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Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
I've had a 30 hp difference in DSMLink's estimation from mild heat soak, just to show how big a difference intake temps can cause. How can you say injecting an extra 40% water/meth gives no increase in performance? It's not like he was flowing so much water/meth that adding more would have gave minimal benefits--a M5 nozzle at 150 psig is only 385 cc/min. There is absolutely nothing that definitively shows that the gains were caused by the M2 being pre-turbo.

You yourself stated that the MAS should still eventually see more airflow from the pre-turbo injection if it is indeed working according to your thinking.

I said that it should show more airflow if you're pushing the compressor off its map (losing boost). It's what that entire aquamist thread that started this whole pre-turbo thing says :). That's not happening here.

I can say that injecting an extra 40% of water/meth gives no increase in performance with his particular percentage injection flow to fuel flow because it never has with me with SEVERAL very different cars/setups. I've been doing this water injection thing for a while. There was an increase in power because I tuned for higher boost and more timing. 385cc/min is the IDEAL nozzle size for 750s maxing out at 63% idc. Thats 20% injection flow for unit fuel flow. This would yield the best results without too much water that would actually, possible take power away.

The test I am running suggesting would actually provide some evidence that the pre-turbo placement is what is causing this change. I mean hell, how do you run ANY experiment without some sort of control? I'm not trying to downplay what you're doing as I think it's great you've got the initiative to actually go out and do testing--that's great! But, adding a control would make your results ten-fold more credible.
I understand what you are saying. But, wet compression causes the water turn to steam at the compressor exducer. It will never reach the combustion chamber to slow the burn rate if it has already changed states. If you inject enough to leave water droplets remaining for a change of state in the combustion chamber, then your compressor is seeing those droplets at a point of its highest speed (the exducer). I wouldn't suggest it except for the last experiment to do on that turbo. Regrdless there is no way that your experiment can be controlled properly. You'll have to run the exact octane fuel the injection post turbo nets. Or you'll have to know the amount of water is being vaporized in the compressor to know how much will remain for the combustion chamber. . .

It's like saying that meth injection vs. water injection should be teted with using the nozzle flow as the control. If you inject the same amount of meth as reqired for water to be effective at preventing knock, then you'll see likely more knock. But the PROPER amount of meth (3-4 times more) does better than water at charge cooling and provides similar knock retardant.

In otherwords, he's testing a well-tuned (injection nozzle and all) post turbo system VS. the same system that now adds enough water pre-turbo to vaporize competely in the compressor (tiny m2 nozzle).
 

romeen

DSM Wiseman
2,532
36
Jul 12, 2006
Vancouver, Washington
Glenn, at what boost pressure did you set the system to activate? Have you tried playing around with activation points to see how this affects performance?
 

jshuman

Proven Member
254
18
Oct 8, 2006
Vienna, West_Virginia
The test I am running suggesting would actually provide some evidence that the pre-turbo placement is what is causing this change. I mean hell, how do you run ANY experiment without some sort of control? I'm not trying to downplay what you're doing as I think it's great you've got the initiative to actually go out and do testing--that's great! But, adding a control would make your results ten-fold more credible.

I am just trying to see this from both sides. You are saying to do a couple pulls with the M5 at the tb elbow. Then after letting it cool, move the nozzle pre-turbo and do a couple more pulls and compare the results. Is this correct?
If so, I think I see where you are coming from. You are saying that the hp increase could soley be due to the increase in meth?
I think the problem with this test is that his vehicle was tuned with the m5 at the tb elbow.

What if he tested first with the m5 at the tb alone. Then added the m2 shortly after the compressor outlet and test again. Finally, remove the m2 from its post compressor location, plug the hole, and add the m2 at a pre-compressor location.
With this test you can see:
1. The power with the amount of meth he was tuned at.
2. The comparison between just the m5, and the m5 with the m2 post-compressor.
3. The comparison of the m5 alone, and the m5 with the m2 pre-compressor.
4. Comparison of the m5 and m2 post-compressor versus the m5 and m2 pre-compressor.

With the 4th comparison, I think you would find the answer to the issue at hand.
It would answer the question, "Is the meth being injected pre-compressor causing the dramatic hp increase, or is it just the addition of more meth?"

