Possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo?

[Vetal]

Hello to everyone. This is my first post here. My question is: is it possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo? On a budget, preferably. I have it on my Nissan 1.8, trap about 114mph, and I think I've run out of turbo. Is it possible to upgrade compressor to give me some 10 lbs/min more? otherwise I would have to fab new manifold, get HX35, etc.
Thank you!

 

[91stocker]

Using a calculator for weight and et it says your around 330whp. There are a few people that pushed the 16g over the 400whp mark.

Here are a couple threads that might help.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/365759-evo3-16g-dyno-results.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/377931-16g-drag-race-discussion-thread.html

 

[Vetal]

Using a calculator for weight and et it says your around 330whp. There are a few people that pushed the 16g over the 400whp mark.

Here are a couple threads that might help.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/365759-evo3-16g-dyno-results.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/377931-16g-drag-race-discussion-thread.html

So you think I might get 135mph or more out of this turbo??

 

[kidtsi]

I believe you can still send it in to Forced Performance and have them put in the HTA Wheel they now offer for EVO III 16gs

Might not fit within your "Budget" but its a hell of a turbo.
Price should be cheaper than their new price so i'd look into that.
Forced Performance Turbochargers: FP 68HTA Turbocharger for DSM

Granted its a 2.3 Stroker and Auto... English Racing went 10.3 @129mph with it
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actually the big 16g is used...

 

[dsm-onster]

It was the evo3 16g (a bit different than the big 16g; evo 1-2) that was used to run 10.6sec. And the 68hta was used to go that 10.399 in the video posted there.


****EDIT: oh , you mean they modify the regular big 16g to turn into the fp 68hta. The picture of the compressor on their site shows the numbers for the regular big 16g. That means no iconnel turbine wheel and the lower nickle content turbine housing I suppose. But I don't think that's a huge deal.

 

[Vetal]

Is anything more left in this Evo3 turbo? More than 121mph trap?

 

[91stocker]

What are you flowing up top, lbs/min i mean? If your making 330whp then you can certainly squeeze more out of it. The member on the first link i posted made over 430awhp on a 2.0L. Also whats max psi are you running? Whats it hold till redline? A little more info would help answer your question.

 

[Vetal]

What are you flowing up top, lbs/min i mean? If your making 330whp then you can certainly squeeze more out of it. The member on the first link i posted made over 430awhp on a 2.0L. Also whats max psi are you running? Whats it hold till redline? A little more info would help answer your question.

I don't know lbs/min cause it's not DSM platform.
I'm running upto 28psi in midrange, and falls to some 21-22 psi at top end. But if I push it more (via electronic boost controller), I don't see gains in power, only in pre-turbo backpressure (raises to about 51psi pre-turbo with 23psi boost). It tells me that my turbo is choked at that point...

 

[gen2allday]

BTW do you guys have some form of variable valve timing on DSMs? So that I know how much later my 1.8 with no VVT will spool same turbos as on the graphs I see here

Careful might blow the welds on your intake with that stuff

 

[91stocker]

I don't know lbs/min cause it's not DSM platform.
I'm running upto 28psi in midrange, and falls to some 21-22 psi at top end. But if I push it more (via electronic boost controller), I don't see gains in power, only in pre-turbo backpressure (raises to about 51psi pre-turbo with 23psi boost). It tells me that my turbo is choked at that point...

What are tuning with? Dont you have a way to log? It sounds pretty dangerous to be running that kind of boost and not know whats going on. But im also not familiar with vw in anyway haha.

 

[Vetal]

Nistune, if that means anything to you basically stock ECU with interface to real-time tune it. We don't have such thing as lbs/min there

 

[91stocker]

I don't know lbs/min cause it's not DSM platform.
I'm running upto 28psi in midrange, and falls to some 21-22 psi at top end. But if I push it more (via electronic boost controller), I don't see gains in power, only in pre-turbo backpressure (raises to about 51psi pre-turbo with 23psi boost). It tells me that my turbo is choked at that point...

Sounds like you may have reached the limits of your exhaust manifold? Also are you on the 7cm exhaust housing?

On post #43, he talks about switching to a larger t3 style exhaust manifold and how it greatly reduced pre turbo back pressure.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/334299-holset-hx40-makes-685hp-584tq-2.html

Heres a quote from a 200sx forum:
"Above these boost levels the exhaust side of the turbo is physically too small to flow enough exhaust gases and the backpressure behind the turbine starts to increase. When the boost is turned up past the point previously mentioned, the back pressure in the exhaust manifold soars to over 50 psi. When 50 or so psi is present in the exhaust manifold and only 10-15 psi in the intake manifold, it is possible to get backflow of hot exhaust gasses through the engine during the overlap period where both the intake and exhaust valves are both open. Normally an engine depends on the inrush of relatively cool intake air and fuel during the overlap period to internally cool the engine's valves, piston tops and combustion chamber. Because of this backflow or reversion, the engines internals start to get heat saturated under high boost. When things get real hot they can cause the fuel air mixture to auto ignite causing detonation"

Nistune, if that means anything to you basically stock ECU with interface to real-time tune it. We don't have such thing as lbs/min there

Odd, it seems there has to be a way to log airflow. Are you using a maf or a map sensor?

Either way, if 330whp is right that is running a 16g pretty hard. There are some tricks to hold more to redline and squeezing some more power out of it. But bigger numbers would be had easier by upgrading the turbo. Unless any of the above helps at all.

 

[Vetal]

I don't think that's related to manifold because I measure backpressure almost at the exit, near turbo flange. So I think that's pure backpressure that turbo and exhaust create (exhaust is very freeflowing, measured it).
On one hand, I'm at 121mph which is not so bad. On the other, most that people get in 2900lbs car is what, 128mph? Not so much left. I'm on 55mm throttle body, stock 248 cams and intake setup, 75mm MAF. What bothers me is that backpressure, I wouldn't expect turbo to choke flow at only 330whp??

