Possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo?

[Vetal]

Hello to everyone. This is my first post here. My question is: is it possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo? On a budget, preferably. I have it on my Nissan 1.8, trap about 114mph, and I think I've run out of turbo. Is it possible to upgrade compressor to give me some 10 lbs/min more? otherwise I would have to fab new manifold, get HX35, etc.
Thank you!

 

[BoostFrenzy]

If you are running 1.45 Bar, there should still be some power left in it. Granted it will flow a few pounds more of hot air. Maybe it's an intercooler issue? I've seen E85 guys and Meth guys both push past 25PSI (1.72 Bar) on a 16g and still make power.

I've come to the conclusion that it is your intercooler after checking your profile. Those Apexi cores are the tube and fin design. They work wonders for being able to get the air through the core and to the radiator but lack in the charge temp cooling capacity compared to a bar and plate design. If you want to stick to the setup/style you have, you may be able to upgrade to a GTR core if it'll fit.

 

[Vetal]

That is APEX, not APEXI cooler. I really don't think it's at fault at this power level. Yes I could squeeze 2-3 extra lbs/min, but that's not my goal - I need to increase it substantially, at least some 8lbs for bolt-on, or 15+ for smth. for what I will need to fab manifold and DP.
For now, I'd really like to get smth. to bolt-on. Was hoping for HX35+ BEP, but now I don't understand how to make it work cause they don't supply BEP with internal wastegates as I understood

 

[JusMX141]

Was hoping for HX35+ BEP, but now I don't understand how to make it work cause they don't supply BEP with internal wastegates as I understood

They're still out there, but I believe the main reason Bullseye is getting away from these housings is the internal gate doesn't really allow the HX35 to reach it's airflow potential, and if you're running a low enough boost level to make the internal gate work properly, you're not gaining much airflow over a smaller turbo that would spool faster.

Summed up, the Bullseye internal gate uses a giant 38mm flapper which is hard to hold shut at high boost, and the HX35 compressor loves boost levels above 25psi. Bad combination if you want to make serious power.

 

[Vetal]

So where would I find them internally-gated? I'd like to take a risk with internal WG. I spent literally 3 weeks fabricating downpipe and don't want just change everything... So far no answer from Bullseye, but TimsTurbos don't have them internally-gated - only ports, but no WGs

What about one of these turbos I posted above? Are they good for 500+ hp and decent spool?
Bullseye Power TD04B 50 Trim Bolt On Mitsu Turbocharger
Bullseye Power TD04B 57 Trim Bolt On Mitsu Turbocharger

Or I might just get HE351VE and start fabbing everything from the scratch... But that won't be easy...

 

[Vetal]

I found this 20G compressor wheel + cover at ebay:
Turbo Compressor Housing TD05H + Wheel 20G DSM 1G EVO 3 : eBay Motors (item 120540027329 end time Apr-06-10 00:30:06 PDT)
Is it good upgrade for Evo3? Will it fit at all?

 

[slowboy101]

Here is the answer...... YES!!!

 

[Vetal]

WHile researching all this, came up with another option... Buy cheap ebay 20G nad have it rebalanced. Will it be comparable to "real" 20G from MHI or FP??

 

[dsm-onster]

Wow. Whenever you see a mention of a holset turbo you get the same pointless replies that are not on topic. This guy isn't running a dsm, why bring up dsm results? So what if I brought in a comparison of results with MHI vs. holset and quantity of higher power results within the nissan I4 relm? What would be these folks' reply for such turbo as completely viable upgrade to the 16g for this guy's I4 nissan? After all, this is the same guy saying that 'we need to see results for the dsm platform' for it to 'count'. And we see the same replies by the same people that seem to contribute nothing to any discussion in which they defecate . Good luck with the campaign boys

You're still swapping on a larger compressor wheel to a tiny 16g hotside. There's no reason to try to get 20g power or 47lb/min hta power out of a 16g hotside unless you're trying to go stock appearance (which you arn't obviously).

