Possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo?

[Vetal]

Hello to everyone. This is my first post here. My question is: is it possible to upgrade Evo III 16G turbo? On a budget, preferably. I have it on my Nissan 1.8, trap about 114mph, and I think I've run out of turbo. Is it possible to upgrade compressor to give me some 10 lbs/min more? otherwise I would have to fab new manifold, get HX35, etc.
Thank you!

 

[dsm-onster]

Maybe the dsm head/block extracts more from the turbo, less puming loss, more efficincy in the combustion chamber. Dont tell Tsimage . . . afterall it i s a different platform.

I don't know what else to tell you other than you are attacking this from the turbos point of view and not the motors. Can you decrease backpressure somehow (preturbo), can you increase thermal efficiency of the motor (extract more power during combustion with what flow you have). Can you increase VE. VE increases won't net more power directly if the turbo is maxed out. But it will indirectly, because it will make it easier to draw air into the motor. It takes energy to intake airflow. It's not a free ride. The higher VE will encourage the air to "fall" into your motor. So though your turbo is maxed out, it will take less energy from the down stroke on intake to put air into the cylinder. Small things like this make the difference in a maxed out turbo setup and the easier route: goingto a better flowing turbo.

 

[Vetal]

Backpressure I think is mostly dictated by turbine housing.
What else... maybe some cams... what diameter throttle plate do you have on DSMs? I have 50mm, maybe too small...

Main question is, how can turbo be maxed out at such lowish power level... But I guess it is certain that it's maxxed out if I measure that backpressure...

 

[pboglio]

For your particular setup, the turbo is probably maxxed out. But the turbo itself on a DSM can laydown +400 w.h.p. no problem. I see a few things on your setup that could be hurting, but nothing that is going to magically give you another +10 lb/min. Looks like its time to upgrade.

 

[Vetal]

Can you share what things?

 

[pboglio]

Cams for one. That right there is a +20-25 h.p. I don't know if your 50mm MAF is hot wire or what, but even if it was that would be extremely small, that is barely 2". A typical switch to speed density is about 15 w.h.p. The throttlebody being 50mm might be a gain of maybe 5 h.p. going to 60mm or bigger. Your intake piping before the compressor, no idea what it looks like but there is big power in optimizing it.

You said you measured intake vacuum, where did you take the reading from and what did you use to measure it, what type of gauge?
Pressure drop in the I.C. core, how did you measure it?

 

[Hubbard 0]

Guys first of all thanx for your answers. I know I'm asking many questions, but there are so many options for dsm-style setup that I'm still a bit lost even after all this answers.
First, I really don't want to spend upward of $1000. That leaves FP3052, S256 and Garrett BB out.
So what do I have left?
1) 68HTA. Not much of upgrade from one point of view. On the other hand, this guy http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/365929-fp-hta68-fp2-cams-e85.html#post152157632 had +15% HP after switching from Evo3.
2) HX35 + BEP bolton. Still more than $500 for used HX35+new housing+shipping.
3) MHI TD05 20G >$1000, not worth it
4) 20G TD06 - is it bolt-on? how much $$?
5) upgrade my Evo3 with 20G cold side parts. $300.
6) 18G-6SL2 - looks good, actually
7) Bullseye T04B - not reliable?
8) PTE SCM series, 50trim-60trim, look very good on paper?
9) HE351VE and change setup entirely
Did I miss something?

Here's my DP by the way:

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Nice downpipe, looks a lot like mine.

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Just realized I have any good pictures of it off the car. What was I thinking?

 

[Vetal]

I'm still confused about how others get this small turbine housing/wheel flow more than 460whp, when I can only get probably 310... They can't have VE more than mine by 50%. Maybe ethanol would get me some extra hp? I'll have to try I guess...

 

[pboglio]

Must be a tuning thing, don't know. Don't know if the 1.8 liters is hurting you, that typically is an advantage only at higher rpms, right where the EVOIII 16g isn't really optimal. Your giving up nearly 10% airflow due just to the lack of engine displacement, that is one aspect.

