Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

[matthewdesigns]

Congrats, Glenn. I'm glad to see that this is, at least preliminarily, working for you. How much airflow are you seeing at those (18, 20, 22psi) boost levels? Assuming that your injection is boost-triggered, can you fight the initial spike in temps by dumping in a heavier shot of meth right at spoolup, or having it trigger at a much lower pressure? Or, can it be triggered by the TPS signal somehow, so that you can get it flowing in that little lag time before there's an appreciable rise in intake pressure/temps?

 

[turboglenn]

I guessing this is what they are looking for.

DErr. i guess i was tired as hell and my brian not picking up on that last night. I can get some vids of the sound and maybe a couple tire smoking launches.

And absolute_dsm.. Thanks a ton for that one link, i read about 9 pages of it last night (was up till 4 am) and there was a TON of GREAT info in there. I'm going to go pre impeller i'm 90% sure at this point!

 

[turboglenn]

Congrats, Glenn. I'm glad to see that this is, at least preliminarily, working for you. How much airflow are you seeing at those (18, 20, 22psi) boost levels? Assuming that your injection is boost-triggered, can you fight the initial spike in temps by dumping in a heavier shot of meth right at spoolup, or having it trigger at a much lower pressure? Or, can it be triggered by the TPS signal somehow, so that you can get it flowing in that little lag time before there's an appreciable rise in intake pressure?

Thanks, unfortunately with my stand alone being speed density, i won't be able to get those all important airflow numbers everyone likes to see I do how ever plan to start bringing the meth on a little earlier now though.

On the plus side, i have so many different outputs to trigger the meth with that i can do it in about any fashion i want to as far as what triggers it. Right now i just have it trigger on one of the fuel cells and every cell higher than the initial one.

I was thinking about pulse modulating it, but i didn't have much luck with that when i tested it before (relays couldn't keep up, or sounded like they would burn up anyway)

I think i'm going to move one nozzle pre-impeller, then add a solenoid in front of the second nozzle to make it a 2 stage set.

 

[H82lose91]

Spend the money on a progressive you wont be disappointed. Unless you can control pump speed.

 

[turboglenn]

I can't control pump speed, so now i'm off to devilsown website to price out progressive controllers.

I hate to say it, but g0d damn a mitsubishi!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You wouldn't believe how much stuff I've replaced while doing upgrades this year only to find something that's out of spec or broken in the process. I've spent damn near 5k in the last 4-5 months, and last night my flex section springs a HUGE leak while i was getting on it, so now i have to pull the DP (goes from turbo to my thermal one big piece) then i have to cut it apart and weld in a new flex The good part is that EVERY gasket except the head gasket is new and the motor is still in great shape after leakdown adn compression testing it.

The spool up today was phenomenol! A lot faster than i had even thought last night, but we are dealing with a lot of humidity today so that could factor in, plus it's only 35* outside.

After reading 9 pages of the link absolute_dsm posted, I am seriously considering injecting pre-turbo with one of the nozzles. There was some serious "bill nuy the science guy" type of people spitting a ton of good scientific info on the benefits of it (and the cons) but the plus sides far out way the down sides! Without trying to quote some very smart people and messing it up, in short water pre-turbo changes the pressure and density of the air entering, effectively incresing the size of the compressors map in a way. Moving both the choke and surge lines in relation to the operating speeds of the turbo shaft and wheels. Supposedly being able to make a turbo "seem" and perform as if it were 20% larger + better cooling than post turbo injection.... So guess what my next move is you guessed it, pre-turbo injection. I will finish testing this the way it is before moving on so i have solid data as to the post and pre turbo injection compared to performance with just a FMIC and some meth at the TB elbow.

when Dan (drdougalass) brings his camera over i will get some vid of the way it souds now. I love cruising up the street at 1-2 psi because it sounds like a baby lear jet cruising up the runway I love it!

 

[matthewdesigns]

And absolute_dsm.. Thanks a ton for that one link, i read about 9 pages of it last night (was up till 4 am) and there was a TON of GREAT info in there. I'm going to go pre impeller i'm 90% sure at this point!

That's the first time I've ever read someone advocating the use of pre-compressor spraying, and backing it up with more than "trust me". All I've read in the past states that the impeller wheels will become damaged to the point of throwing the balance off too much, leading to a major failure of the turbo. But the rain vs. fog on a motorcycle analogy (been there) really helped me believe that this can at least be minimized, if not eliminated, with a fine enough mist. And if the use of pre-compressor injection dates to WW2 airplanes, then I'm OK with ultimately trying it on a ground-based "flying machine"

 

[turboglenn]

Here's the haltech software and the map needed to properly view my logs.

