Oiling a Holset Hx35 from the head (theory)?..

[crash89]

Alright guys, before you start saying read the Holset faq's and jazz know that I already have.. This is just and idea that came to me while talking with my buddy Kenny (kp116) about the SIM evo build. They are using an Hx35 and feeding from the head. I asked them about it and pointed out some notes and facts directly from the Holset FAQ sticky as well as a couple other resources. Mostly here > http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm-build-journals/428717-sim-evo-8-forward-facing-shootout-build.html#post152903338

Ok, with my readings the Holset requires minimum 30psi under load and no less than 10psi at idle. Also I read a thread (noted in link above) where the head receives 45psi under load and 7-10psi at idle.. NOTE this is WITH balance shafts (according to his profile).. So, with this info a Holset COULD be ran from the head but would be pretty close to starvation but still have adequate lubrication.. I have also noticed that with balance shafts removed people have to use restrictors and such to keep from excessive oil pressure to the turbo from a OFH feed.

Now, what if one were to remove their balance and feed from the head?? In theory wouldnt the "added" oil pressure from no balance shafts give you that little extra psi at the head to sufficiently feed a Holset and not risk blowing thrust seals in the turbo??

 

[turboglenn]

Well, I agree that in "theory" it would work just fine, but in the real worl when measuring pressure at the head's turbo oil feed location (what was used on a 1g car) most of us observe well less than the required pressure listed in the holset instructions. I had about 12psi at idle and only about 27psi at WOT through out the RPM range, although close,many peoplei spoke with about holsets said that they would do better being run on the high end and even over the max pressure as compared to running themon the low end and possibly under the minimum pressures listed.

I have since modded my OFH and am oiling from there with no issues so far, i had oiled it from the head succesfully but only for a few short days and as little miles as i could possibly put on it. Yet although not frommy use i still had to rebuild the turbo a few days after the install when it loosened up and showed there was much more wear on it than i had thought when getting it used and never opening it up i guess there was some sticky oil making the side to side play seem minimal but after a few days of good fresh oil and high temps that stuff must have washed away and let the real wear show up. Also since the rebuild there's not been any change in the play, I decided to oil from the housing as a safety measure so that i wouldn't ruin the CHRA causing me to have to spend a lot more than the 60 dollar rebuild kit to keep the turbo in service

 

[crash89]

27 psi at the head location, correct? When doing a BSE, you need to port the relieve valve in the oil filter housing. Would this be caused by too much porting? What if one were to just slightly port or not at all and feed from the head? Isnt the purpose of porting this to keep pressure down to those feeding a turbo from the OFH?

 

[turboglenn]

27 psi at the head location, correct? When doing a BSE, you need to port the relieve valve in the oil filter housing. Would this be caused by too much porting? What if one were to just slightly port or not at all and feed from the head? Isnt the purpose of porting this to keep pressure down to those feeding a turbo from the OFH?

The 27psi was at the head,no b-shafts, NO OFH PORTING and with pressures when measured at the bottom end easily hit 85psi by 4k RPM at any time and were over 100psi when doing redline pulls (way too high for the turbo though, which is why i went to the head since it had fed every other turbo since removing the T25)..

After the porting of the bypass valve on the OFH the pressures at the head stayed thesame but were reduced else where in the engine. I'm not sure if the HLA regulator actually effect pressure at the oil feed location but i was assuming it did and thinking that the more rare JDM style regulator i was running was the cause of the lower pressuyre and I almost went back to an OEM USDM style HLA just to see if i could get more pressure but i had already done the grunt work of pulling the housing and working itover so i kept the better HLA reg and fed the turbo from the filter housing where it could get all the pressure and volume it wanted tobe happy

 

[crash89]

Well poops... That blows my whole thought to crap! haha. I thought I was onto something when I thought of this today. I still dont get how one guy could get 45psi under load at the head location but others like yourself only get a measly 27?

