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Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

Car Cannibal

15+ Year Contributor
466
27
Jun 7, 2003
Chicago, Illinois
Jesus, you're all over the place Turboglen. :thumb:

I admire your quest for power and wished you would've maxed out the no intercooler/meth injection setup before moving on multiple times. Though I can't blame you for going with E85 and an intercooler.

IMO, if you were to go M2 or M3 pre turbo water injection and then had two M15 nozzles running straight meth you would've achieved your low inlet temps and denser air charge, especially if you eventually went with a much larger turbo like a 61mm.

Meth will cool the charge more than water, the GN crowd proved this years ago and a few others on here have the theory to back that up.

I agree that using the water pre turbo might be an issue with the turbo blades in the long run, but it would help the turbo at higher psi make the charge denser and act like a slightly bigger turbo. And most of us change turbos every 30k miles anyways so who cares right?:sneaky:

And running no IC and pipes is a nice plus in spool up, weight and $$.
 

H82lose91

20+ Year Contributor
169
1
Jul 30, 2002
BFE, Virginia
Just thought i would add to this thread. Went to the track sunday. Ran ok not great. Went [email protected] full weight E316g modded sidemount, pumpas and Methanol. Running a single M15. Ambient was 91*. IATs even with sitting in the staging lanes would drop into the low 80's and climb just into the 100's through the trap. Not bad in my opinion. This was on 19psi as well. No knock.

Tonight i dropped the modded SMIC. Saw an increase of roughly 1psi (still need to intake leak test since this change) IATS in 4th peaked at 120* ambient measured at the start of logging was 91* as well. Not bad. Injection is again single nozzle pre-TBE post BOV. No knock.

Tomorrow adding a M10 and putting some timing back in up top. Maybe hit the track again friday.
 

RipperXX

Proven Member
5,793
163
Feb 23, 2003
Royston, Georgia
"Yes it does . There was post turbo injection in the first log. Then the second and third there was post turbo and preturbo injection. The only difference is the introduction of the preturbo injection. Dsmlink shows a clear hp increase injecting preturbo without a retune: 30hp difference. After the retune there was an increase in 10 peak hp. There is a 50hp increase at 5K between not using preturbo injection and after using it. The powerband is GOBS wider."



That alone almost makes me want to ditch my GM MAFT setup and go with a 2G MAF or something (not sure what is REALLY best 2g, Evo MAF etc.) And start injecting pre-turbo. I still don't see how it possible for it to help so damn much I get it's at the source of the compressing air and so that makes since that it will absorbe more heat. But it's taking up space as well. But I guess the denser air more than makes up for it.


Anyway 30-50hp more just from that and then throw in a set of cams to boot. Wow, that would make a day and night difference.



Any idea how much broader the power band was? ( I have limited time online so and actually have to go now so I can't read this whole thread to try to find out) THX
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
. . . I still don't see how it possible for it to help so damn much I get it's at the source of the compressing air and so that makes since that it will absorbe more heat. But it's taking up space as well. But I guess the denser air more than makes up for it.
Well, the theory goes for wet compression-- which is pre-compressor injection-- is that the air temp at the compressor is far over the boiling point for water. So when the water mist reaches this air, it "explosively" changes state to a gas. This sudden expansion actually compresses air. It's not about simply absorbing heat. It's about absorbing the energy and converting back to usable work. Since the lost heat is now doing work compressing air, less work is needed from the turbine shaft. The compressor rpm goes down to keep the boost the same and more exhaust has to be wastegated for that to happen. Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling.

So less energy needed to reach a boost level means that the turbo looks like it spools faster, and means that the backpressure in the exhaust manifold is lower for that particular boost number. More power and more power earlier. It is like running a VERY efficient small compressor wheel.

NASA did some experimenting where the water injection was turned way up and 50% of the fuel was removed. This was done post compressor. But the engine maintained nearly the same power level and in many instances gained power. They theorized that the otto cycle engine only uses about 30% of the energy of the fuel burn and does no more significant work by 35ish degrees ATDC. The rest of the energy at that point is heat. The addition of enough water into the combustion stroke absorbed that energy VERY fast and expanded VERY fast through the entire stroke from 35 degrees ATDC to BDC. A gas/steam hybrid. The same principle: expansion of water mist is used to recover lost energy wasted as heat.
 

