2G Takes like 5 tries to start 2G GST

[bo0st2]

Long story short, whenever the car is cold and hasn't been started it takes like 5 attempts to get it to start. Then it runs like shit for a while until it warms up.

Uploaded a couple videos over here so you guys could get a better idea of what’s going on

Here’s a view from inside the car, notice the coolant temp:

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It started after the 5th attempt.

Here’s a view from outside the car (same interaction):

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Battery is good, I just recently cleaned the air filter too. Fuel pump is new too.

I think someone told me I might have to replace the alternator but I don't think it would cause this behavior right?

Car behaves differently once warm. You can see at like 0:37 seconds in this video I turn the car off and back on like 3 times, it starts up just fine once its warm.

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Here's a log from ECMLink that I took while doing this:

Car is pretty much stock besides 1G CAS, Greedy Bov, Megan Racing Downpipe & cat delete, ECMlink V3 Full, AEM Wideband, AEM Volts, K&N Air Filter.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[pauleyman]

Thats what I was getting at earlier. Prime the pump BEFORE starting to crank it first thing in the morning. At least you'll have fuel pressure already. If it still sputters I would bet you have leaked some fuel into a cylinder and it takes a moment to clear it. Smell your oil too. If it smells strongly of fuel that's a good indicator also. Real bad for the engine also. Thins the oil down.

 

[dwb]

You mean I should tick "Activate fuel pump (always on)" under Devices & diagnostics?

Yes. Then you should hear the fuel pump turn on.
I ran a fuel pump cutoff switch in my 1g (for anti-theft) and it would behave almost exactly as your first video (but never start) if I forgot to engage the switch.

 

[steve]

hold up....you've had ECMlink this whole time???? Post up a startup log. Do you even know if it's set to stock settings now?

It was there from the first post but hiding on a unusable link to a google drive. I pulled it down and fixed the post then commented on what I saw in post #7.

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Looking at your log, the TimingMaxOct, OpenLoopMaxOct, OpenLoopMinOct maps are all over the place. If it's as you say, i.e. mostly stock, then try reverting them back to stock. Use the stock settings toggle button on the tool bar

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to pull up stock maps. Then copy to ECU.

Also take a look at your MAF Comp tab (0-400 hz should likely be zero):

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DWB showed me that you have to provide pictures for it to sink in...

 

[bo0st2]

Thats what I was getting at earlier. Prime the pump BEFORE starting to crank it first thing in the morning. At least you'll have fuel pressure already. If it still sputters I would bet you have leaked some fuel into a cylinder and it takes a moment to clear it. Smell your oil too. If it smells strongly of fuel that's a good indicator also. Real bad for the engine also. Thins the oil down.

Thanks for the clarification! I’ll try that out next time I go to start it.

I smelt the oil and it looks and smells pretty nice.

It was just recently changed with some Vavine full synthetic about 2 weeks ago.

​

Heres the thing. You may need those later but right now lets say you buy them and it doesn't fix your problem. Now you're out 400$ and you still have an issue. Instead spend a half an hour (that includes cleanup) and find out for sure THEN buy what you need or have those cleaned etc. If you're seriously concerned about pulling spark plugs because you just changed them then you're in for a lot of hurt owning a modified DSM. You don't have to replace them. Just take them out, smell and put them back in.

I'm looking for peace of mind. A couple new parts gets me that peace of mind that it won't break down on me on the highway on a long drive. Also I'm the worst when it comes to cars.

Not all of us are mechanically inclined or have the right tools/knowledge to do everything so I don't mind shelling out a few dollars here & there to mechanics and people that do a good job. This has always been a long term project not a daily driver I use to get to work or anything so I'll take my time with it, buy new parts, and find people willing to work on it for me.

You learn like we all do trial and error, if this is new to you dsms or cars, you picked a tricky platform with no parts really avaiable or rare, or expenseive. You will learn to figure out a lot on your own if you keep it or get involved in it. I was around when i detailed them in college in 94 for years ,. I saw them with stickers on them and on the lot, and trucks so get ready to ge dirty, spend money, we can only help you so much, we are trying to guide you, pull the plugs first.

