Resolved Spyder No Start... Potential Culprit...

[spyderdrifter]

Yes, I know there are MANY posts regarding this, but not every situation is the same. I'm looking for thoughts, not necessarily answers. I've gotten my spyder to the point of start-up. However it will only crank.

Mods/parts are as follows, but also posted in the build thread:
6-bolt bottom end
2G head
OEM crank
Eagle Rods
Wiseco 9:1.0 pistons
Kelford 272 cams
HKS Cam gears and timing belt
New Gates timing tensioner
No balance shafts
FP Turbo and manifold

I think that's it for the parts that could potentially matter. Aside from Walbro 255 pump. I'm simply just trying to get the engine to start. I've double checked fuel and spark, and tested the 1G CAS. It's all functional as it should be.

I did a compression test a week or 2 ago and got low numbers. My assumption is that's because the engine has never fired up, and therefore the rings have never seated. Am I correct in thinking that, or completely wrong? Wet test did yield slightly higher numbers, but not by much. Service limit for a 6-bolt is 121psi I think, and my dry numbers where 125 to 130, and highest wet I think was 150.

The short block was initially built in 2018, and just sorta sat for a couple years sealed away, and then built the rest in the beginning of 2021, then again sat around until last year when I got the Spyder. Could the compression numbers be this low purely from sitting for years without running? Should I just pull the engine back out and replace the rings and rebuild again?

I'm being patient with this since I haven't messed with these cars in a few years, but it's still frustrating.

 

[DSMPT]

My assumption is that's because the engine has never fired up, and therfore the rings have never seated. Am I correct in thinking that, or completely wrong? Wet test did yield slightly higher numbers, but not by much. Service limit for a 6-bolt is 121psi I think, and my dry numbers where 125 to 130, and highest wet I think was 150. The short block was initially built in 2018

Could the compression numbers be this low purely from sitting for years without running?

The 6 bolt service limit numbers are when you have the 7.8CR stock pistons with the stock cams, the stock valve timing and the stock head gasket.
Many things would affect the compression test number, such as cam profile, valve timing, cranking rpm, valve sealing condition etc. 125-130 psi should be enough to fire up though.

I've double checked fuel and spark, and tested the 1G CAS. It's all functional as it should be.

If that's true, then what you are missing is the timing, especially spark.
One of most common causes for no start at the initial startup is the spark plug wire's ordering. I would start to check from there. And would make sure again if the valve timing is correct and if all sensors are plugged. And all of them are fine, then I would go deeper diagnosis.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Being that this is a 97 model with 97 ECU, I have the plug wires oriented in the OEM configuration, per what is required for a 6-bolt in a 97+ model. I have been over that many times, and even gone as far as inverting the order to the 95-96 orientation just to rule that out. Still no luck.

I have checked the CAS orientation and it is lined up correctly as well. Re-checked mechanical timing, was correct. I've even swapped the cam sensor plug with the A/C plug just in the off chance I got those wrong. Nothing.

The engine cranks strong, but still will not fire up. Fresh fuel as well, and the fuel is reaching the rail and injecting. I'll probably run through all the connectors yet again tomorrow. All fuses are good as well.

If it makes any difference, the OBD port is dead and my scanner will not communicate with the car. I haven't yet looked into that problem. I pulled the ECU out tonight, and it looks like it has never been touched or opened. Nothing inside leaking or burnt. Looks nearly new. I might hook up a spare ECU tomorrow and try starting again. But my spares are all 2GA ECUs, so I'll have to invert the spark and fuel, so that's why I haven't done that yet.

 

[motomattx]

No need to invert fuel to try the 95' ecu, just invert the spark plug wires on the coils, that would allow it to start at least.

 

[pauleyman]

How did you verify fuel in rail?
How did you verify its injecting?

 

[spyderdrifter]

How did you verify fuel in rail?
How did you verify its injecting?

I have pulled the feed line off the rail, and had fuel flow back out. Last night to check the injector firing, I pulled the CAS off and spun the sensor by hand and heard the injectors in addition to seeing the coils fire. When I pulled the rail and injectors off the head, there was fuel in the injector holes. Not a lot, but enough to see that fuel had been sprayed.

 

[pauleyman]

Do you have the history of this car? Unless you saw the car running prior to this work I would suspect ECU.
Did you check fuel pressure?
Did you verify you have both an intake and exhaust cam?
Did you bleed the lifters upon new install?
Are you sure it's a 97 ECU?

 

[19Eclipse90]

Unless I straight missed it, I haven’t seen the coolant temp sensor mentioned yet. May be worth trying a new/different one and, note, it does not have to be installed to try - just connected to the harness.

It should be slim number of suspects if you truly have fuel, spark, and timing is right. Like Hiroshi stated, those compression numbers should not keep it from starting.