When you can go 10.6sec with an evo3 16g then you can probably go 10.3 with a 68hta or maybe even a 20g compressor wheel upgrade to your 16g. Like Justin said. In the meantime, you need more turbine to get more flow, the 16g is very balanced: the hotside flows just enough to eak out all the flow you can from the evo3 16g compressor. Fastest spool for the most flow you can get for that compressor and for what you can get out of the hotside with a typical setup (no e8, no intercooler, meth injection, with much less weight, and perfectly balanced stall/spool/cam setups here). Can you get more out of your current turbo? Sure it's likely. Do you want to go through what it takes, since you don't have a nissan 1.8 to copy? I wouldn't think so.

You have a 1.8L; you have less volume than our 2.0L. If you're looking to increase performance with a turbo swap you thus need more boost, for a typical i4 rpm range; or you need more turbine flow (thus netting a higher total ve). All assuming your cam selections and headflow are about the same. So look at the maps of the compressors that flow more. Which have better high boost efficiency? Which turbines are proven to flow more and still remain bolton? All these would be fp3052, td06h 20g, bolton s256, bolton hx35.

EDIT: Here's the compressor maps of the above suggested turbos in order mentioned:

fp3032:

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td06h 20g:

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s256 map on the Bullseye Power website

Hx35 7blade:

 

[Vetal]

I guess the same applies to all bolt-on 50 trim turbos? Bulseye, PTE and so on?
Do you think there is more power to be extracted (without expensive mods) from my Evo3? or is 114mph on 2900lbs good enough for this turbo?
P.S. I'm going to try E85 very soon

 

[dsm-onster]

PTE bolton housings are terribly designed and many have gotten more power per psi (better flow) out of the 16g turbine housing with the td06h turbine wheel than the 5031 bolton hotside. The 5027 is something to stay away from. That has an even SMALLER turbine wheel than the 5031.

Bullseye hands down has a better bolton turbine housing for the 50-trim. I didn't bring it up. Because a bep 50-trim performs like a 20g or an hx35, except they're proven not as reliable as a 20g or flow as much as an hx35. hx35 is cheaper, 20g is more.

Your results are right on par with about 400whp. Give or take. The compressor flows around 42lb/min. Not many here know your platform enough to tell you what else you need to get more out of the 16g.

Guys around here trap 118-120 with similar weight using an evo3 16g running a sheetmetal intake manifold, something like an fp exhaust manifold, race gas or e-85, high quality intercooler, and of course a sigificant cam upgrade. For our stroke nothing less than 212 duration @ .05" lift will extract the most from the 16g hotside. . . I don't know your gearing.

 

[Vetal]

114mph and 400whp - no way. I'm thinking more like 340whp, at best. I have stock intake, 50mm throttle body, 50mm MAF, reasonably good FMIC, ebay ported manifold, self-made 3" downpipe, gearing - to 62mph@2nd, ~90@3rd. Only thing I suspect beside turbo (except all are budget parts, no high-dollar heads or manifolds etc.) are cams, they are 248 duration, 8.5mm lift, and I think any turbo MIGHT benefit from smth. "larger".

Did I got it right, that no bolt-on turbo will add more than 3-4lbs/min? That would be acceptable for $300 (ebay knock-offs) but not for $900...

 

[dsm-onster]

Oops ! I type in the wrong weight into here. You're putting out around 350hp. All of that is immaterial really. What is your logged lb/min flow? What was the Intake Air Temp and Elevation at the time? We need to know where you are on the evo3 16g map: td05hr 16g6 compressor map



*********EDIT: I added to my first post in this thread the compressor maps of each turbo I've suggested.



248 total duration? or at .05" lift?. . . That's either HUGE or TINY If that is 248 total duration, swap in some cams (what's your stroke length?) and see where you stand. You could gain as much as 40-60whp depending on the duration, and to a lesser extent the lift and ramp rate. Then you will at a relative limit of the 16g. After that, it would be more advantageous to swap to a larger affordable turbo than to come up with the money for an intake manifold upgrade and a better exhaust manifold. And cam gears to optimize the cams exactly to your setup, plus all the dyno time by someone who really knows your platform well.

Getting the most out of your setup doesn't mean changing it completely. It means altering one place or another.