Download all the following links into one folder(name it haltech for use with my instructions verbatim). Open the zip file to your same folder that you downloaded the files into so the program can find the map and logs. Then Run the e6k.exe file and hit "N" to "work offline"

Then go to File, Load Maps and select from the download folder "CAMS1"

Then you can go to "options" and select "Data Log"

then Select "load data log" then pick one of the logs. Yet to be posted and will need saved in the same haltech folder.

once the data log is open hit "C" to configure the data displayed, highlight "battery voltage" and hit enter, it will move to the box on the right. Then go to the box on the right and highlight "duty cycle" and hit enter again and it will move duty cycle to the left box.Also, highlight coolant temp and hit enter, then go to the box on the right and pick "Spare A/D" that is my wideband voltage for AFR info. All parameters listed on the left will be displayed, all on the right won't. Then hit the space bar and it will go back to the log showing all the data that the box on the left contained.


Run this install file to have the hatlech software on your PC.. it will not harm it and is very small and runs in a DOS window.
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/E6Kv634.zip

This map must be palced in the created haltech folder and must be loaded to properly view logs..Alt + F - select load maps (if not loaded you will see weird units and metric measures)
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/CAMS1.6KM

Logs are to come shortly..the ones i got last night were short and pretty much inconclusive.. I will update this post will all logs gathered over the next few days ( as long as the weather holds to let me log some good pulls)

 

[turboglenn]

matthewdesigns..... My thoughts exactly, and being that my compressor wheel is 85k miles + old, it's got it's fair share of wear anyway, so if anything I'll need a new compressor wheel and order it with a balanced turbine shaft at the same time (IF anything breaks)

One thing i would like to point out on the turbo side... I've been running my standard journal bearing turbo for near 90K miles on 2 motors fed from the head, with no restriction or filter and there's no more play in the turbine shaft than there was when it was new. I think too many people have fallen into "what could happen in theory" or have just had a bad experience with poorly built turbos if they are having issues with journal bearing CHRA's fed from the head. I built this turbo myself under the watchful eye of the guy who owned majestic back in 2000 and even with amateur building skills at the time this thing is still rock solid showing no signs of being even the slightest bit worn except for the compressor blades which have nothing to do with oiling!

 

[turboglenn]

Well, i just went to lunch with squeek10868 and he got to witness the "jet sound" and said it was badd-ass from outside the car. So vids will be up tomorrow (tonight's for the woman and I only ) I'll get footage tonight and edit and post tomorrow.

One thing that came as a shock is that NO cars hardley EVER roll up on me acting like they want some, but since the front mount has been removed i've had 4 cars in 2 days think they could hang....their loss When one guy that got smoked asked "what's in that, i don't see an intercooler?" i stated "oh, it's stock sidemount and a 14b" I was laughing so hard inside it wasn't funny. He then stated "I need to check out my car (SRT-4), i've never lost to a near stock eclipse" HAHAHHAHAHA

 

[H82lose91]

Gotta love it! My clutch fork just showed up so ill be swapping trannies tonight. Hell yes! May hit the track if its open sunday and see what she does.

 

[turboglenn]

Gotta love it! My clutch fork just showed up so ill be swapping trannies tonight. Hell yes! May hit the track if its open sunday and see what she does.

What is your intended setup for cooling? SMIC + meth or meth alone? Please post results and specs either way and good luck at the strip!!!

 

[H82lose91]

First runs at te dyno and strip will be with meth and sidemount. Then swap intakes only. Dyno again and hit the track. Then drop the side mount see results on the temps and run again.

 

[Joesmoke]

Good thread here guys...better be careful though, all of this talk of running no IC's and injecting pre turbo will get us burned liked witches!

I am part way through that huge thread on pre compressor injection, some really good stuff there! That will be next on my setup.

I troll the alky forum on turbobuick.com, and there has been talk that when injecting straight meth, the heat of running no IC or an undersized one, can actually have benefits in regards to the meth vaporizing better.

I can attest to that. On my 14b with the stock sidemount, I had very good performance when I first installed my meth injection (23#'s and +24 deg timing) As soon as I put my large FMIC on + a 20G, there was definitly a seat of the pants performance loss. Car seemed fat.
I ran out of tuning time and never got that same mean feeling back that I had. Im back on it now and should be able to find it.

