Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

[turboglenn]

Anyone got any advice on my above piost reguarding what temps are constituted as "acceptable"?

Anyway, this post is to inform everyone that the test should be wrapped up tomorow. I've got new IC piping to build and then will be going back to using it. There's still a test of pure water to come, and i will test it tomorrow right before the FMIC re-install.

After getting the intercooler back on i'm going to get back to testing how far i can push it on pump + meth. I'm going striaght to 26 psi and going for the most aggressicve tune i cna pull out of it, then i'll dial it back on timing and up the AFR by a half point for a safety margin.

 

[H82lose91]

Cooler air = denser air = More Power. To me the goal is to keep temps ambient if not cooler. If i cant do that i might as well buy one of the new BR intercoolers.

 

[turboglenn]

Cooler air = denser air = More Power. To me the goal is to keep temps ambient if not cooler. If i cant do that i might as well buy one of the new BR intercoolers.

Thanks for chiming in, i'm starting to think no one's even readingthis thread and am just keeping it up for my own archival purposes since i haven't kep the data noted anywhere else.

Yea,in intake air temps that's the general rule, i was just wondering what some people get away with and still make good nubers. But i'm not too worried since i'm going back to my FMIC either way tomorrow. I need to check out buschurs new race core. They've always picked great parts, even when they aren't the bigger or normally "better known" parts.

I use the oldschool core form spearco that buschur use to sell in the "jumper front mount" kit. It's the one with both inlets on the same side and it's shaped kinda like a triangle, and was used on a lot of grand nationals and rx-7's back in the day.

I got it years ago and even today it is still one of the best flowing and best cooling units i've come across for its size and price, because i've seen some of the monster IC's out there really keep temps low. But on 95* summer days with 70% humidity i'm only seeing IAT's of 127-135 after a LONG hard pull in the summer. On these cooler days i never see intake temps over 100 at the TB in 50-60* weather and when it's in the 30's and 40's my intake temps are usually around 65-80. All of these figures are pulled from the data at the end of 3 back to back 2nd to 3rd full pulls.

Although it's not the best temp drop, it holds it through a long pull where a lot of the Greedy and other "import kits" seem to loose efficiency and start getting temps up higher than those by the end of the first gear.

 

[romeen]

Thanks for chiming in, i'm starting to think no one's even readingthis thread and am just keeping it up for my own archival purposes since i haven't kep the data noted anywhere else.

Actually, I have been following this thread very closely and I always look forward to new results after each change that you make. The time and effort you have put into this is definitely appreciated.

In fact, I just recommended you for some well deserved rep points for this.

I'm still hoping to convince you to try a small pre-intercooler nozzle to see how dramatically that affects inlet temps. I know that it is generally not recommended, but then again neither is pre-compressor injection.

 

[turboglenn]

Actually, I have been following this thread very closely and I always look forward to new results after each change that you make. The time and effort you have put into this is definitely appreciated.

In fact, I just recommended you for some well deserved rep points for this..

Thank you! And I'm glad to hear there's a few out there that are at least getting a good read from this!

I'm still hoping to convince you to try a small pre-intercooler nozzle to see how dramatically that affects inlet temps. I know that it is generally not recommended, but then again neither is pre-compressor injection.

Will do, I was thinking about it anyway since my IC is fashioned in a way that nothing can puddle in it if i use the bottom inlet to go to the TB. Since you requested it, I will make that part of the "follow up" of this thread. I will take logs before and after and compare an M7 nozzle pre-intercooler against the same nozzle post IC and no meth/water at all at the same boost probably keep to the 20psi range since i can run that all day with no meth and the same timing curve i use when injecting it.

About the logs!! - >? Is anyone looking at them? I will post more if so, but after no feedback on them i just took it no one was taking the time to load the software and configure the settings to properly read the data as I'm seeing/using it...please let me know on this one

 

[2gGSX]

To answer your question about typical IAT increases--Buschur had consistent readings of 5-10*F over ambient with the Garrett 4" core. Important things to note are that these were all from 4th gear dyno pulls on 35R or similarly sized turbos and lots of boost. Unfortunately there won't be an overwhelming amount of data since the vast majority of DSMers never go SD and thus never get around to installing/logging IATs. Wish I could be of some more help.

 

[romeen]

Looking at the setups of guys who are using pre-IC injection it seems that not a lot is needed pre-IC. An M7 at this location may be a bit much. During some product R&D, Aquamist found that only a 70cc/min nozzle pre-IC not only completely prevented heat soak but actually kept the IC cool to the touch during back to back dyno pulls. A member on this forum has had excellent results running an M3 pre-IC and I believe an M5 pre-TB.