The boltons that net more lb/min flow are the ones with better turbine housings AND/OR larger turbine wheels. The bolton hx35 most certainly flows more than the 16g. I saw 2lb/min more flow at 2psi lower boost and higher intake temps at. H1c (older hx35) was at 19-20. 16g was at 22psi. NO other changes. The 16g was NOT maxed out, it was only flowing 36lb/min (stock intake/exhaust mani, just upgrade cams, ic, exhaust). What ever I could do with a 16g, I could do better with the hx35. It simply flows more air at given boost and maxes out about 10lb/min higher and was seeing significantly more flow as low as 4500rpms. The 16g is such a nice turbo for us DSMers because they are relatively affordable, very reliable, and are a direct swap for a stock 14b. They are not popular for other platforms because it's easier to install bigger turbos that flow just as well just as early in the rpm range an flow more up top.

With that said, the 16g is a great turbo still. It's like the "disco potato" of the dsm world. The guys who push it so far are highly skilled and know their platform more than anyone else. And optimize it accordingly. Guys like Curt Brown, Lucas English, etc make their setups do amazing things and the "turbo is just hanging on for the ride". You could probably just p!ss on Browns block and make his rotating assembly spin. He knows more than all of us. If you willing to spend the years learning then stick with it and make a record for the 16g in your platform.

Now unless fp does something to the hta68 hotside, it's identical to the 16g hotside. You're not going to net too much more flow per the same psi. You will get more push at the absolute limit of a regular 16g, (it was worth about .3 seconds to English racing with a completely optimized and maxed out 16g setup). A td06h 20g has a larger turbine wheel to help flow; the fp3052 (half of it bolts on, you still need a custom o2 housing for your application) has a bigger turbine wheel and bigger/better turbine housing; the bolton hx35 has a bigger turbine wheel and bigger/better turbine housing; the bolton s256 has a bigger turbine wheel and bigger/better turbine housing.

 

[matthewdesigns]

Sorry I don't get this - what does it mean "run wastegate off O2 housing"? O2 housing is AFTER turbine, right? so how can it divert gases?

While Matt has you taken care of otherwise, I'll at least answer this since nobody else has.

This places an external wastegate in a separate, segregated exhaust runner below the wastegate port of the turbine housing. The main exhaust flow through the wheel has it's own path, and the flow through the wastegate port has it's own path, just like an internally gated turbo. The external gate opens and closes to regulate boost, and either recirculates back to the main exhaust pipe or dumps to the atmosphere.

This only works if the internal flapper assembly has been removed, and if turbine housing has fully separated paths for the wheel and internal wastegate area. If the divider has been removed, or there never was one, this won't work.

Here's one made by member TSi_with_psi:

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[dsm-onster]

His exhaust will have the gate and outlet flange of any 02 housing/wastegate combo in a very different orientation. But yes. This is definately what he should do. He should be running an external gate for any turbo larger than the e3 16g. It just makes sense.

 

[Vetal]

Guys first of all thanx for your answers. I know I'm asking many questions, but there are so many options for dsm-style setup that I'm still a bit lost even after all this answers.
First, I really don't want to spend upward of $1000. That leaves FP3052, S256 and Garrett BB out.
So what do I have left?
1) 68HTA. Not much of upgrade from one point of view. On the other hand, this guy http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/365929-fp-hta68-fp2-cams-e85.html#post152157632 had +15% HP after switching from Evo3.
2) HX35 + BEP bolton. Still more than $500 for used HX35+new housing+shipping.
3) MHI TD05 20G >$1000, not worth it
4) 20G TD06 - is it bolt-on? how much $$?
5) upgrade my Evo3 with 20G cold side parts. $300.
6) 18G-6SL2 - looks good, actually
7) Bullseye T04B - not reliable?
8) PTE SCM series, 50trim-60trim, look very good on paper?
9) HE351VE and change setup entirely
Did I miss something?

Here's my DP by the way:

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[dsm-onster]

The 68hta guy above was running about 10% more flow. Not 15% and he tunes using link. And we all concluded that he's really seeing about 5% more power at the same boost considering he was running about 30 degreesF higher intake air temps. That accounts for half of the difference in flow

Something was definately wrong with his e3 16g setup. I net .3 seconds better 70-90 time with a small 16g and the same cams with the same exhaust manifold and a downgrade 1g intake manifold.