RipperXX

Proven Member
5,793
163
Feb 23, 2003
Royston, Georgia
Since the lost heat is now doing work compressing air, less work is needed from the turbine shaft. The compressor rpm goes down to keep the boost the same and more exhaust has to be wastegated for that to happen. Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling.

So less energy needed to reach a boost level means that the turbo looks like it spools faster, and means that the backpressure in the exhaust manifold is lower for that particular boost number. More power and more power earlier. It is like running a VERY efficient small compressor wheel.

Wouldn't that only apply to a wastegate setup that is vented?


NASA did some experimenting where the water injection was turned way up and 50% of the fuel was removed. This was done post compressor. But the engine maintained nearly the same power level and in many instances gained power. They theorized that the otto cycle engine only uses about 30% of the energy of the fuel burn and does no more significant work by 35ish degrees ATDC. The rest of the energy at that point is heat. The addition of enough water into the combustion stroke absorbed that energy VERY fast and expanded VERY fast through the entire stroke from 35 degrees ATDC to BDC. A gas/steam hybrid. The same principle: expansion of water mist is used to recover lost energy wasted as heat.


See this I find VERY interesting because there are a few guys in Japan that are running a gas/water hybrid skyline. They claim they doubled the fuel mileage of the car from like 350 to about 800 miles per tank. And they claim there is no power loss.

I didn't know how credible it was since it was on youtube but hey, that makes it sound very possible.
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Wouldn't that only apply to a wastegate setup that is vented?

No all wastegate deigns apply. Any wastegate when open flows better than any turbine wheel for your engine. Or you would never get spool.

See this I find VERY interesting because there are a few guys in Japan that are running a gas/water hybrid skyline. They claim they doubled the fuel mileage of the car from like 350 to about 800 miles per tank. And they claim there is no power loss.

I didn't know how credible it was since it was on youtube but hey, that makes it sound very possible.
It's not just possible. It was done in the 30s by NACA (now NASA) :) . Imagine brewing your own ethanol and making e-85 for about $1.45 per gal. (Mr Peepers control yourself :) .) You'll get 22 mpg if you stay out of her with e-85. Then double that fuel mileage. 44mpg and paying $1.45 for each gallon. With 102 octane, you'll have more potential too.
 

RipperXX

Proven Member
5,793
163
Feb 23, 2003
Royston, Georgia
No all wastegate deigns apply. Any wastegate when open flows better than any turbine wheel for your engine. Or you would never get spool.

Um yea, I understand that. But the way you worded it I guess confused me. Your comment about lowering backpressure and something about exhaust out the tail pipe made me think you were talking about a vented waste gate setup and it overall lowering the back pressure on the whole system.



And yes that would be awesome if it were a fairly easy conversion (that didn't look ugly as sin LOL) And mixing your own fuel would help keep it more consistant as well. But untill that shit goes mainstream (if ever) I guess i'll still pay at the pump :(
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Um yea, I understand that. But the way you worded it I guess confused me. Your comment about lowering backpressure and something about exhaust out the tail pipe made me think you were talking about a vented waste gate setup and it overall lowering the back pressure on the whole system.
I'll quote what I sid: "Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling." Flow out the tailpipe uninhibited is, simply, what a wastegate does. It's better for an O2 dump. But still ANY wastegate provides a path for exhaust to basically free flow.


And yes that would be awesome if it were a fairly easy conversion (that didn't look ugly as sin LOL) And mixing your own fuel would help keep it more consistant as well. But untill that shit goes mainstream (if ever) I guess i'll still pay at the pump :(

Conversion? of what? to running e-85? This is simply an injector upgrade. Or if your injectors are big enough, simply a retune. . .

Running high water flow to mimic NACA's results is just a nozzle upgrade and tuning the fuel really lean. Still no visual difference.
 

RipperXX

Proven Member
5,793
163
Feb 23, 2003
Royston, Georgia
I'll quote what I sid: "Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling." Flow out the tailpipe uninhibited is, simply, what a wastegate does. It's better for an O2 dump. But still ANY wastegate provides a path for exhaust to basically free flow.