Last season before I started tearing into the spyder I was feeding my 20g from the head. Im just trying to avoid buying something I dont need, ya know? If some way a head feed worked, why buy a new line and restrictor to feed from OFH? Know what I mean? By all means, if I have to buy another line so be it. Then I have to, its not that big of a deal to me. Just trying to get a better understanding with all of this..

 

[turboglenn]

Well, if you port the housing and if needed clip the spring then a restrictor won't be needed, i'm running just an open -4 AN line from the OFH to the turbo. I built the line from an old nitrous line and a couple of fittings that were under around 5 -7 dollars each. I layed the line out, cut it and installed the aeroquip fittings and it came out really nice and for a lot less investedthan buying a pre-made line from anywhere.

Some people do see morepressure at the head and I do think that my HLA has a good part to play (or at least that's MY THEORY ) as to why my head pressures are so low, because some people who repliued to my posts during the install WERE seeing pressures between 35 and 45psi at the head when using the OEM style HLA regulators from the americal market cars (mine has a spring and piston like the OFH valve does while most USDM units just have a flat bottomwith either a bleed hole or a restriction hole - can't recall which to be honest) But the ### ,market piece i run was said to be the better HLA to have when choosing from OEM mitsu parts (so i blame that for low head presures)

There are some people actually oilingthe holsets from the head and succesfully on some of them or at least no failures were reported that i saw. I did talk to one member through PM who said that although he oiled form the head he would be changing it and if i recall it was due to some failures at the turbo that he thought were oil starvation.

The best advice i can give you is to look in my holset install thread in the turbo section and get an inline gauge like the one in my pics and put that on and pay attention to it when deciding the final location on feeding the turbo.. THe line as I stated can be built a lot cheaper than buying it premade, and if you want i'll sell you a piece of -4 line and you cn buy the fittings and have under 20-25 bucks in the complete line.

I have always fed my past MHI and Garrett T3/t4 tiurbos from the head with that same pressure output and they were fine. Had i not done so much reading on the holsets and their finicky oiling requirements then I probably would have fed it from the hed until it failed or didn't. BUt being in my financial situation i couldn'ta afford to take the chance to be the test dummy and put in the labor and few extra dollars to save me from the heartbreak of a scored up turbine and beat to death CHRA.

Things in these engines vary greatly and the best rule you can live by is to not trust what you read on teh net but to check your individual setup before running/doing anything permanent just to be safe.. This has saved me ,many times and many times i've seenb failures on parts where m,y friends come out with the famous words "the people on the forum said you could do "X-modification" no problem and that i didn't have to do anything to the other"x-named part", and they paid the price for beliving everything on their forum friends engines would be the exactsame when it came to theirs, a few extra minutes in the pits would have saved them 100 times the labor and cost involved fromthe DNF related to just taking what was fine for others as meaning it was good for theirs and no questions asked type of install would be fine (my god, to think back on it, i have shaken my head in shame for so many friends and so many times in this way over the years that it's hard to figure out why i believe anything i read ) guess that's where sorting or using that "grain of salt" when taking advice really pays off and realizing that when asking for help on forums/'net, it always pays off to take the longer, more complicated seeming route to the finish line compared to listening to the people who reply to your post with "just slap it on, you'll be fine".. also a good support to my theory of picking "one good forum" and learning who knows their shit before taking the advice tht's being offered as opposed to taking the most recomended or easiest aproach given to you in your options

 

[crash89]

I totally understand what Glenn is saying but just curious if anyone else has different findings or opinions??

 

[BogusSVO]

Glen.. have you done http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html to your head?

if not and your head is thin, then the oil pressure will be in the block, and restricted at the head gasket.

Pressure is the measure of a restriction, and flow is a measure of amout.

Example.... take a 3/8 hose and a 3/4 hose, both being worked at 45psi
PSI is the constant, flow the variable
3/8 @45 psi= 300lph (lph number is made up for the example)
3/4=6/8 @45psi=600lph
the 3/8 will flow less than the 3/4 just by design

Now, with flow the constant, and PSI the variable
3/8 @ 300lph=45psi
3/4=6/8 @300lph=22.5psi

What is going to be more important? Flow or pressure? Both are important in there own right. Both are needed. Both can be adjusted.