Those are just my thoughts, I am no expert though.
Justin
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
Ajax, we were running 18psi and 2 meth nozzles. An M5 pre turbo and an M7 post turbo, pre intercooler and pig right at 10.3:1 (extra rich incase of a meth shortage, i may start to knock from timing advance if the tank runs dry, but i dont' want to run lean).

These new tests are on the car like yours i was telling you about.

jshuman
The car has been tested extensively with the M5 nozzle at the TB and without. I seriously doubt that the owner is going to want to see how low he can make his power first since he has never seen HP like this on the car before (even with more boost) Plus, i doubt he wants to go drilling holes all over his IC pipes like i did. I am only testing the addition of pre-turbo meth. We can however put an M7 (5+2 same flow rate) in the TB and test with the same amount of meth through one nozzle as we are running through the whole system.

Romeen, good question.. The meth comes on with the nitrous control of teh DSMlink, it comes on at 3k RPM and above and anything over 70% thorttle. So there doens't ahve to be any boost pressure, but the 16g is already cranking up at that RPM so teh actual boost numbers could vary greatly i'm sure.

Our/My goal is 350 reliable HP from the S16g, i know that's not a ton of power, but if we hit that we;ll be happy with the results and some where around this point is where the little 16g is going to be falling off so we will see if the map "gets larger" or not

Matt.. thanks for that explantion in your last post. I think that should help clear up a lot of questions about why we are not going to go back to no meth period at any time during this test, but the ozzles will stay a constant unless we find we need more, but i doubt we will.
 

2gGSX

Proven Member
1,956
28
Feb 15, 2004
St. Louis, Missouri
I said that it should show more airflow if you're pushing the compressor off its map (losing boost). It's what that entire aquamist thread that started this whole pre-turbo thing says :). That's not happening here.

Ah, then that was a misunderstanding. I'll confess I never bothered reading through that:coy:

I can say that injecting an extra 40% of water/meth gives no increase in performance with his particular percentage injection flow to fuel flow because it never has with me with SEVERAL very different cars/setups.

I've got nothing to argue against this, so, as the engineers say...theory never trumps practice.

I understand what you are saying. But, wet compression causes the water turn to steam at the compressor exducer. It will never reach the combustion chamber to slow the burn rate if it has already changed states.

In this case, are you saying that the same M2 nozzle placed in the LICP pre-intercooler would not have all its fluid vaporized/evaporated by the time it reached the combustion chamber? If placed as close to the compressor outlet as possible, the fluid would be given the greatest amount of time before hitting the IC to absorb as much heat as possible to maximize the phase change, as well as being mechanically sheared by the sheer velocity of the intake charge. Assuming both methods (pre-turbo and nozzle at the outlet) both allow for equal vaporization, there should be no re-condensing and thus no effective octane change.

Justin's procedure sounds like it would work just as well, if you guys are willing to try it out.

Edit--just saw Glen's post, so scratch that idea then.
 

jshuman

Proven Member
254
18
Oct 8, 2006
Vienna, West_Virginia
I totally understand. Dont get me wrong, I am a believer in the powers of pre-compressor injection. I was just trying to think of how to get concrete proof. I trust what the logs are telling us though, and you have proven its effectiveness on your car as well. I don't need further proof.... it was just an idea.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
I totally understand. Dont get me wrong, I am a believer in the powers of pre-compressor injection. I was just trying to think of how to get concrete proof. I trust what the logs are telling us though, and you have proven its effectiveness on your car as well. I don't need further proof.... it was just an idea.

If it were my car i'd have no issues putting all the nozzles where ever. But not being my car i have limited time to work on the experiment so i have to make that time as usefull as i can. And since the car has been running the M5 nozzle succesfully, my first thought was to just add a second nozzle (i had suggested an M3 or 5 but the owner finally chose an M2 and it's working great!!! I'm glad we're able to start small)
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
In this case, are you saying that the same M2 nozzle placed in the LICP pre-intercooler would not have all its fluid vaporized/evaporated by the time it reached the combustion chamber? If placed as close to the compressor outlet as possible, the fluid would be given the greatest amount of time before hitting the IC to absorb as much heat as possible to maximize the phase change, as well as being mechanically sheared by the sheer velocity of the intake charge. Assuming both methods (pre-turbo and nozzle at the outlet) both allow for equal vaporization, there should be no re-condensing and thus no effective octane change.
I see where you're coming from. It makes good sense. BUT, there is no phase change without enough heat energy to cause it. There's simply not enough heat energy in the intake track to vaporize the flow of an m2 nozzle. ESPECIALLY with the combination of meth. Just because you see a mist disapate doesn't mean that it extracted the energy from it's surroundings to become invisible (small enough droplets to be unseen).