Anyways,lets keep up this thread with good experimentation!

 

[romeen]

Glenn, good thread you've got going here. I have been through that thread from the Aquamist forums before and what you said about pre-compressor injection is true. However, once you get all they way through it you will see that, in summary, the pre-comp injection does cause significant wear on the compressor blades and they have not been able to get around this. Just something to keep in mind.

I wonder if a mix of more water than meth might not give you better results. I know that the guys running higher levels of meth have had incredible results but these guys are running FMIC's and felt that if someone is still on the stock SMIC then running more water would be a good idea. In the case of no IC this may be even more true.

One thing I am very interested in is pre-IC injection. I know that it is generally not recommended but the reasons given seem to be based on speculation. The guys who have actually done it have had very good results. Although meth is corrosive to aluminum I would think that the very small amounts needed pre-IC (an M1 or M2) along with the quick vaporization of this small amount would keep any meth from condensing in the IC. There is a concern of puddling in the IC (which seems like a possibility in theory) but again the guys who have acutally run this way have stated that their IC's don't show any significant corrosion. Later this spring I will be switching to an M1 pre-IC and an M5 pre-TB running a 50/50 mix. But you are able to datalog more parameters than me and if you were to try it could give more before and after data.(hint )

 

[2gGSX]

I wonder if a mix of more water than meth might not give you better results. I know that the guys running higher levels of meth have had incredible results but these guys are running FMIC's and felt that if someone is still on the stock SMIC then running more water would be a good idea. In the case of no IC this may be even more true.

That is because by mass, the enthalpy of vaporization for water is twice as high as methanol. I did the calculations somewhere on the first page, but it's very clear that vaporizing water will take out heat much more effectively than vaporizing meth. The only reason running meth is a better option is the extra octane it gives, but this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nit...ctane-does-methanol-injection-really-add.html also shows that it takes a LOT of methanol to see any substantial octane gains.

One thing I am very interested in is pre-IC injection. I know that it is generally not recommended but the reasons given seem to be based on speculation.

It's not exactly speculation--it doesn't take an engineer to explain why hitting a compressor blade spinning at over 100,000 RPM with even tiny masses could cause damage. I haven't gone through that thread, but over time, there will definitely be damage. The million dollar question though, is how much time?

 

[romeen]

It's not exactly speculation--it doesn't take an engineer to explain why hitting a compressor blade spinning at over 100,000 RPM with even tiny masses could cause damage. I haven't gone through that thread, but over time, there will definitely be damage. The million dollar question though, is how much time?

I was talking about pre-intercooler injection meaning injection into the LICP (post-compresor).

And as I mentioned in the first paragraph of my post, yes it has been established that pre-compressor injection causes damage to the blades but for some the benefits may outweigh the damage which is what I think Glenn is contemplating.

 

[2gGSX]

Reading >> me, my apologies.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, i ordered a new set of compressor blade along with a balanced turbine shaft so no worries, I'm going for it! im' going to test from meth to water all post turbo, then i'm going for pre-turbo and seeig what happens the same way, pure meth to a mix to pure H2o and logging results. What have i got to lose? nothing IMO you only live once so make it worht it is what i've always said But then again that's always put me in the hospitol, physical therapy and then on medication , but at least this is a safer form of "What the hell, lets go for it"

I'll keep things udated...who wants to see the logs? I don't want to post them if no one's going to check them out.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, i ordered a new set of compressor blade along with a balanced turbine shaft so no worries, I'm going for it! im' going to test from meth to water all post turbo, then i'm going for pre-turbo and seeig what happens the same way, pure meth to a mix to pure H2o and logging results. What have i got to lose? nothing IMO you only live once so make it worht it is what i've always said But then again that's always put me in the hospitol, physical therapy and then on medication , but at least this is a safer form of "What the hell, lets go for it"

I'll keep things udated...who wants to see the logs? I don't want to post them if no one's going to check them out.