Conversion? of what? to running e-85? This is simply an injector upgrade. Or if your injectors are big enough, simply a retune. . .

Running high water flow to mimic NACA's results is just a nozzle upgrade and tuning the fuel really lean. Still no visual difference.


The reason for my comment about about it looking like sin was the vid of the skyline I watched had all kinds of tanks and hoses and shit under the hood. Not like a normal water/meth injection setup at all.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
Wow! I'm glad to see this thread still going and people still experimenting themselves and adding their data/experiences.

The 16G car and it's owner (drdougless) have moved to tennesee, so i will not get to finish that test (which is why you haven't seen updates from me on this) Also his s16g got so worn that it's spooling really slowly (not making full boost until well after 3500 RPM) So he will have a 20g on it here sometime in the near future. But he still ran a 12.10 ET in the 1/4 mile a few weekends ago down in TN. Then he blew an IC pipe but thought it was somethign else and trailored the car home.

Once i get my 20g on, i will start the experiemnt over with pre-turbo vs. post turbo and maybe even push the no FMIC test a little further since i'll have to make new pipes to accomodate the MHI turbo replacing the garrett.
 

turbotalon1g

Proven Member
1,080
38
Oct 19, 2005
Blaine, Minnesota
I am assuming that you guys saw the english racing threads.
So any update, this does intrigue me a lot. I use E85 here in MN and i would pick up a Meth kit too.
 

19BLACKGST98

Proven Member
711
3
Nov 6, 2003
McKinney, Texas
This thread was a great read. I look forward to seeing your future results. Im new to the world of Meth injection so now that the kit is sitting at my house im trying to find out everything I can about it.
 

twack

Proven Member
607
2
Oct 11, 2005
winona, Minnesota
Ive been interested in this ever since i saw that auto car do 10s or 11s with no intercooler. Something i want to try if i get a project auto car is get that air filter that has a nitrous line to it. this way you get a little boost and you would keep the air cold
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
I haven't much played with it since going to E85, but i was having great luck with it. The one odd benefit was that the higher cruising air temps made the engine a lot smoother at a steady state drive

I still use the meth when i can't get e85 or sometimes i use it pre-turbo in hot weather and to prevent compresser surge at high boost partial throttle conditions
 

romeen

DSM Wiseman
2,532
36
Jul 12, 2006
Vancouver, Washington
I haven't much played with it since going to E85, but i was having great luck with it. The one odd benefit was that the higher cruising air temps made the engine a lot smoother at a steady state drive

I still use the meth when i can't get e85 or sometimes i use it pre-turbo in hot weather and to prevent compresser surge at high boost partial throttle conditions


Interesting. I recently switched my thermostat from 180* to 195*. Car is noticeably smoother to drive under light throttle/cruising. Maybe due to more complete combustion of the fuel (?). Can't say yet the net affect (if any) on knock.

I know IAT's aren't necessarily related to coolant temps but the end result in the combustion chamber is.
 

forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
I haven't much played with it since going to E85, but i was having great luck with it. The one odd benefit was that the higher cruising air temps made the engine a lot smoother at a steady state drive

I still use the meth when i can't get e85 or sometimes i use it pre-turbo in hot weather and to prevent compresser surge at high boost partial throttle conditions

Interesting read. I'm surprised you added an IC instead of going farther with the e85 and meth injection. I think if you utilized the meth pre and post turbo with the E85 an IC would not be necessary. You'd save weight and spool time.

Also noticed you said your meth turn on point was 10psi? Did you ever lower this? I also originally started my post meth injection at 10psi. Since I went with a pre-turbo setup I have mine set to kick on at 4-5psi and it improves spool up time noticeably. I'm temped to install a temp prob post TB to get accurate temp readings.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
I'm still brining the W/I on about 7-10 psi and only running pre-turbo for the time being. But now i'm running nitrous to spool the turbo and it's much quicker when i decide to use it.. the methanol is now mainly for adjusting the compressor map and cooling things off

Haven't touched pump gas in so long i've barely needed the alky injection but hooked it up and filled the bottle when summer hit since it was still in the car
 

forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
I'm still brining the W/I on about 7-10 psi and only running pre-turbo for the time being. But now i'm running nitrous to spool the turbo and it's much quicker when i decide to use it.. the methanol is now mainly for adjusting the compressor map and cooling things off

Haven't touched pump gas in so long i've barely needed the alky injection but hooked it up and filled the bottle when summer hit since it was still in the car



Thanks for the update....