What is the ID of a 1g turbo oil feed line?
What is the ID of a 4AN line?

I would have to bet that the ID of the 4AN id larger than the 1g oil feed line, with that being the case it stands to reason that the pressure passing thu the 4AN is lower.

 

[turboglenn]

BOgusSVO, I did grind that little area out, maybe only went about .030" deeper at the most and had tapererd it a little. My head has .007" removed total from the OEM height last time i had it to the machine shop a few months ago my machinist removed that and said he was surpised ithadn't been shaved before and was as straight as it was. (but i've scoured the globe it seems finding two un-machinied heads to start the builds off of for my car)

The inside of the feed line from a 1g has a restrictor built into one end that seems to measure around .080 - .090" from my best eye-ball measurements. definitely smaller than a -4 line, but one thing i've noticed about the holset turbos is they seem to have smaller and slower flowing oil passages in the CHRA, so even when a small volume of oil is being fed to the unit is should back things up to about 80% of the available pressure in that area.

I have a question for you since you know these engines so well due to your job. Is the oil at the turbo feed on the head affected by the HLA regulator at all?? I don't have a diagram of the oil flow path but I have heard both sides that yes it is effected and changing the HLA regulator could have brought my OP up and i've heard others say that the turbo feed gets its flow from a galley that's before the HLA'a path of restriction and there for the total pressure it based on the flow up through the head anf not because of the HLA reg.

 

[BogusSVO]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html

If you look back thu this post, there is an oil feed chart posted. Post #24

the turbo oil feed port is before the HLA cap, now if diffrent year HLA caps have diffrent size bleed holes I do not know.

But if they do I can see the oil bleeding off quicker and flowing more oil out of the oil galley, and that will flow any backed up oil away from the turbo oil feed port in the head.

 

[DSMReviver]

Glen.. have you done http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html to your head?

if not and your head is thin, then the oil pressure will be in the block, and restricted at the head gasket.

Pressure is the measure of a restriction, and flow is a measure of amout.

Example.... take a 3/8 hose and a 3/4 hose, both being worked at 45psi
PSI is the constant, flow the variable
3/8 @45 psi= 300lph (lph number is made up for the example)
3/4=6/8 @45psi=600lph
the 3/8 will flow less than the 3/4 just by design

Now, with flow the constant, and PSI the variable
3/8 @ 300lph=45psi
3/4=6/8 @300lph=22.5psi

What is going to be more important? Flow or pressure? Both are important in there own right. Both are needed. Both can be adjusted.

What is the ID of a 1g turbo oil feed line?
What is the ID of a 4AN line?

I would have to bet that the ID of the 4AN id larger than the 1g oil feed line, with that being the case it stands to reason that the pressure passing thu the 4AN is lower.

If the head is ported to gain more flow, then the turbo can be feed from the head? (holset)

I have my balance shaft removed how much flow will i gain from doing this mod?...approximately.

I am also planning to feed my holset form the head but alittle weary.

 

[bastarddsm]

My only caveat is that turbo's don't catastrophically fail from having too much feed pressure (volume is linked to this, they have an internal resrictor), however you will completely destroy a turbo by not giving it enough oil. Why risk it?

As long as your drain is decent you can give it damn near as much oil as you want. There are no seals to be blown. Its a mechanical seal that relies on positive pressure on it out side to keep the oil in. how are you going to blow that?

 

[BogusSVO]

If the head is ported to gain more flow, the turbo then can be feed from the head? (holset)

I am not going to say that.

What I will say is check both pressure and flow, at the end of feed line and see if it matches up with what the tubo manufacture reccomends.

 

[JusMX141]

The last few guys I know who have checked head pressure have seen nothing over 28psi. That will cause an instant failure with a Holset.