Shearing the water to finer droplets (small nozzle or internal intercooler fins) gives it more opportunity to vaporize. . . But I don't see a sub-300 degree intake tract doing that where the mix has some meth cooling the charge. The compressor isn't even rendering 300 degree temps yet, based on the compressor map and the boost pressure used. 300+ degrees might barely be enough to vaporize that small amount of water in the time it takes to get into the intake manifold. Who knows though. The intercooler internal fins may be enough to shear the droplets to a small enough size to mazimize the opportunity and it may occur. Thus why everyone who injects pre-intercooler raves about it and notices how COLD the intercooler becomes.

Good point though in another sense, too. Glenn you're preturbo nozzle is farther away from the turbo inlet than those who tested it in the aquamist thread. . . Perhaps that's all thats really needed to insure no compressor damage, a little distance.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
That was my hole reason for putting it so far out. I wanted the air-speed in the intake to the turbo to have a little extra time to try and help disperse teh water into a finer mist, although i've been questioning the effectiveness of this lately.
 

jshuman

Proven Member
254
18
Oct 8, 2006
Vienna, West_Virginia
As far as pre-compressor damage is concerned, is there any thought given to what is being injected. Like if damage is more likely to occur when using water, meth, or denatured. I was also wondering if the damage actually resulted from contaminants in the injection. I was thinking that maybe dirt stuck in the intake could have been pushed into the turbo by the alcohol/water.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
Well, the intakes were cleaned to prevent any built up particles from coming loose and going in the compressor housing. Water has the highest surface tension of the 3 liquids (water, methanol and denatured alcohol) So it would be the most damaging, we will be observing and documenting (and disclosing) any damage done by these tests (which i doubt there will be any on such short term tests) But since the setups will remain on noth cars indefinately, any future damage will be reported as well.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
Went by there tonight and loaned him a compressor. He's going to do a leak down test to see if there's any intake leaks. He also said that he got his airflow slider settings from some one else's map but they are working so it's never been calibrated as per the link that was posted about it, we are also going to take care of that at the next tuning/testing session (probably this Sunday or maybe one evening this week)

We are going to go straight for 24psi next. We will run it at 24 with only the M7 at the TB, and then with the addition of the M2 pre-turbo ( we thought it was a 5 until he pulled it apart today and found it was a 7, so there's a correction to my previous statements)

We will back the timing down ONLY if need be for the test with only the 7 alone, but we are going to try and keep a locked timing curve to eliminate variables in the HP readings on DSMlink so every result can be attributed to the 2nd meth nozzle pre-turbo

IF we do have to back it down to avoid knock, we will NOT turn it back up for the test with the extra meth pre-turbo, just to avoid making any changes be a factor in power readings from link.

stay tuned
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
The 16g car is on hold until the owner is back in town (next week i think)

But as for my car... Now that i'm on E85, i've been thinking about no FMIC tests again. How different is ethanol from methanol in it's heat absorbtion and other things like that? I'm no chemist or scientist, so i'm counting on some of our more knowledgeble members to tell me what they think

I was reading a big arrticle on ethanol in hotrod magazine and honda just changed there indy or formula car (can't remember which) from methanol to ethanol, so i believe this fuel might be damn near as good as the methanol if not better in some ways. *shrugs*
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,593
117
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
If you're running e85 as your primary fuel instead of gasoline, then you can likely get away with a smaller intercooler. E85 is cools so much more than gasoline. . . But the injectors are at the head port. I doubt there's enough time to really get the benefits of charge cooling. Injectors are always working. So if there is enough time, then running e85 may restore some of that cool aircharge consistancy that is lost when running gasoline without an IC. Your air temp sensors won't show this. But, your maf might.

However, I'll bet you can run more boost with less knock with no IC vs. gas with no IC.
 

->PrOjEcTGS<-

Probationary Member
2,682
21
Oct 14, 2002
Missouri
I'm trying to put together my very own WI/Meth setup. Hope to have it done by the time we all go to the track. But I don't plan on eliminating the intercooler I just want to run the stock side mount


BTW, Glenn will you be there on MAY 16th @ KCIR? Let me know so I can add you to my list of people.