I agree it is a tricky platform and as they age a lot of parts are becoming harder to find. I'll get someone to pull the plugs when ever possible. I'm not good with that or else I'd be doing it myself. When it comes to cars I can change a battery here, a tire there and maybe a few filters depending on where they're located but my knowledge is pretty limited to that.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Your MAF compensation table should not look like that. You octane tables are FUBAR. Load and save these settings, then log how it acts. The more you have displayed in the log the more we can see to help. That being said it sounds like your losing fuel pressure. Could be a leaking injector but odds are not likely on that. It is likely leaking the pressure back into the tank which is why it is taking so long to refill the lines and pressurize the rail. If you prime the system as other have said nad it solves it, then this is likely your issue. Another thing is update your firmware for ECMlink.

v3firmwarehowto [ECMTuning - wiki]

www.ecmtuning.com

 

[bo0st2]

Your MAF compensation table should not look like that. You octane tables are FUBAR. Load and save these settings, then log how it acts. The more you have displayed in the log the more we can see to help. That being said it sounds like your losing fuel pressure. Could be a leaking injector but odds are not likely on that. It is likely leaking the pressure back into the tank which is why it is taking so long to refill the lines and pressurize the rail. If you prime the system as other have said nad it solves it, then this is likely your issue. Another thing is update your firmware for ECMlink.

v3firmwarehowto [ECMTuning - wiki]

www.ecmtuning.com

Thank you for pointing everything out I really appreciate it!

I went ahead & updated the firmware on ECMLink.

I also tried turning on the activate fuel pump setting

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but it still took like 4 -5 tries to get it to start.

No big deal still started up in like 30 seconds, I will fix the MAF table & those other settings and will report back soon.

 

[bo0st2]

Activate this for a few seconds before attempting to start. Only try this as diagnostics to prime/pressurized the fuel system. Do not leave it activated permanently.

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Do you ever smell raw fuel, indicating a fuel leak?
Looking at your log, the TimingMaxOct, OpenLoopMaxOct, OpenLoopMinOct maps are all over the place. If it's as you say, i.e. mostly stock, then try reverting them back to stock. Use the stock settings toggle button on the tool bar

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to pull up stock maps. Then copy to ECU.
Also take a look at your MAF Comp tab (0-400 hz should likely be zero):

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I tried reverting back to stock & then this happened: (car starts and dies now)

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I think someone put those settings there for a reason.

I don't remember it being me so it was probably a couple DSM guys that worked on the car after I had ECMLink installed.

I'm going to have to find a professional tuner to come over to my house & do this, because if I keep taking advice from people on the Internet I could be messing up my car more than it is already.

I know you guys are just trying to help so I appreciate it but it doesn't seem to be working on this 2G GST.

Maybe its not as stock as I think it is? Maybe it has a boost leak or something?


I had to revert back to the old settings to get it to start.. (luckily had a screenshot of these or else IDK what I'd do)

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If you’re in Arizona and you wanna test your tuning knowledge and get paid a fair amount let me know.

If I touch the car I'm gonna mess it up more than it already is.

Right now I'm grateful that it starts, runs, drives, so it just needs a pro from here to dial things to absolute perfection.

I want this thing to run better than it did when it came off the lot in 1995. That's the end goal so I need someone reliable & professional to get me there.

 

[bo0st2]

Your MAF compensation table should not look like that. You octane tables are FUBAR. Load and save these settings, then log how it acts. The more you have displayed in the log the more we can see to help. That being said it sounds like your losing fuel pressure. Could be a leaking injector but odds are not likely on that. It is likely leaking the pressure back into the tank which is why it is taking so long to refill the lines and pressurize the rail. If you prime the system as other have said nad it solves it, then this is likely your issue. Another thing is update your firmware for ECMlink.

v3firmwarehowto [ECMTuning - wiki]

www.ecmtuning.com

If I mess with the MAF tables it only gets worse.

