guess I failed to tell you that?...damn.... So, is this worth anything if you change it to 2G MAF? I'm assuming so, otherwise I doubt you would have mentioned it....

 

[Steve93Talon]

Phil, have you considered going to something like DSMlink V3 lite? You already have a socketed ECU. It would allow you invaluable tools to make changes on the fly, such as AFR, timing, launch and NLTS RPM. You could switch to speed density which could potentially free up some power. Not to mention the datalogging capabilities. I think you'd be the first to admit that the reason your car is so fast is the weight, and you're definitely leaving alot of power on the table compared to alot of the other 14b setups that have been done. It would be interesting to see what you could get out of it by squeezing another 30-50whp.