Possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo?

[Vetal]

Hello to everyone. This is my first post here. My question is: is it possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo? On a budget, preferably. I have it on my Nissan 1.8, trap about 114mph, and I think I've run out of turbo. Is it possible to upgrade compressor to give me some 10 lbs/min more? otherwise I would have to fab new manifold, get HX35, etc.
Thank you!

 

[ziggo0]

Craig, that is an ebay recirculated o2 housing that I cut, welded on tial flanges, and installed the boombop shop external gate.

That external gate has too weak of a spring in it. But you can swap TiAL springs to it

...and not to mention diaphragms incase the cheap ones ever fail. Some ebay things aren't half bad, just the word ebay ruins it all.

 

[Vetal]

Heh, one ebay WG that I bought for my another car, was supposed to be 4-7 psi. Installed it without checking, boosted 1.2 bar

 

[dsm-onster]

Not neccesarily a bad thing

 

[pboglio]

68HTA is a +30 h.p. bump over the EVO3 16g. If your making 350 w.h.p. now, you might make 380 w.h.p., on the 68HTA. The potential is higher of course, but then again it looks like your not maxing your EVO3 16g either.

The EVO guys really don't see it worth the cost over their stock EVO turbos, in this case the 68HTA is the FP White for the EVO crowd. Which is why the majority go straight to something bigger like the FP Green HTA or that kind of turbo. The 68HTA is for guys who want the maximum response possible, with a little more topend kick than the EVO3 16g.

I bought an 68HTA for my WRX STi, but for my DSM which already has an EVO3 16g, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to drop $900 for +30 h.p., when that kind of money could get me a turbo with at least 50-60 h.p. increase.

For the lag increase, I don't an 18g worth it. The logs I've seen of the 18g/TD06sl2 were about the same spool charecteristics of a 20g. I'd step straight to a 20g with the TD06 turbine and do things right. I've seen logs showing outstanding spoolup and topend about equivalent to a 50 trim. This would probably be my next upgrade over the EVO3 16g.

 

[dsm-onster]

All this Talk and blabber... Can anyone show me a video of an HX35 going 10.3...

Anyone??


...


Anyone..??


Exactly.

Lucas English car with hta68 net only 129mph with 2770lbs race weight, 2.3L, 9.0CR, no maf (SD), ported head, down pipe only, great CAI, 29-30psi.

Mike1992 did 126mph with the hx35 and only a 2.0 with a maf; about 200 or more lbs weight; full exhaust; stock head; lower boost though this was on a 2.0L (The hx35 map goes to 55lb/min even at over 33psi) and though he was only running stock 7.8CR; NO CAI. Same, cams, intake/exhaust mani.

ET is a worthless measurement for power output. Autoshifting or different driving skill can change ET by a second or more.

Funny (<==you'll get that ), English Racing built car vs. Mike who? $800-900 turbo vs. tracter turbo. If its all about the turbo netting that ET, then what happened to all the power? That's alot of "talk and blabber".

 

[Vetal]

Not neccesarily a bad thing

not when fuel system only good to 0.5-0.7bar

 

[Calan]

Craig, that is an ebay recirculated o2 housing that I cut, welded on tial flanges, and installed the boombop shop external gate.

Interesting. One of the ebay O2 housings in the other thread was also a BoomBop recirc, already set up for the gate... but no gate was included:

Boombop O2 on eBay

I wonder what they would charge for the whole package? Hmmmm....

 

[dsm-onster]

I wish they had that external recirc o2 housing out when I bought their gate and o2 housing

 

[Vetal]

Another evening of reading, and again a bit another vision...
Now I almost completely ruled out getting 68HTA or 18G/20G turbos. Maybe only change compressor part to 20G for around $300. Maybe get china 20G for around $400.
I'm really starting looking at "50 trim" turbos. SBR G50, Bullseye T04B start at about $800. PTE 5557 for $900. They are bolton upgrade and flow considerably more than 20G, am I correct?

 

[pboglio]

If you haven't already read this, it might help: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...8481-internally-gated-turbos-tested-dyno.html

No, a 50 trim doesn't significantly outflow a 20g. A 50 trim is done at 49 lb/min, the 20g about 47 lb/min. That is about +20 h.p. difference for a lag increase that IMHO isn't worth it. The journal bearing 50 trims are known to be both laggy and dead off boost and often described as not a fun street turbo. A 20g compressor wheel on a stock TD05H turbine wheel isn't a good match either, I'd at least have the turbine wheel clipped a minimum of 10* if your trying it on a budget.

 

[dsm-onster]

The pte bolton still has that terrible exhaust housing. Which is not an upgrade to the typical 20g hotside. It is practically the same shape and size critical area. Many, many have upgraded to garrett turbine housings after being very disappointed with their results for a 50-trim turbo, because the housing is far too restrictive for the turbine wheel:

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The td06h turbine wheel is a better wheel than the typical t31 50-trim wheel. FP puts the td06h turbine wheel with the 50-trim compressor to make the famous fp green. GREAT turbo! If you want a wheel that will flow enough for that restrictive bolton pte housing, you need to go to one that will be VERY laggy. . . Considering your displacement, I wouldn't go that route.

 

[pboglio]

I forgot about the FP GReen. The only drawback that everyone complained about on the FP GReen was the internal gate blowing open, so an external almost sounds like the best move on that turbo. If I recall correctly, people where seeing full boost at about 3800 rpms on the FP Green. Overall though your right, everyone that ran one seemed to be happy with it.