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Car starts & sputters then died. I had to revert back to the settings in the screenshot.

I did load the other settings successfully.

Besides that, I'm gonna leave it alone & find a professional in my area that does house visits.

I'm not going to become a master tuner/mechanic myself anytime soon so it's wise for me to hire someone who is already a master mechanic/tuner.

 

[dwb]

I understand that you don't necessarily trust an internet forum, but you need to realize that a general mechanic, who's not well versed in DSMs, can only do basic troubleshooting and often times will just throw unnecessary parts at it and still not fix the issue. This forum has members who's been there, done that, and collectively have hundreds of years of experience on these platforms. We all WANT to help and nobody is trying to be malicious. We can't help you if you refuse to put in the effort and you will quickly alienate yourself here. Refusing to check spark plugs is a perfect example.

That being said, *I* really think you have a fuel delivery problem. Did you prime the fuel system with ECMLink first? And did you hear the pump turn on? What about your timing and fuel maps, did you reset those back to stock? You need to get EVERYTHING back to a stock baseline before much troubleshooting or even tuning can take place.
BTW, its really easy to reset your settings back to a previous state if you have a saved log file. Open that saved log file like the one you posted here originally. Then click on "ECU config (log)" or "Direct access (log)" (which ever one that has the settings you want to look at/change).

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Go to the tab you need to reset, click "copy to ECU"

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Alternatively, you can use "Copy all to ECU" to copy every setting from every tab back to ECU.

Furthermore, on the Direct Access configuration, it will show in bold what configurations have been modified from stock:

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Another simple setting that can sometimes help with cold starts is to tick "Enable normal (factory) settings" of the fuel pressure solenoid tab (this helps raise the base fuel pressure under certain circumstances, as long as you still have the factory FPS hooked up).

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[Diamond Star Werks]

If I mess with the MAF tables it only gets worse.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Car starts & sputters then died. I had to revert back to the settings in the screenshot.

I did load the other settings successfully.

Besides that, I'm gonna leave it alone & find a professional in my area that does house visits.

I'm not going to become a master tuner/mechanic myself anytime soon so it's wise for me to hire someone who is already a master mechanic/tuner.

What's happening when you are jumping those. MAF comp settings way up is adding more fuel for a certain airflow signal from the MAF. So if it runs with them jacked up but not with them zeroed out then you have a lack of fuel supply. Only reason it starts up is because of the large increase in fueling the ECU does while cranking. You can see this amount in the DA tables under cranking fuel adjustments.

 

[bo0st2]

What's happening when you are jumping those. MAF comp settings way up is adding more fuel for a certain airflow signal from the MAF. So if it runs with them jacked up but not with them zeroed out then you have a lack of fuel supply. Only reason it starts up is because of the large increase in fueling the ECU does while cranking. You can see this amount in the DA tables under cranking fuel adjustments.

how does one fix that lack of fuel supply if they wanted to?

I understand that you don't necessarily trust an internet forum, but you need to realize that a general mechanic, who's not well versed in DSMs, can only do basic troubleshooting and often times will just throw unnecessary parts at it and still not fix the issue. This forum has members who's been there, done that, and collectively have hundreds of years of experience on these platforms. We all WANT to help and nobody is trying to be malicious. We can't help you if you refuse to put in the effort and you will quickly alienate yourself here. Refusing to check spark plugs is a perfect example.

That being said, *I* really think you have a fuel delivery problem. Did you prime the fuel system with ECMLink first? And did you hear the pump turn on? What about your timing and fuel maps, did you reset those back to stock? You need to get EVERYTHING back to a stock baseline before much troubleshooting or even tuning can take place.
BTW, its really easy to reset your settings back to a previous state if you have a saved log file. Open that saved log file like the one you posted here originally. Then click on "ECU config (log)" or "Direct access (log)" (which ever one that has the settings you want to look at/change).