Cheapest option up there that includes a hotside upgrade is the bolton hx35. It's proven to put out 500whp trap speeds and dyno numbers. And so far public the fastest has been 11.2 at 126mph with a car that weights more than yours

Otherwise, you know the td06h 20g will work because it's the same thing but with a bigger turbine wheel and compressor. 18gSL is a nice option too. several reported quite a bit more flow at the same boost on the same setup with similar IATs.

I suggest the 54mm inducer holset h1c, which comes from the INTERCOOLED 1991-1993 cummins pickup. Be careful because there's also the 52-50mm and even the 45mm . Know what you're buying. . . The 54mm h1c flows about as much as a 20g but can be had for dirt cheap and bolts into the BEP hx35 bolton housing. Spools faster than a td06h 20g to boot.

 

[Vetal]

He's now at 372 hp vs 324, which is 14.8% increase.
P.S. My cams are total 248 degrees. And yes I have adjustable cam gears

 

[matthewdesigns]

Here's my DP by the way:

If you built that, you could easily convert it to an external gate setup. It's almost there as it sits.

 

[Vetal]

If you built that, you could easily convert it to an external gate setup. It's almost there as it sits.

yepp would be no problem. I just don't see the problem. My lowest boost with untouched WG port stays at 1.25bar which is fine with me. but yes, I would have no problem adding cheap XS wastegate. Except that it would be less reliable

 

[dsm-onster]

Go to boombop shop. I've been running their ebay gate for years. with lots of low timing sessions to really heat things up. I can't tune for sh!t. But the gate is solid still.

External gate with an hx35/h1c as a bolton is still the cheapest route, especially since you can weld better than me :

He's now at 372 hp vs 324, which is 14.8% increase.
P.S. My cams are total 248 degrees. And yes I have adjustable cam gears

That's all estimates from something other than the identical dyno. Of which estimation takes into effect the lower IAT (preturbo) he recorded with the hta68. The turbo is there to alter airflow to the motor. Look at the airflow difference. If he were running the 16g at the same day as the hta68 alot of that hp difference would not have been seen. The airflow difference is about 10%. Air temp difference (based on total temp referenced to zero kelvin) accounts for about 5% of the total flow. What remains is about 5% difference in flow. Which is nice, but is it worth it? Unless you're trying to make every one think you have a stock 1g dsm turbo. FWIW I pulled out a better 70-90 time with my small 16g with less intake manifold and the same cams/exhaust manifold/stroke/bore/etc. I also recorded the same airflow as he with his e3 16g on the small 16g with less intake manifold. Something was up with his setup with the 16g.

. . . Regardless, right now you need bigger cams if your stroke and head port shape is remotely similar to the the 4g63. Then come back to the turbo upgrade.

 

[Vetal]

Researching cams too currently, but people have had >500hp with stock cams.
So this 68HTA is really not worth it... I don't care about looks actually, just wanted to upgrade on the budget without redoing everything (I don't weld actually, I cut, smooth, prepare to get welded, go to welder. about 8 roundtrips, I think, to make this DP).

 

[JayRolla]

Like he keeps saying the 68hta will give u a little more flow but with elevated intake temps. It's a great turbo if u where going from stock but why buy a turbo that's pretty much the same when there are others that are cheaper and realiable. Not to mention flow better. Hx35 bep bolt on housing and external gate setup would be the best bet IMO.

 

[Calan]

Go to boombop shop. I've been running their ebay gate for years. with lots of low timing sessions to really heat things up. I can't tune for sh!t. But the gate is solid still.

External gate with an hx35/h1c as a bolton is still the cheapest route, especially since you can weld better than me :

I want that ^^^. If I could find that off the shelf for cheap, it would help push me over the Holset edge.

How much was that setup Matt?

 

[Vetal]

Now that I got what is "external WG on the O2 housing" it starts to make sense. Although I really don't understand why one spring and flapper (external WG) is better than another spring and flapper (int WG) if they both use the same gas passage

 

[dsm-onster]

Your current spring isnt strong enough. And the flapper has a lever arm against the spring, whereas the external has a valve that only applies the force directly onto the spring. That and you can upgrade springs.

Craig, that is an ebay recirculated o2 housing that I cut, welded on tial flanges, and installed the boombop shop external gate.

That external gate has too weak of a spring in it. But you can swap TiAL springs to it