The head is too low, the filter housing is too high in unrestricted form on most applications.

My only caveat is that turbo's don't catastrophically fail from having too much feed pressure (volume is linked to this, they have an internal resrictor), however you will completely destroy a turbo by not giving it enough oil. Why risk it?

This is exactly what I tell people every single day when I get about 5 PM's on the exact same topic.

 

[turboglenn]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html

If you look back thu this post, there is an oil feed chart posted. Post #24

the turbo oil feed port is before the HLA cap, now if diffrent year HLA caps have diffrent size bleed holes I do not know.

But if they do I can see the oil bleeding off quicker and flowing more oil out of the oil galley, and that will flow any backed up oil away from the turbo oil feed port in the head.

I have a rare or at least seldomely found HLA regulator that uses a spring and piston like the filter housing does to rgulate pressure to the head, it has a massive holethat can bleed off more volume than the 1g/2gHLA's respectively.

My only caveat is that turbo's don't catastrophically fail from having too much feed pressure (volume is linked to this, they have an internal resrictor), however you will completely destroy a turbo by not giving it enough oil. Why risk it?

As long as your drain is decent you can give it damn near as much oil as you want. There are no seals to be blown. Its a mechanical seal that relies on positive pressure on it out side to keep the oil in. how are you going to blow that?

Exactly, there's a smaller restrictor inthe holset than most other turbos i've tried pumping oil through so as long as you can drain off what comes out fast enough you should be fine. I'mfeeding mine un-restricted fromthe OFH and using a -4 line to do it. MY drain is made up of a t3/t4style flange with a large brass fitting threaded into it then a rubber hose is used to connect this to the 2g OEMreturn line that i cut in half just above the "flex section" made into it.

I've got around 600 solid miles on the setup since finalizing the oil feed from the housing a well as the port and spring mods i had to do in order to get pressures in check. And being these are the first 600miles most of them have been used for sometuning and playing around and the turbo has been kept working hard and pushing 22-27psi with no signs of oil/smoke

 

[DSMReviver]

My only caveat is that turbo's don't catastrophically fail from having too much feed pressure (volume is linked to this, they have an internal resrictor), however you will completely destroy a turbo by not giving it enough oil. Why risk it?

As long as your drain is decent you can give it damn near as much oil as you want. There are no seals to be blown. Its a mechanical seal that relies on positive pressure on it out side to keep the oil in. how are you going to blow that?

So i can run my holset with no oil restrictors from OFH? Haha

I see what you are saying. Im just not ready to modify my oiling system to feed from the ofh. I just don't know how to check the oil pressure. Is there a link that somebody can provide how to measure the oil pressure or where to get a T to tap into to see the pressure? (i know i am not doing enough research, sorry)

 

[turboglenn]

Find my thread on my holset install and there's a walkthrough from start to finish of my holset install where i did EVERY step with pics and text.. it's on page 2 of this turbo systemtech. I'd look it up and post a link but after having to dothat for 3 other people since yesterday i'm gonna let people start figuring out how to helpthemselves at this point (no offense)

nothing we're talking about is hard, not wantinjg to take the time to setup the oiling for your holset correctly is just gonna leave you with a dead turbo and buying more parts as well as removing it for a rebuild, so take the extra 45 minutes to remove the OFH and port it according to the pics in my thread mentioned above.. you may also want to clip a little off the spring if you don't have balance shafts. I had to remove 1.5 coils and port the crap out of the housing to get my oil pressure to top out around 70psi at redline instead of well over 100psi.

if you get lazy and feed it from the head or give it way too much pressure you're only double or trippling your workload that you''ll haveto perform in a weeks timewhen the turbo grenades (as well as adding to your cost by possibly the amount of a hole new CHRA. If my crippled up ass can get under there and pull the housing, port and re-install it while dealing with pain levels high enough to make some people pass out then there's no reason yuou shouldn't be able to do the same unless you just want to use laziness as an excuse

 

[bastarddsm]

So i can run my holset with no oil restrictors from OFH? Haha

I see what you are saying. Im just not ready to modify my oiling system to feed from the ofh. I just don't know how to check the oil pressure. Is there a link that somebody can provide how to measure the oil pressure or where to get a T to tap into to see the pressure? (i know i am not doing enough research, sorry)

I run mine from the ofh with no "restrictors" per say. Keep in mind that 2 feet of -4 line is a restrictor, and 2' of -3 is even more of a restrictor.