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Go to the tab you need to reset, click "copy to ECU"

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Alternatively, you can use "Copy all to ECU" to copy every setting from every tab back to ECU.

Furthermore, on the Direct Access configuration, it will show in bold what configurations have been modified from stock:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Another simple setting that can sometimes help with cold starts is to tick "Enable normal (factory) settings" of the fuel pressure solenoid tab (this helps raise the base fuel pressure under certain circumstances, as long as you still have the factory FPS hooked up).

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Thanks for all the screenshots! I’m going to find a DSM mechanic that’ll know what to do.

 

[pauleyman]

how does one fix that lack of fuel supply if they wanted to?

You diagnose why you have a lack of fuel supply. We already suggested you likely have a leaky injector and it appears somebody tried to jack with ECMlink settings rather than finding the root cause. The car will never drive right until the root cause is found. Check fuel pressure, check for leaks.
Again, pull the spark plugs and it's pretty indicative of either you do or do not have a leaky injector.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

how does one fix that lack of fuel supply if they wanted to?


Thanks for all the screenshots! I’m going to find a DSM mechanic that’ll know what to do.

You have to find the cause, you and or a mechanic needs to run a fuel pressure test, check for vacuum leaks (leaks after the throttle body), check for boost leaks (leaks before the throttle body but after the turbo), check your spark plugs( if there's a leaky injector one plug will need significantly blacker than the others. It would likely also be wet after the first 3 failed start up attempts), and also a compression/leak down test to check the health of each cylinder.

It's important that the car be tested with your MAF comp zeroed out so your issue isn't masked by the added fueling.

 

[bo0st2]

You diagnose why you have a lack of fuel supply. We already suggested you likely have a leaky injector and it appears somebody tried to jack with ECMlink settings rather than finding the root cause. The car will never drive right until the root cause is found. Check fuel pressure, check for leaks.
Again, pull the spark plugs and it's pretty indicative of either you do or do not have a leaky injector.

I got you thanks for the info.

Just so you know, it drives right after 3 mins of warming up right now, I wonder who jacked with those setting.

@donniekak you remember touching those after adding the 1G CAS?

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[pauleyman]

If it doesn't run right at immediate startup there is still something wrong.

 

[bo0st2]

If it doesn't run right at immediate startup there is still something wrong.

My neighbor helped me out, replaced a rubber hose somewhere & now it just fires right up.

I'm trying to attach a new log but I don't see where to upload it? am I blind or what? this what I see where would I click to upload the log?

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[steve]

Use add photos.

 

[chrysler kid]

My neighbor helped me out, replaced a rubber hose somewhere & now it just fires right up.

I'm trying to attach a new log but I don't see where to upload it? am I blind or what? this what I see where would I click to upload the log?

you should probably just have your neighbor come over and show you how to do it again and stop wasting our time

 

[bo0st2]

Use add photos.

Thank you for the reply but that doesn't work.

When clicking add photos, it'll only let you add photos.

It won't support a .elg file.

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I remember now, the only way I was able to get the log on the site was to upload it to Google Drive, then someone edited my post and attached it. But there should be a better way for users.

Here's a new link for the log:

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The STFT should be around 0 right?

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the AirFlowPerRev comes right down to .28 once warmed up

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I'd drive the car and give a cruise log but just waiting to change the power steering pump.

you should probably just have your neighbor come over and show you how to do it again and stop wasting our time

maybe you could come over? I wouldn't mind!

 

[curt-s]

Just drag an .elg file right into the reply text edit box

 

[bo0st2]

Could be a leaking injector but odds are not likely on that.

I think you were right on the leaky injector!

I changed the fuel injectors to FIC 1220CC low z

Had some help from my neighbor to pop them in..

Next time you know, I inputted the settings into ECMLink & car starts up first try no issue.

Also I was finally able to 0 out the MAF comp!

New parts will always help out IMO!

 

[steve]

Thank you for the reply but that doesn't work.

Works for me.