400 w.h.p. is the norm for a good maxxed out race gas tune, on a 2.0 Liter running some serious amount of boost, like 30 psi in the midrange. I'd expect probably 360 w.h.p. maxxed out on your 1.8 Liter motor with that EVOIII 16g, though I'm not all that familiar with the Nissan 1.8L motors.

 

[Vetal]

Displacement doesn't affect amount of gases turbo housing can flow. Besides, I can only get 22psi max on top-end, by that boost backpressure skyrockets with no gains in boost/power. 9% less displacement only means a bit higher pressure ratio to achieve same flow, and a bit higher turbo speed. Even on the compressor map in the region of 1.4bar and 560cfm, it's still withing 65% efficiency.
My trap speed of 114 at 2900lbs indicates that I'm barely at 300whp...

 

[pboglio]

Yes, but the engine and turbocharger have to be matched, the EVOIII 16g was designed for a 2.0 Liter. And at the flow rates you want to hit, the pressure ratio the 16g would need to achieve to hit those flow rates isn't going to happen. At 43 lb/min, the PR is at about 2.5 more or less. That isn't enough to pull big numbers on a 1.8 Liter. Obviously, your setup isn't even close to being maxxed out anyways. You can't blame the turbocharger. Like I said, I'd expect about 360 w.h.p. more or less, so you still have some room to grow. I hit 384 w.h.p. on a dynojet with the EVO3 16g, and making more power than that at the moment. I'm talking from experience. Knowlegable tuners have given you some good advice. If you can't hit 360 w.h.p., then you aren't maxxed out.

 

[Vetal]

BTW, isn't 450whp on dynojet more like 400-410whp on Mustang?

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes.

Pboglio is right. The farthest point right on the e3 16g map is at a lower boost than you probably need for your 1.8L motor. All the more reason you need to look at turbo compressors that flow more air at higher boost. And are designed for higher boost applications.

BTW, a pair of cams really helps increase your airflow at lower boost levels. It is like a significant displacement upgrade in the midrange and topend.

 

[Vetal]

a bit off, but what diameter clutches do you have on DSMs and what clutches (below $500) do you use on 400+whp DSMs? My 410lb/ft rated clutch started slipping... I'm more and more thinking I have really reached around 390-400hp with this turbo

 

[97gst_spyder]

What engine are you running? QG18DE??

 

[Vetal]

Ca18det

 

[Vetal]

Somehow managed to trap 120mph on E85 yesterday... So I guess it's actually not that much down on power as I thought

 

[dsm-onster]

Great job!!! that is more like it. Did you ET any better? If you didn't, just get some more seat time and see where it takes you. . . I'd still upgrade the cams at some point

 

[Vetal]

About ET that is funny story... I competed in "Street" class which had minimal ET of 12.9s. I thought I could barely crack this time so I tried to stay above 12.9 and let off at some point during runs, but one run, when I felt I didn't launch too good, I didn't let off and got 12.70@120mph
So I think if I didn't fool around all previous runs, 12.4 would be quite achievable. I hope so
I wonder what else could I do to get more power out of it. Besides cams, which are costly for CA18 and I'm not sure they will give me much at this point where turbo is maxxed...

 

[dsm-onster]

Just get the seat time and run the sh!t out of her. . . Find out where you're at. That's the best thing you can do right now I think.

 

[Vetal]

no no no, I was asking specifically about usable power
read today that some guy (not pro tuner) got 474whp of of bolt-on 50 trim, that's impressive

 

[peon_slayer]

just throwing the idea out there but i have a holset hx35 7 blade just laying around , if your 16g doesnt have alot of shaft play i may trade ya if your interested

 

[Vetal]

Thought I'd share my joy - did 12.21 @ 117mph on it

 

[Vetal]

Forgot to update - last year ran 12.04@121mph with this. Probably the highest I could get. Now thinking of fitting HE351VE to my little 1.8

 

[phunny]

Forgot to update - last year ran 12.04@121mph with this. Probably the highest I could get. Now thinking of fitting HE351VE to my little 1.8

Fantastic. I sort of skimmed this thread, but do you run water or meth injection?

 

[Vetal]

Nope, nothing. Just E85 with cheap 1000cc injectors


Guys do you think I have any more potential left in this turbo? Running 12.0@121mph, 2900lbs weight?