Were not going to spoon feed you here ( well at least i'm not) But you need to decade what your going to use to plumb your oil supply. There's plenty of threads with ideas in them.

If it was me, and your motor is in good shape and no ballancer shafts (high oil pressure) I'd run a -3 unrestricted. Otherwise (lower oil pressure) I'd run a -4 unrestricted.

Then just make sure you have a solid drain, and thats pretty well going to require custom fab work. However a welding shop should be able to set you up for not to much more than a shitty ebay kit will cost.

 

[turboglenn]

myself and a few others have had great luck with a stock 2g return line cut in half and using rubber hose to connect that to a t3/t4 style flange forthe return at the turbo. it's smaller then spec called for but for me with unrestricted -4 and 68-70psi peak pressure it's done just fine at getting the oil away fromthe turbo and back into the engine

 

[dsmtalontsi95]

I feed my first HX35 from the head and got 10-15 good pulls/ 1/4 mile runs in before it failed. I do NOT have balance shafts. Spend the time and money to do it right. It will save you money in the long run.

 

[crash89]

I feed my first HX35 from the head and got 10-15 good pulls/ 1/4 mile runs in before it failed. I do NOT have balance shafts. Spend the time and money to do it right. It will save you money in the long run.

Sorry to hear yours failed, but its great to get someone with actual results regarding this!

 

[viperlp01]

After reading this I would like to see if the evo oil pressure is different than the dsm at the head. It would be interesting. I have a S259 EVO here that had mods done to it before I got it and its feed from OFH. We will for sure make sure there is enough pressure for the holset.

 

[93_tsi_fwd]

I run mine from the ofh with no "restrictors" per say. Keep in mind that 2 feet of -4 line is a restrictor, and 2' of -3 is even more of a restrictor.

Were not going to spoon feed you here ( well at least i'm not) But you need to decade what your going to use to plumb your oil supply. There's plenty of threads with ideas in them.

If it was me, and your motor is in good shape and no ballancer shafts (high oil pressure) I'd run a -3 unrestricted. Otherwise (lower oil pressure) I'd run a -4 unrestricted.

Then just make sure you have a solid drain, and thats pretty well going to require custom fab work. However a welding shop should be able to set you up for not to much more than a shitty ebay kit will cost.

Do you still have you balance shafts installed?

 

[JusMX141]

After reading this I would like to see if the evo oil pressure is different than the dsm at the head. It would be interesting. I have a S259 EVO here that had mods done to it before I got it and its feed from OFH. We will for sure make sure there is enough pressure for the holset.

BW turbos are much like MHI units in their internal oil port design as well as the size and amount of oiling holes in the thrust plate. What works for one brand does not work for others.

I've already seen examples of Garretts with the standard 270* thrust plate fed from the head which lasted forever, then they were changed to a Garrett with a 360* plate and died instantly. Thrust design plays a huge role in the amount of available pressure within the cartridge.

 

[beansblacktsi]

I know Im not adding much information to this thread since I do not know what my pressure at the head is but I have a stock motor no balanced shafts and no oiling mods. I ran an bolt-on hx-35 with 200,000+ miles last season, oiling it from the head with a 4an line and a custom 12an return. I had about 5,000 miles on it with constant beating at 35+ psi. Turbo worked great and I saw no signs of anything being wrong. Now I just put on a bolt-on hx40 with the exact same oiling setup and havent had any issues at all yet but we will see what happens this season!