~Andrew~
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
If you're running e85 as your primary fuel instead of gasoline, then you can likely get away with a smaller intercooler. E85 is cools so much more than gasoline. . . But the injectors are at the head port. I doubt there's enough time to really get the benefits of charge cooling. Injectors are always working. So if there is enough time, then running e85 may restore some of that cool aircharge consistancy that is lost when running gasoline without an IC. Your air temp sensors won't show this. But, your maf might.

However, I'll bet you can run more boost with less knock with no IC vs. gas with no IC.

I don't have a MAF, i'm speed density, so i likely won't see the effects in any other way except for knock (or a lack there of)

I'm trying to put together my very own WI/Meth setup. Hope to have it done by the time we all go to the track. But I don't plan on eliminating the intercooler I just want to run the stock side mount


BTW, Glenn will you be there on MAY 16th @ KCIR? Let me know so I can add you to my list of people.

~Andrew~

Is there a place near KCIR where i could get an axle if need be? That's my only week link in the drivetrain now days and they are the stock 97 axles, i don't want o have to buy them both ahead of time, but i don't want to be stuck in KC because of a blown CV either.. If i have to buy axles before coming down i won't be able to afford slicks:(

I will be there! I still haven't gotten slicks again yet, but i at least have the money for em :) Just gotta go get them ordered and mounted before i come down... i WILL hit 11's if it takes every last pound of boost i have (who knows, i might put the nitrous back on before then as well, but i doubt it)

Yeah Glenn Honda (Indycar) has been running Ethanol or started it since 2006.

Didn't know that... You're just up on all the knowledge aren't ya :) That's agood thing though, never heard of being so smart that its' a bad thing
.. Any chances of you making it to the drag meet in kansas city on the 16th???? You can come to my place and crasht eh night ebfore if you want and we can all caravan together!
 

->PrOjEcTGS<-

Probationary Member
2,682
21
Oct 14, 2002
Missouri
My freind works @ O'Reilly's and he should be able to find a store close to the track and put them in stock for you just in case. Let me get with him to see if that's a possiblilty. Might be able to get a discount on them too! :D If it comes down to it there is a Mitsu dealer in Lee's Summit and that's just a short drive away.

OK I'm adding you to the list!!
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
That sounds good, that's better than not knowing anyone at a parts store if i do break something, and i won't have to buy parts for "just in case" which makes me happy!

So Yea, add me on for sure, that way i can't back out LOL... I haven't hit KCIR since god knows when (some number of years ago, but i always get my best times there) My last trip i went 12.08 at 117MPH on 19psi. Now i'm running a set of cams, TRE tranny and E85 ( and a hundred other things i can't think of right away) and I will be pushing 24 psi or so (that's about the end of my injectors right now, but i may push em further when i'm there...depends on how fast i get booted if i can eclipse the 11 second barrier.

I'm going to set up my suspension this week coming so that i have a nice equal load on the front end, but i'm going to have to get my slicks first so i set it up with the right amount of clearance for them. I know my 26 inchers wouldn't fit on my car the way it is, but im going to go 24" this year so i don't have such a gap between 2nd and 3rd.

Man, have they worked on the shut down lane at that place at all? The last time i was there i felt like i was going to wreck my car when trying to stop on that gravel road they call the shut down LOL

If i can't break 11's on this setup, then i'm straight retarded or something's broken on the car LOL LOL
 

->PrOjEcTGS<-

Probationary Member
2,682
21
Oct 14, 2002
Missouri
I believe three years ago they repaved the whole track not sure if they have done it since. I have not been in a long time also.
 

->PrOjEcTGS<-

Probationary Member
2,682
21
Oct 14, 2002
Missouri
So I guess the next question is: Will you be running the front mount at the track or the strait pipe and crazy water/meth injection before and after turbo? I would be interested to see how the later performs.
 

turboglenn

Proven Member
6,377
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
Well, if i figure out what's knocking on my car, i'll be running E85 with water/meth injection before and after the turbo. I can feel mid 11's all day long in this thing if i can just hook up. But now i have to get this knock taken care of or i'm not going to be there. Now i'm thankful it's changed to the 23rd
 

GS-T_Newboost

Proven Member
249
2
Sep 13, 2007
Savannah, Georgia
This is a realy great thread that has solved a few of my meth questions and has also helped me figure my final setup
 
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