2G Takes like 5 tries to start 2G GST

[bo0st2]

Long story short, whenever the car is cold and hasn't been started it takes like 5 attempts to get it to start. Then it runs like shit for a while until it warms up.

Uploaded a couple videos over here so you guys could get a better idea of what’s going on

Here’s a view from inside the car, notice the coolant temp:

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It started after the 5th attempt.

Here’s a view from outside the car (same interaction):

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Battery is good, I just recently cleaned the air filter too. Fuel pump is new too.

I think someone told me I might have to replace the alternator but I don't think it would cause this behavior right?

Car behaves differently once warm. You can see at like 0:37 seconds in this video I turn the car off and back on like 3 times, it starts up just fine once its warm.

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Here's a log from ECMLink that I took while doing this:

Car is pretty much stock besides 1G CAS, Greedy Bov, Megan Racing Downpipe & cat delete, ECMlink V3 Full, AEM Wideband, AEM Volts, K&N Air Filter.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[92AWDHX40]

How To Diagnose A No-Start

Diagnosing a No-StartI've been seeing a lot of No-Start related threads popping up lately, and I figured a basic Tech Article for diagnosing a few of the most common No-Start problems might be in order. Any images posted are courtesy of my 1990 GSX your setup may differ slightly; refer to...

www.dsmtuners.com

 

[Sirius1995]

-Does gas cap smell like gas, do you run pump gas or re85?

-contamination in fuel?

-Check spark plugs and wires and that wiring order is correct, and post pictures of spark plugs

-check fuel pressure and let us know how many psi/bar it is

-check that timing marks are on spot

-check dry compression (take fuel pump relay out of disconnect injectors) on each cylinder and let us know how much each cylinder had compression

-check wet compression (add a tiny bit of ATF in each cylinder), post results here

For me it sounds like water in gas, bad fuel pressure or bad compression issue

In the video it also sounds like timing belt is too tight and you either have a lot of air in your PS linens or you PS pump is about to go out

On the first video it also sounds like you have bad engine mount or something wacking on the chassis

Seconds video it sounds like you have backfire through valves on both intake and exhaust side, badly seated/damaged valves or timing is bad? and almost like starter motor is still running after engine starts, does not sound healthy at all

 

[evil_eagletalon]

Deff fuel related. Is the car on e85? You can confirm this by spraying some starter fluid inside the manifold to see if it fires faster. Also where in the country are you? Its been pretty cold even in california. I would check and make sure the coolant temp sensor is reading correctly on ecmlink and doesnt think its freezing or running hot. The coolant temp reading should be pretty close to what the ambient temp is in your area.

 

[DSMPT]

I would check the fuel pressure when cold and hot, and the base ignition timing first.
If you have never set the base timing before, you may have the base timing too retarded. That would cause a hard start, would be harder especially when the engine is cold.

 

[pauleyman]

Trying to figure out what is causing this.

Long story short, whenever the car is cold and hasn't been started it takes like 5 attempts to get it to start.

Then it runs like shit for a while until it warms up.

Uploaded a couple videos over here so you guys could get a better idea of what’s going on

Here’s a view from inside the car, notice the coolant temp:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

It started after the 5th attempt.

Here’s a view from outside the car (same interaction):

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Battery is good, I just recently cleaned the air filter too. Fuel pump is new too.

I think someone told me I might have to replace the alternator but I don't think it would cause this behavior right?

Car behaves differently once warm.

You can see at like 0:37 seconds in this video I turn the car off and back on like 3 times, it starts up just fine once its warm.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Here's a log from ECMLink that I took while doing this:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Car is pretty much stock besides 1G CAS, Greedy Bov, Megan Racing Downpipe & cat delete, ECMlink V3 Full, AEM Wideband, AEM Volts, K&N Air Filter.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

What has recently changed? Standout for me is new fuel pump. Did this JUST start happening when you installed? Fire the fuel pump manually before starting and see what happens. if it starts quickly your problem is fuel pressure related. Others have stated it above. I would start with what has changed recently. Parts? Weather? Did you make ANY changes in link or other repairs very recently?

 

[steve]

The IAT and ECT are within 2 degrees at the beginning and I don't have any doubt that it's about 65F when you did this in Arizona. By the end of your log IAT is still about 65F and the ECT has risen to 153F which also doesn't seem unreasonable.

I don't like what I saw in the ECMLink settings. I would expect pretty much stock settings for a pretty much stock car but you have changed several direct maps (Coolant Fuel, Openloop Fueling, and Timing) and funny settings for Rev limit, Coasting FC offset = 0, Disable launch = 0, enabling simulate idle switch (your seems to be working), MAF comp table looks strange, you have idle air clamp turned on, The FPS and EGR solenoids are disabled, and all DTC's are disabled.

