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Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
It isnt less efficient on the compressor side. Most see the td05h 20g fall on it's face up top when they are using the td05h turbine wheel (td05h 20g refers to the td05h turbine wheel mated to a 20g compressor wheel). No one really complains when the larger turbine wheels are used, or when the 05h is clipped.

What goes in must come out. The compressor can be 100% efficient up to choke but if the turbine is too small for the compressor flow, it will fall on it's face.

Haven’t actually done anything yet. Just looking at what others have done in the past. Not sure where I read it but I know I read someone claiming the smaller comp. housing choked the larger wheels causing more heat. Not saying it’s correct. Seems most of what I read online isn’t these days!

Had planned on rebuilding my big 16g anyway. Figured as long as I had it apart I’d buy the $145 balanced 20g wheel and modified TD05H comp. housing for it. (Ebay)

Seems folks are making 400+ (450?) on the big 16g now. So if I could still have peak around the same and a little more midrange then it seemed like an ok upgrade for the money. If it’s mainly the exhaust wheel/housing that is the limiting factor when doing this “upgrade” I may not do it at all. I just thought for the $145 why not go a little larger. And try to use the pre-injection to bring up the efficiency. If it’s the exhaust that is limiting and not the compressor/housing, then maybe I’ll spend the money elsewhere.

Thanks for the explanation… ;)
 

SHaman

Proven Member
76
0
Jul 3, 2008
Frankfort, Asia
turboglenn. I read through the thread, but didn't see any numbers on the water with no IC. Can you tell me why you don't like it?
 

ulitka

Proven Member
151
12
Apr 9, 2009
Raleigh, North_Carolina
I would like to share my experience with intercoolers setup on e90 gas with Snow Performance Stage3 progressive water injection.

Setup:
* Turbo 68HTA with external wastegate off O2 max boost 30psi. Hot side fully ported.
* FP exhaust manifold
* FP intake pipe recirculated Tial BOV
* #1 nozzle (60ml/min) pre-turbo
* #6 nozzle (625ml/min) post-turbo mounted about 2" away from compressor cover flange
* 7 bolt built engine with stock cams, stock intake manifold, stock ported throttle body
* speed density setup with IAT mounted to TB elbow very close to TB flange.
* Snow Performance Stage3 water injection. Starts injecting at 18psi or 20% injector duty cycle, full injection at 30psi or 55% injector duty cycle (FIC 2150cc injectors).
Note: previous setup had a 4" FMIC with 3" cold side piping to a 3" boomba TB, to JMF drag intake manifold.

Observation:
1. Zero turbo lag between shifts
2. Spool up is about the same when doing WOT from 2K rpm to red line
3. IAT during WOT didn't go above 190deg F. Less water injection or smaller nozzles caused IAT go up to 250deg F.
4. I tried injecting window washer fluid and did not see any differences in IAT or performance.
5. with FMIC car felt stronger/faster. Ecmlink logs showed that with water injection WOT 2nd and 3rd gear pulls had about the same time compared to pulls with FMIC.
6. Water injection killed my ICS motor within two month of usage. It was a black ICS newer motor about 3 years old with less than 7K miles on it. When I disassembled the ICS, it was all corroded on the inside, bearings were seized, one of the coils read 12ohms.#

I installed a stock style ICS and experimented with lesser water injection and smaller nozzles to see if water stops entering ICS. After many configurations water still entered the ICS. I had to dry water out from ICS with hair drier and lubricate bearings after each water injection use.

Conclusion:
I would not run intercoolerless setup with water injection because I do not want to clean ICS motor after each use of water injection.#

It appears that water does not have enough time to vaporize due to short piping between turbo and TB. With some sort of intercooler water might have had a chance to vaporize and no water would accumulate in ICS.

I would not run per-turbo water injection because it erodes the compressor inducer outer blades within short period of time.

I am in process of installing a new super short route 3" FMIC by ETS. I am planning on experimenting with water injection to see if water still gets into TB and by how much I can drop the IAT beyond ambient temperature.
 

SHaman

Proven Member
76
0
Jul 3, 2008
Frankfort, Asia
i would like to see the before and after pictures of your compressor blades. Also your preturbo setup
 

YZFR1

Proven Member
536
54
Apr 8, 2010
Atlanta, Georgia
I also have been running intercoolerless for about six months, right now on hta68 with a pulled wastegate line. I love the setup but i would be lying if i said it wasn't high maintenance. Lol
 

whe3ls

Proven Member
911
4
Jun 23, 2008
spokane, Washington
im going to be trying this out on my elantra. still saving up for a meth setup.

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forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
Would be a good idea to run direct injection right on the intake runners to avoid sensor damage.
 

ulitka

Proven Member
151
12
Apr 9, 2009
Raleigh, North_Carolina
I'll take pictures today and post a link.

Note how corners of impeller blades are rounded:
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The brass plug on top of the FP intake pipe is where the pre-turbo water injection nozzle was connected to. Also, I had my Tial QR BOV recirculated at the time when I used pre-turbo injection, it might have contributed to the issue. After removing the pre-turbo nozzle, I plugged the recirculation port on the intake pipe and blow to atmosphere.
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Would be a good idea to run direct injection right on the intake runners to avoid sensor damage.

It would certainly eliminate damage to ICS plus other sensors where water may accumulate. Not sure about IAT cooling efficiency. Water may not turn into steam due to short travel through an intake system. It is my understanding the longer water travels through an intake system the better it cools down the IAT and turns into steam. You want steam to enter the combustion chamber.
 
Last edited:

forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
IMO, Not a big fan of water. I'd only do 100% meth. (not that water hasen't been proven to work as well). Could always run the water through copper lines wrapped around the exh. manifold to preheat it before injection as well.

In my case, The direct port stuff wouldn't atomize as well in a tiny runner VS say a 3-4" charge pipe. I had issues with the larger nozzles in the runners. I believe it just puddled. Ended up running much smaller nozzles at higher pressures to "fix it". Worked pretty well. I had mine installed at 90* to the flow of the runner. Would be much better (and harder) to mount the nozzle inline with the airflow.

Those NOS "NOSzle" kits that slip in under the injectors would make for a slick direction alky kit IMO.

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turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
So for those who haven't seen the 1g I'm now building, due to my FMIC being too large to be installed on a car that week see daily driving, this "test" is back in session and week get a much more thorough tune and much deeper tweaking and reported back on. Racing this thread i feel i gave up way too early last time, and honestly didn't try worth a damn to rally see the potential of the alky as a sole cooling method.. but this time in doing it right.. in depth results week be posted here, the cliff notes will be in my second chance panda build thread..

Stay tuned
 
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