 

[pauleyman]

Unless I straight missed it, I haven’t seen the coolant temp sensor mentioned yet. May be worth trying a new/different one and, note, it does not have to be installed to try.

It should be slim number of suspects if you truly have fuel, spark, and timing is right. Like Hiroshi stated, those compression numbers should not keep it from starting.

I'm in agreement. How about a datalog? Do you have a way to do this?

 

[DSMPT]

I have checked the CAS orientation

Usually that wouldn't cause no start as long as if you have the sparks in the right sequence. At least it would fire up if that's the only problem.

my spares are 2GA ecus, so I'll have to invert the spark and fuel, so thats why I haven't done that yet.

Like @motomattx said. Just the spark plug wires.

I'll probably run through all the connectors yet again tomorrow.

I might hook up a spare ecu tomorrow and try starting again.

Yeah and we will see.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Do you have the history of this car? Unless you saw the car running prior to this work I would suspect ECU.
Did you check fuel pressure?
Did you verify you have both an intake and exhaust cam?
Did you bleed the lifters upon new install?
Are you sure it's a 97 ECU?

I have no way to measure fuel pressure yet. Only the OEM setup minus the pump, filter and some lines.

I do have the proper cams, and the lifters were well bled prior. No mechanical history unfortunately, and no way to datalog. I wanted to get the car running before spending more on upgrades.

Unless I straight missed it, I haven’t seen the coolant temp sensor mentioned yet. May be worth trying a new/different one and, note, it does not have to be installed to try - just connected to the harness.

I hadn't thought of the ECT, so I tried it with no change. Swapped ECUs and plug wires with them, also no change.

 

[motomattx]

If you spray starting fluid into the throttle body, or a vacuum port and try to crank it will it try to start? I'm guessing that you haven't tried that yet, doing that would eliminate a fuel issue.

 

[spyderdrifter]

If you spray starting fluid into the throttle body, or a vacuum port and try to crank it will it try to start? I'm guessing that you haven't tried that yet, doing that would eliminate a fuel issue.

I have considered this, but I've always hated using it. The idea has been on my mind for a few days, so I'll probably give it a shot on Sunday, I'm working a double shift tomorrow so won't have the time due to that.

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

Use the starting fluid with lubricant additives if it worries you. That way if it doesn't fire you won't be washing the cylinder walls.

 

[DSMPT]

If what you describe was true, at least it should have had the initial explosion, If not, you may be missing something, like the fuel is old, spark plugs are wet or so. Maybe you should upload a video of while cranking. The sound may give us some idea.

 

[spyderdrifter]

One Step Closer...

I bought some starting fluid as I said I would. Took a while to find a suitable spot to spray. I wanted to spray straight into the intake manifold, but the vac lines weren't the greatest to spray through. I settled on the air filter pipe, and it worked out. I have gotten the engine to briefly start, and then die. During this I happened to notice I didn't install the Feul Lab filter I had. I thought I did, but that was a fail. So I got that swapped thinking maybe the oem filter was restricting flow even though fuel did flow. No change. These are the best videos I took of the start ups. Very minimal, but it's something, and can at least point me to there still being a fuel delivery problem. I can track that down confidently. These videos are the longest it stayed running before dieing as it ran out of start fluid, and I don't have a 2nd pair of hands for help.

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[steve]

With it running using starting fluid the finger is back pointing at fuel delivery.

Pull the return line off the regulator, route it to a bucket, and run the pump with the check connector that's under the hood. Check the flow/volume. Since nothing is going anywhere else all the fuel that's being pump should be returning to the tank after the first second it takes to build pressure. If it's not going like a race horse look at why. If you have a strong flow look at the injection side.

 

[spyderdrifter]

I know where to find the fuel check under the hood, but this car doesn't seem to have one, unless the connection is different from 2GA.

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[19Eclipse90]

All my diagrams show it just downstream from the wiper motor electrical connection. Like, more behind the throttle body in your photo. Black, single pin connector with thinner gauge black wire with blue stripe.

Worst case, do it directly at the connector to the fuel pump (outside the tank, to be sure).

 

[spyderdrifter]

I appreciate the help and suggestions you all have provided. The spyder has officially had its first start up, and she sounds healthy enough. I didn't want to run it long as I only have oil and fuel in the car for fluids. Didn't want to dump in gear oil or coolant in case I had to pull the engine back out. Now I can progress with everything else.

I tinkered with the check connector and got nothing from the feed line. Turned off my music and only heard a dull click from the pump. Didn't like that since I had already put a known good pump in. That was when I still had the old fuel in the tank. So I put in the Walbro, that I had to re-search for as I thought I had installed it already, and finally got good flow from the check connector.

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So I got everything hooked up again and tried starting once more, and she fired up...

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