Your first attempt to start dumps huge amount of fuel if you watch the injector pulse widths. Once you get it to start that stops and as the ECT rises the ECU attempts to go into closed loop but the O2 sensor never reacts (time for a new one). You didn't save many of the variables you logged and ISC position is one of those so I can't see if it's tracking but you finally get your idle speed down close to your 950 RPM setting. Then you start playing with the throttle and you can see the FC offset come into play as the ECU cuts fuel each time you open and close the throttle.

I'm also confused by why there is a 1G CAS here? I see a 2G intake so I assume a 2G Head.

 

[bo0st2]

-Does gas cap smell like gas, do you run pump gas or re85?

-contamination in fuel?

-Check spark plugs and wires and that wiring order is correct, and post pictures of spark plugs

-check fuel pressure and let us know how many psi/bar it is

-check that timing marks are on spot

-check dry compression (take fuel pump relay out of disconnect injectors) on each cylinder and let us know how much each cylinder had compression

-check wet compression (add a tiny bit of ATF in each cylinder), post results here

For me it sounds like water in gas, bad fuel pressure or bad compression issue

In the video it also sounds like timing belt is too tight and you either have a lot of air in your PS linens or you PS pump is about to go out

Thanks for the reply.

I mean yeah the gas cap smells like gas if I take it off and put it in my hand to smell it, my Dad might've spilled some gas when filling it up the other day because he's older & clumsy

Car runs 91 Premium pump gas (no E85)

I'm a newbie at this stuff so not able to check dry & wet compression myself but I had someone do it before & they said it was good.

Car runs good on the highway when warmed up.

It feels really healthy & pulls nicely to me at least for having the stock turbo.

I just poured a fresh 5 gallons of 91 pump gas in it the other day so the gas is pretty fresh too.

The timing belt being tight would surprise me but I guess it's definitely possible, I had a Mitsubishi Dealer do that so if they f***ed up who can I trust now

I would check the fuel pressure when cold and hot, and the base ignition timing first.
If you have never set the base timing before, you may have the base timing too retarded. That would cause a hard start, would be harder especially when the engine is cold

Thanks for the reply, is there a guide on how to check that stuff

What has recently changed? Standout for me is new fuel pump. Did this JUST start happening when you installed? Fire the fuel pump manually before starting and see what happens. if it starts quickly your problem is fuel pressure related. Others have stated it above. I would start with what has changed recently. Parts? Weather? Did you make ANY changes in link or other repairs very recently?

Thanks for the reply.

Not much has recently changed it has just been sitting for a while (3 - 4 years) so my neighbor helped me put in a new fuel pump, we cleaned out the K&N intake, gave it some fresh gas and an oil change too.

No other recent changes in link or repairs.

Car has always had problems starting really. Even before the fuel pump install it would take a couple tries to get it to start & then it would idle poorly for a bit.

I took it to the dealer a long time ago and they did the timing belt & some other stuff but the car still had problems & they continued to try & upsell me shit like a new ECU.

I then sent my ECU in to ECMLink they did the Link 3 install & sent it back to me.

Then I had some DSMtuner from here (Donniekak) he came over a long long time ago and did some things to the car (added 1G CAS) and he really made it sound a lot better.

How do I perform that step where we fire the fuel pump manually is that in ECMLink?

The IAT and ECT are within 2 degrees at the beginning and I don't have any doubt that it's about 65F when you did this in Arizona. By the end of your log IAT is still about 65F and the ECT has risen to 153F which also doesn't seem unreasonable.

I don't like what I saw in the ECMLink settings. I would expect pretty much stock settings for a pretty much stock car but you have changed several direct maps (Coolant Fuel, Openloop Fueling, and Timing) and funny settings for Rev limit, Coasting FC offset = 0, Disable launch = 0, enabling simulate idle switch (your seems to be working), MAF comp table looks strange, you have idle air clamp turned on, The FPS and EGR solenoids are disabled, and all DTC's are disabled.

Your first attempt to start dumps huge amount of fuel if you watch the injector pulse widths. Once you get it to start that stops and as the ECT rises the ECU attempts to go into closed loop but the O2 sensor never reacts (time for a new one). You didn't save many of the variables you logged and ISC position is one of those so I can't see if it's tracking but you finally get your idle speed down close to your 950 RPM setting. Then you start playing with the throttle and you can see the FC offset come into play as the ECU cuts fuel each time you open and close the throttle.

I'm also confused by why there is a 1G CAS here? I see a 2G intake so I assume a 2G Head.

Thanks for the reply!

Yes it was a bit chilly outside when this was performed.