Almost got mynew motor ready to go. Trying 9:1 and e-85 this time around. Looking at upgrading my e316g with a 20g wheel and hogged out 16g comp housing.

Hoping the pre injection will really shine in this situation. Hopefully counter acts the extra heat created by the larger wheel in the smaller housing. Plan on turning alot of heads at the track this fall with my stock appearing turbo/engine. Shooting for a 120 trap. Optimistic I know... We'll see. :thumb:
 

forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
The smaller compressor housing actually increases efficiency of the compressor at a sacrifice of total flow. It doesn't cause more heat ;)

So what causes the sacrifice in total flow if not the bottle neck housing and additional heat? :hmm:
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
:) Here are compressor maps with the td05h compressor cover and td06 compressor cover over the big 16g compressor wheel. Remember the big 16g has the same fin shape and exducer diameter as the 20g compressor wheel:

90302d1229644479-difference-between-small-16g-big-16g-compressor-cover-comparison.jpg


Actually the peak flows are not that different. . . But the efficiency favors the smaller cover :) . The rpm curves drop less drastic with the map on the right. Some speculation on the subject: click.

There's a reason why the fp68hta still utilizes the td05h compressor cover ;) .
 

jp91gsturbo

Proven Member
54
1
Jul 24, 2009
Snow Hill, North_Carolina
Ok so this is my frist time even looking into doing water/meth injection. I've read the first 5 pages of this thread and can say I've learned more on the subject and how/what makes power than I have from anywhere else. I have a few questions though. And yes I know for the most part its an old thread, just seeing if anyone has input still.

1. Can you phase or start the injection before boost to keep down the temps of the compressing air from spiking?

2. Does the fmic or smic help the spiking temps stay down?

3. How much of the mix would you say you go through per gallon of gas?

4. May have missed this, but what was the difference in iat's from no fmic to fmic.

I was very interested in the findings from the s16g as i have a s16g compressor wheel in a 14b housing. I had to laugh a little when someone had brought up the idea of a 16g with a 14b spool time as well I know what its like. I'm starting to get curious as to if adding a pre turbo injection would get the spool times down to something similar to the 13g or maybe even a smaller turbo, yet still make the power of the 16g. Also I would love any ideas on getting iat's under ambient temperatures as it seems like every summer it gets hotter and hotter in NC. The past two months we've already seen atleast 15 days over 100*. I would love to be able to go to the track and seen iat's under 80* on one of these warm summer days. Anyway thanks ahead of time for any info and the space for this drawn out post.
 

forcefed86

Proven Member
1,007
12
May 23, 2006
wichita, Kansas
:) Here are compressor maps with the td05h compressor cover and td06 compressor cover over the big 16g compressor wheel. Remember the big 16g has the same fin shape and exducer diameter as the 20g compressor wheel:

90302d1229644479-difference-between-small-16g-big-16g-compressor-cover-comparison.jpg


Actually the peak flows are not that different. . . But the efficiency favors the smaller cover :) . The rpm curves drop less drastic with the map on the right. Some speculation on the subject: click.

There's a reason why the fp68hta still utilizes the td05h compressor cover ;) .

Ok, but that still doesn't tell me what makes a 20g wheel less effecient in a td05H cover? It seems from what I've read you pick up on the mid range and the total flow is not that much different from the big 16g. Something has to be limiting this wheel in the upper range or it would be flowing more than the big 16g throught the entire range. If it's not heat... what is it?
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
It isnt less efficient on the compressor side. Most see the td05h 20g fall on it's face up top when they are using the td05h turbine wheel (td05h 20g refers to the td05h turbine wheel mated to a 20g compressor wheel). No one really complains when the larger turbine wheels are used, or when the 05h is clipped.

What goes in must come out. The compressor can be 100% efficient up to choke but if the turbine is too small for the compressor flow, it will fall on it's face.
 
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