I can't wait to post a pic of what my inducers look like, some of you will sh!t your pants, the rest will at least have to pick up their jaws it's beat to HELL!! so what's it going to thurt to run even a shit ton of water honestly.. i've got a spare block...looking for a piston donor in order to really test this to the max..j/k but taking offers (95+ style if you got em in .020 over)

 

[turboglenn]

Well today i put in pure meth and there was far less knock than before on initial boost as well. I didn't get to log temps though as i was going to get a window tinted and didn't want every Joe shmoe knowing what all is in my ride or thinking they can get a free laptop if they see it sitting some where in the future (that's why i had to have the new window tinted because my last laptop was ganked right in front of my work)

Anyway, back on topic...... Way less knock = GREAT, problem is now with an M7 and M10 I'm eating meth like no tomorrow. I burned a full tank (2 quarts) int eh last few days of barely driving it. I filled it and drove 8 miles to the tint shop and back and the tank is almost half empty again. I Must say that pure meth is the hot ticket so far though, but i haven't tested pure water yet either

drdouglass is coming over tonight with his video camera and we;ll get a few vids up and maybe a before and after shot of the meth level change from the runs i get taped.

I may end up swapping the 10 to the compressor outlet instead of at the TB to give it more time to atomize Adan cool before going to the combustion chamber.

One thing i want to know is concerning the guys that run straight methanol as their primary fuel and have no inter-cooler.

I know there temps have to be high initially, so does the methanol actually have the time needed to properly cool on it's short distance from injector port to the combustion chamber or is there something I'm missing. If this IS the case then i wouldn't see why it would even be necessary to have the nozzle further up-steam of the TB, so I'm wondering about how much time it actually needs to do the job and do it right.

 

[ApexVIII]

how much better is the spool up?

 

[romeen]

Glenn, the Aquamist forums are a great resource with massive amounts of info. They have an entire section just about intercooling. Look at this page and notice the 4th and 6th threads:

Waterinjection :: View Forum - Intercooler Effects

Also, have you considered experimenting with other types of alcohol? A lot of the Buick GN guys seem to prefer denatured alcohol.

 

[H82lose91]

Try and run a single M15. And honestly if you had a progressive you would eat less meth in my opinion. Back in the day when i as just running a Hobbs i used to eat through methanol. Obviously with no IC you will be using more But should still be able to maintain 10psi with no IC and not much change in the amount of Meth needed up until that point. Get some temp logs.

 

[turboglenn]

how much better is the spool up?

Quite a bit better, as soon as the meth kicks in the car goes pig rich but the needle almost instantly jumps from whrere the meth turns on to where ever i set the EBC. I'm not sure if more of it's atrributed to teh meth amounts, or to the Extremely short intercooler pipe.

Glenn, the Aquamist forums are a great resource with massive amounts of info. They have an entire section just about intercooling. Look at this page and notice the 4th and 6th threads:

Waterinjection :: View Forum - Intercooler Effects


Also, have you considered experimenting with other types of alcohol? A lot of the Buick GN guys seem to prefer denatured alcohol.

Good info Romeen, i still have to study those threads a little more though, i just glanced jsut now.... haven't tried other alcohols either, but i just found meth for 3.45 a gallon... too bad i don't ahve a monster fuel pump and injectors because at the price of good 91-92 octane i could be running methanol as a primary fuel.

Try and run a single M15. And honestly if you had a progressive you would eat less meth in my opinion. Back in the day when i as just running a Hobbs i used to eat through methanol. Obviously with no IC you will be using more But should still be able to maintain 10psi with no IC and not much change in the amount of Meth needed up until that point. Get some temp logs.

I'm thinking more and more about the prgressive controller, but the thing is they all seem to be application specific on devilsown site.. I.e. there's a 2 bar, 2.5 bar and 3 bar.. then there's one that uses TPS or MAP voltage. I wish it was a little more universal so i could use the same one for everythign from 2 - 3 bar without any issues, and the TPS base system would be okay, but i'm thinking MAP based is going to be the best. Or i might just use teh haltech to PWM a solenoid on the second nozzle. That way i could bring the small nozle on early at the turbo for cooling and then bring the big guns in at higher boosts for extra cooling and detonation protection

 

[turboglenn]

Well, i just buttoned up the last few things needed for testing. I have one nozzle pre turbo, one immediately post turbo and one at the TB. I am only utilizing 2 at a time and have a valve on the system that will allow me to shut down any of teh nozzles that i want in order to test each one individually and then together while also being able to slow down the flow to any of them as well.

I'll get a pic of the setup posted here very shortly showing how i am blocking un-used nozzles and shutting down flow to teh others (simple valves, but i'll still post pics)
drdouglass (Dan) is on his way over, the logging and filming shall begine shortly, there will be vids and logs both posted tonight. Wish me luck!