The reason it has a 1G CAS is because someone from here ( donniekak) added a 1G CAS to the car and it made things better after he did that. Dude came over to my house & really helped out. If he was still in Arizona I'd be paying him more to work on the car but I think he moved.

I set the rev limit to like 6,000 so no idiot would over-rev it while emissions testing but I don't think that would have anything to do with the car starting rough when cold?

I can start the car, let it warm up, then walk away for 30 - 50 minutes and come back and it starts up the first time so I didn't think it would be a setting issue but if things are seeming off let me know I'm here to learn more.

I will try and save those other variables in a new log thanks for pointing that out!

Deff fuel related. Is the car on e85? You can confirm this by spraying some starter fluid inside the manifold to see if it fires faster. Also where in the country are you? Its been pretty cold even in california. I would check and make sure the coolant temp sensor is reading correctly on ecmlink and doesnt think its freezing or running hot. The coolant temp reading should be pretty close to what the ambient temp is in your area.

Thanks for the reply! I agree with you in saying it's something with the fuel.

No the car is running 91 Premium Pump gas

Currently in Arizona

The coolant temp sensor seems to be running correct as it's close to ambient temp

On the first video it also sounds like you have bad engine mount or something wacking on the chassis

Seconds video it sounds like you have backfire through valves on both intake and exhaust side, badly seated/damaged valves or timing is bad? and almost like starter motor is still running after engine starts, does not sound healthy at all

Thanks for the reply! Wouldn't surprise me if a mount or two were needing to be replaced. When you say timing is bad you mean the timing belt right?

 

[Sirius1995]

Thanks for the reply! Wouldn't surprise me if a mount or two were needing to be replaced. When you say timing is bad you mean the timing belt right?

Timing as camshaft and crankshaft timing marks are not in line

Thanks for the reply! I agree with you in saying it's something with the fuel.

No the car is running 91 Premium Pump gas

Currently in Arizona

The coolant temp sensor seems to be running correct as it's close to ambient temp

Even if it's premium, make sure you get the gas from station which is toptier certified, otherwise it might be bad gas as there's no regulations for it.

These cars don't have ambient sensors, if the ECT shows 50°F when car is running, that's broken and needs to be fixed

 

[pauleyman]

Lemme take another shot. Starts hard, eventually smooths out. All subquent starts are good within a reasonable time frame. Let it sit overnight and it starts all over again?
Pull the plugs in the morning and smell. Does one plug/cyl smell like gas and others don't?

 

[bo0st2]

Lemme take another shot. Starts hard, eventually smooths out. All subquent starts are good within a reasonable time frame. Let it sit overnight and it starts all over again?
Pull the plugs in the morning and smell. Does one plug/cyl smell like gas and others don't?

Yeah you nailed it man but if I let it sit overnight,
depending on how long that is it’ll be cold and a take a few attempts to start up.

Do I really gotta pull the plugs? It’s had new spark plugs put in recently

There’s no settings in ECMlink we can play around with to make this bad boy start easier?

there has to be a setting or something to where we can add fuel or something when it’s cold

 

[92AWDHX40]

The plugs is how you can tell if have fuel and on what cylinders. Takes a few minutes to pull.

 

[bo0st2]

The plugs is how you can tell if have fuel and on what cylinders. Takes a few minutes to pull.

Alright and where do we go from there

I would think it has good fuel if it’s able to startup once warm you know what I mean.

Any of you guys in Phoenix willing to make some money trying to figure this out?

I’d like to pay someone that knows more than me to just fix this

 

[pauleyman]

Yeah you nailed it man but if I let it sit overnight,
depending on how long that is it’ll be cold and a take a few attempts to start up.

Do I really gotta pull the plugs? It’s had new spark plugs put in recently

There’s no settings in ECMlink we can play around with to make this bad boy start easier?

there has to be a setting or something to where we can add fuel or something when it’s cold

Where I'm going with this is you could have a leaky fuel injector and what will happen is when it sits fuel pools in the one cylinder. Not alot but just enough where it coughs sputters and gives you grief for a few attempts. Then once it's warm it doesn't do that again until the car is cold and the cycle repeats. Easy to test for it as I have described.
I can change plugs in under 10 min.
This is simply another potential diagnostic procedure and an easy one.
If you find this to be true the solution is pull the injectors and have them professionally cleaned.

 

[bo0st2]

Where I'm going with this is you could have a leaky fuel injector and what will happen is when it sits fuel pools in the one cylinder. Not alot but just enough where it coughs sputters and gives you grief for a few attempts. Then once it's warm it doesn't do that again until the car is cold and the cycle repeats. Easy to test for it as I have described.
I can change plugs in under 10 min.
This is simply another potential diagnostic procedure and an easy one.
If you find this to be true the solution is pull the injectors and have them professionally cleaned.