P.S. In this situation, would nitrous help me at all?

 

[dsm-onster]

It's hard for these guys to just concede and say the evo3 16g is a 400whp turbo with special sauce. . . They've grown up on the special sauce (that is the 4g63 and 16g study by MHI itself). So you have to pardon their loss of interest and/or ability to determine what it takes to get your drastically different platform to the next level.

P.S.S. Nitrous would help you GREATLY!!!! but that pisses off the e3 16g dong suckers.

You need more a$$. . . Serously. you need more hotside consdering your motor and it's flow; You need a bigger way to get the flow out the longgone pipe and you're still probably thinking about compressor wheels. . .

 

[Vetal]

I can't complain about amount of comments on my topic Response is really great.
It's just so happened that when I was choosing turbo few years ago, I've chosen this Evo3 16G It seemed to me the best turbo for the money for my displacement.
I would say mine is very similar to DSM platform - similar displacement, old simple design, no VVT or technology to help little engine.
So you think nitrous will help my Evo3 turbo get more power? I was thinking that extra exhaust gases from nitrous just couldn't escape through that same housing that creates me 3.5bar backpressure by itself

 

[dsm-onster]

N2O doesn't care about how clammy the exaust is. The engine will, but more N2O will fix that, if you continue down that path

 

[91stocker]

N2O doesn't care about how clammy the exaust is. The engine will, but more N2O will fix that, if you continue down that path

Wouldnt the excessive back pressure plus n20 be a recipe for disaster? The back pressure is already trying to cause knock im sure. Hes e85 but..

Whats your timing look like Vetal?

 

[DSMTyson]

If I were you I would just buy a 20G wheel and machined compressor cover. Thats what I did.

Turbo Compressor Housing TD05H + Wheel 20G DSM 1G EVO 3 | eBay

Fairly cheap and should give you ~6-7 more lbs/min.

 

[dsm-onster]

Wouldnt the excessive back pressure plus n20 be a recipe for disaster? The back pressure is already trying to cause knock im sure. Hes e85 but..

The n2o gives more oxygen, more mass flow in effect. If the turbo sees more mass flow at the turbine, for it to maintain the same boost that you set the mbc/actuator to, the actuator will open the gate a little more. All that extra flow bypasses the turbine. And the pressure differential across the turbine to do the work needed to maintain the desired boost doesn't change. So back pressure doesn't rise.

Turbine work = Specific heat X Massflow X (Temp in -Temp out)

Both 'Temp in' and Massflow go up with n2o. But then the gate turns down massflow by opening the flapper more to maintain the same work required to steady the boost you desire.

 

[Vetal]

dsm-onster, your explanation seems logical as I don't see boost creep, that means WG is up totask so it probably can bypass those extra amount of exhaust from nitrous

91stocker, I'm running some 15deg at 4-5K, and 20-22deg at 6-7500 rpm

 

[dsm-onster]

EXACTLY! If your creeping with n2o, then either get a bigger turbine housing, bigger or clipped turbine, or simply uncork the wastegate more. There are good reasons to do either of those choices.

 

[Vetal]

I WILL get bigger housing, it will be HE351VE just didn't have time to install.
What I want now is squeeze a bit more power quickly out of my Evo3 turbo So NOS might be the way...

 

[91stocker]

Maybe going with a t3 manifold and a 10cm exhaust housing would help your situation? The holset guys showed nice gains dropping the bolt on housing and going to a larger t3 style. Plus you would then have the right manifold for the holset you want to run later.

It sounds like the 16g on your set up is near maxed out, your timing looks good. Spiking to 28 and dropping to 21-22 by redline sounds like its out of steam.

Beside that maybe follow some of the tricks the guys in this thread are doing to squeeze a little more out of it. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/365759-evo3-16g-dyno-results.html

The n2o gives more oxygen, more mass flow in effect. If the turbo sees more mass flow at the turbine, for it to maintain the same boost that you set the mbc/actuator to, the actuator will open the gate a little more. All that extra flow bypasses the turbine. And the pressure differential across the turbine to do the work needed to maintain the desired boost doesn't change. So back pressure doesn't rise.

Turbine work = Specific heat X Massflow X (Temp in -Temp out)

Both 'Temp in' and Massflow go up with n2o. But then the gate turns down massflow by opening the flapper more to maintain the same work required to steady the boost you desire.

So basically would make more power on the same boost? If the extra exhaust energy is being diverted around the turbo, where would the extra power come from? If timing is maxed and turbo is out of steam.

Probably a noob question, just never really understood using n20 on small frame turbos running past their max, especially with e85. Is the power gain purely an all motor gain? Sorry if thats confusing, hard to explain online. Being a 14b auto the thought of n20 has come up. Sorry didnt mean to thread jack vetal.

 

[dsm-onster]

So basically would make more power on the same boost? If the extra exhaust energy is being diverted around the turbo, where would the extra power come from? If timing is maxed and turbo is out of steam.

Yes, you are doing well figuring it out in a crash course ! Absolutely, you make more power with the same boost. n2o isnt about allowing more boost, that's water/meth injection or other fuels used (for the most part). n2o is about actually putting more oxygen into the motor, which is more airflow. It's chemically raising the boost/flow. No more boost is "needed" because the extra "airflow" comes from the release of oygen from the n2o.

Answering some of your questions may help him. . .

 

[Vetal]

A little update. I tried spraying 35HP dose of nitrous and all I gained was about 10whp. Boost raises, it misfires a bit more, but no gains that I could feel, only few whps on my GTech