 

[Vetal]

Thanks, that was a great link was - because it doesn't have valid links to dyno graphs anymore.
But now I'm even more frustrated From that test it is obvious that most powerful turbos from that test (SBR G50 and "bastard 20G") only gave 5% more HP. Although they might not be at he limit, whereas Evo3 was, that's what boost drop at high-rpm means imho...
So no point in changing my Evo3 at all??? Only to smth. like PTE5557 or larger? or HX35???

Edit: i see 1 bar at 3500, full boost at maybe 4200, how is that compared to 2.0 DSMs?

 

[pboglio]

They were at the limit of what the internal wastegates could hold. The 50 trim could easily pull an extra +50 h.p. on the EVO3 16g. I believe "Dre" pulled something like +440 w.h.p. on the 50 trim on pump gas on a 2g, I've got the post somewhere on my other computer. Once he switched to a Magnus intake manifold his topend increases were massive.

I think Curt brown pulled 397 w.h.p. on the EVO3 16g on pump gas and stock motor, 460 w.h.p. on race gas/stock motor, and 499 w.hp. on race gas/built motor. I myself just pulled 384 w.h.p. on the AMS dynojet on race gas/stock motor with the EVO3 16g so the potential is there, and there is much more left in it.

I see 1 bar at about 3000 rpms, 20 psi by 3300-3400 in 3rd gear if I hit the throttle at say 2600 rpms.

The HX35 seems like an interesting option, talk to DSM-onster about that one. People seem to love them.

 

[Vetal]

I'm reading about a guy with 1.8 Miata making 590whp on 50-trim on pump+meth... That's quite a bit of power...

I think Curt brown pulled 397 w.h.p. on the EVO3 16g on pump gas and stock motor, 460 w.h.p. on race gas/stock motor,

So race gas/E85 may add 15% HP?? And when you say "stock motor", do you mean also stock head and cams??

How does HX35 BEP bolton housing positions the shaft relative to position of Evo3 shaft? So that I know how much closer to the block and to the components below will be HX35 housing. I'm asking because I only have 1 inch of clearance between Evo3 and block, and about the same from below

Here's the link to that Miata:
50 Trim Record!!! - MX-5 Miata Forum

 

[dsm-onster]

You'll have alot of work ahead of you to net such power with a 50-trim. A record is a record for a reason . You will NOT see that with the pte bolton. Or likely even the BEP bolton.

There will likely be clearance issues with the hx35 if your compressor is that close to the block. But there will also be clearance issues with all the turbos mentioned except the fp18G or the fp68hta . . .

If it's just the turbine housing that is 1" away, then you'll be fine with all the turbos mentioned.

The td06h 20g is simply a bigger turbo and has proven time and time again to net 450-500whp. Not 1-2 cases of 450-500whp with highly upgraded setups. . . But you still need cams. There's lot to be had out of the evo3 16g at 350whp. Dsm guys have done 550whp with stock cams. But not with small turbos.

 

[Vetal]

So how is shaft positioned with BEP boltoon housing?

 

[dsm-onster]

Perhaps something was lost in translation? What do you mean by "shaft"? The turbo shaft doesn't change position. The turbine housing sits close to the same as a 16g. Actually, we have to move our down pipe forward about 1/2". for you this would mean your o2 housing would have angle away from the block about 1/2", which there should be plenty of give in any exhaust for that.

But depending on where the compressor housing ends up you may have clearance issues. The HX35 compressor housing is very large.

 

[Vetal]

I meant postion of HX35 shaft relative to the position of 16G turbo shaft, bolted to the same manifold. As I understand, BEP housing moves turbo away from the block about 1/2"?
Actually looked today and there's about 1.5" between evo3 housing and my block, but from the bottom it's only 1/4" away from the motor mount... So either I'm binning motor mount, or I'm installing HE351VE...
Do you think it'll be good on 1.8? spool not much slower than Evo3 with vanes closed?

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok tat makes sense. Yes, it will move the shaft (centerline axis) of the turbo away about 1/2". . . Not sure about the clearance down low. The hx35 is also longer than the evo3 16g, so the compressor is placed in a different place along the centerline axis of the turbo.

With the vanes closed on the he351, you're looking at spool at just as fast as a 16g. Do a serach on member aero salle here o smtuners. He runs this turbo. The vanes closes it spools devilishly fast. But the vaes upen up to the size of a 25cm^2 housing (speculated). and the compressor wheel is the same as the large hx40 compressor wheel

 

[Vetal]

Isn't "aero" the one with 2.4 engine?
actually, if compressor housing is further away from the turbine flange, than HX35 could fit...

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes. Click. But he sees full boost at 2900rpms ! So you'll see a very fast response even with a 1.8L I would think.

14b/16g: center of turbine volute to center of compressor volute is about 3". h1/hx: about 4.5".

 

[Vetal]

Thanx a lot, you give me so many good answers

 

[Vetal]

Is it confirmed by more than one that HE351VE spools earlier than HX35?

 

[Vetal]

Is it confirmed that HE351VE spools earlier than HX35?

Did quite a lot of tests over this week. Results are not good at all.
1) pressure drop over IC is 0.1bar at most, probably less. So nothing to improve there
2) vacuum at the turbo inlet is acceptable too, maybe 1psi at most. So same, nothing that I can improve greatly
3) manifold backpressure. Saw up to 3.6 bar at 1.6bar boost pressure... So I guess it's almost official that my turbo is at limit. Don't really understand that... I was hoping I would squeeze more from the turbo