Thanks for the info! I was always planning on upgrading the injectors in the future so should I just buy another new pair right now and kinda knock this out of the park?

 

[92AWDHX40]

Or have them cleaned, its up to you call up a vendor or fic, and talk to them about your options.

 

[steve]

Thanks for the info! I was always planning on upgrading the injectors in the future so should I just buy another new pair right now and kinda knock this out of the park?

It doesn't make much sense to me to buy parts before you diagnose they are an issue.

 

[pauleyman]

Thanks for the info! I was always planning on upgrading the injectors in the future so should I just buy another new pair right now and kinda knock this out of the park?

No. Diagnose the issue first. Buying parts before you know the cause isn't a good idea. Additionally you can't just put bigger injectors in. You need something to control them.

Your profile is private. We know nothing about yiur car. Mods etc.

 

[bo0st2]

It doesn't make much sense to me to buy parts before you diagnose they are an issue.

Not with that logic but if you plan on having reputable solid parts in the car & upgrading for more power in the future then it does. I wasn't going to stay on the T25 forever. Also I want this car to be reliable so newer parts sound good to me.

Your profile is private. We know nothing about yiur car. Mods etc.

Should be viewable to members now. Thanks for pointing that out. Car is pretty much stock besides 1G CAS, Greedy Bov, Megan Racing Downpipe & cat delete, ECMlink V3 Full, AEM Wideband, AEM Volts, K&N Air Filter.

 

[92AWDHX40]

If its stock then keep what you have have those injectors cleaned out. Its a cheap service for now to get them cleaned and a peace of mind/ Who knows how dirty they are. it may take time to figure it out, old parts 30 years of for most part and used parts.
You have to start somewhere and work from there.

 

[bo0st2]

If its stock then keep what you have have those injectors cleaned out. Its a cheap service for now to get them cleaned and a peace of mind/ Who knows how dirty they are. it may take time to figure it out, old parts 30 years of for most part and used parts.
You have to start somewhere and work from there.

It's stock for now but it's going to be upgraded in the future, no crazy plans but at least 350 - 400HP in the future so I was told these 950CC would be good

https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/DSM-EVO-(1-9)/IS126-0950

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I'm going to have some $ in the future so I don't mind spending a bit on some injectors & having that peace of mind, do you think those would work well with ECMLink? I heard that retailer will give me a lifetime warranty so it's one less thing I have to worry about parts wise.

 

[pauleyman]

Heres the thing. You may need those later but right now lets say you buy them and it doesn't fix your problem. Now you're out 400$ and you still have an issue. Instead spend a half an hour (that includes cleanup) and find out for sure THEN buy what you need or have those cleaned etc. If you're seriously concerned about pulling spark plugs because you just changed them then you're in for a lot of hurt owning a modified DSM. You don't have to replace them. Just take them out, smell and put them back in.

 

[92AWDHX40]

You learn like we all do trial and error, if this is new to you dsms or cars, you picked a tricky platform with no parts really avaiable or rare, or expenseive. You will learn to figure out a lot on your own if you keep it or get involved in it. I was around when i detailed them in college in 94 for years ,. I saw them with stickers on them and on the lot, and trucks so get ready to ge dirty, spend money, we can only help you so much, we are trying to guide you, pull the plugs first.

 

[dwb]

How do I perform that step where we fire the fuel pump manually is that in ECMLink?

Activate this for a few seconds before attempting to start. Only try this as diagnostics to prime/pressurized the fuel system. Do not leave it activated permanently.

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Do you ever smell raw fuel, indicating a fuel leak?
Looking at your log, the TimingMaxOct, OpenLoopMaxOct, OpenLoopMinOct maps are all over the place. If it's as you say, i.e. mostly stock, then try reverting them back to stock. Use the stock settings toggle button on the tool bar

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to pull up stock maps. Then copy to ECU.
Also take a look at your MAF Comp tab (0-400 hz should likely be zero):

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[bo0st2]

Activate this for a few seconds before attempting to start. Only try this as diagnostics to prime/pressurized the fuel system. Do not leave it activated permanently.

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Do you ever smell raw fuel, indicating a fuel leak?
Looking at your log, the TimingMaxOct, OpenLoopMaxOct, OpenLoopMinOct maps are all over the place. If it's as you say, i.e. mostly stock, then try reverting them back to stock. Use the stock settings toggle button on the tool bar

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

to pull up stock maps. Then copy to ECU.
Also take a look at your MAF Comp tab (0-400 hz should likely be zero):

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You mean I should tick "Activate fuel pump (always on)" under Devices & diagnostics?

No I don't ever smell raw fuel.

It smells a little rough at times because of the cat-delete but doesn't smell like raw fuel though.

Thanks for pointing that stuff out! Will try that out ASAP & report back!