However, I have to admit that the guys who are using pre-IC injection are typically running SMIC's. So for you the benefits probably won't be as profound. I plan on running an M2 upstream of my Hahn SMIC and an M5 pre-TB.

Basically, I'm interested to see if pre-IC injection can actually get intake temps below ambient?!

 

[rrussell]

I also appreciate the great write ups and real data.

Its one of those things that gets you thinking but at this time I have nothing to add to your results.

I have made a decision to go with a FMIC and water/meth injection from your findings.
This was based on future summertime temps and the heat soak that will go with it.

 

[turboglenn]

Looking at the setups of guys who are using pre-IC injection it seems that not a lot is needed pre-IC. An M7 at this location may be a bit much. During some product R&D, Aquamist found that only a 70cc/min nozzle pre-IC not only completely prevented heat soak but actually kept the IC cool to the touch during back to back dyno pulls. A member on this forum has had excellent results running an M3 pre-IC and I believe an M5 pre-TB.

However, I have to admit that the guys who are using pre-IC injection are typically running SMIC's. So for you the benefits probably won't be as profound. I plan on running an M2 upstream of my Hahn SMIC and an M5 pre-TB.

Basically, I'm interested to see if pre-IC injection can actually get intake temps below ambient?!

Hmm.. that's good to know, maybe i'll start with my M5 (smallest i have) and see what teh AFR's are at and then just add meth to get back to my previous tune (which was very nice and dead on all through the RPM band) Then i'll log it all 3 ways. I can understand why some don't chime in, i can understand just observing for the read and lurk myself alot of times.



below ambient= exactly what i'm looking for deep down with this whole thing.. If i could see temps just udner outside temps durring mid summer i know i would pick up a good bit of power, but i'm not sure on how much since the base air quality is being changed at the same time due to the evaporation of 2 different liquids into it once the meth comes on. Summer should yield the most conclusive data as far as "what cools best"

I love testing things and trying stuff other people don't just so i know fist hand what it does. I just wish i could get the type of business my way that our in town import shops that don't do any "real tuning" gets. Then i could acutally just do this for a living

I'm in the works with a guy trying to buy an AWD dyno...finacially it's aproved, now were looking for a building, but most of it's on his side of things, i'm just supposed to operate it and tune all the cars. We're going to be pimping the new proEFI soon, i may have to put one on my car over the haltech to help sales so people can see it in action.

 

[2gGSX]

Have you tried 100% water yet? Take a look at the math I posted on the first page--if you want to pull out more temperature, you have to spray a LOT of water. A WHOLE LOT, like your M10 M7 M5 combined lot. At this point you're probably going to think: "It sounds like you're telling me to hydrolock my motor". To be honest, I'm not sure what would happen.

Also, you could wire up a window switch for the smaller post-turbo nozzle to kick on at say above 3500 RPM and 50% throttle in order to try to preempt the spike in temperatures from the turbo kicking in. Obviously the RPM and TPS is going to be set based on when you spool and what you feel like, but it's just an idea.

 

[gsxtasy]

I'm in the works with a guy trying to buy an AWD dyno...finacially it's aproved, now were looking for a building, but most of it's on his side of things, i'm just supposed to operate it and tune all the cars. We're going to be pimping the new proEFI soon, i may have to put one on my car over the haltech to help sales so people can see it in action.

I like the sound of this Glenn! I must say you are far more patient than i would be, switching all this stuff back and forth would drive me crazy! Good luck with the rest of your tests, can't wait til we actually get together and check each others cars out.

 

[dsm-onster]

Water actually has a higher value for thermal conductivity than methanol. That is a moot point however because the specific heat capacity for either pale in comparison to the energy absorbed by their vaporization.

For any computer nerds out there, this is the same concept as using phase-shift cooling versus standard air (or even water) cooling.

Yes water as a higher thermal conductivity and water has a higer specific heat capacity . But it is not true that water absorbs more heat in the intake tract. I've seen first hand the opposite.

Just because it can does not mean that it does.

Specific heat and thermal conductivity do not take into accont surface tension. Meth surface tension is so rediculouly weak compared to water that the surface area of an injected mist is at least 10 times larger. Water, though the best at thermal cooling, can't absorb a thing if it's not in contact with a hot surface. Water cannot be misted but so fine with the pump pressures we used in water injection. The meth spray allows fr FR more OPPORTUNITY to absorb heat. Water in a beaker and meth in a beaker produce different cooling rates than a mist of each.

More proof? Stick you hand in a glass of water then a glass of meth, yea water does more cooling of your skin. But spill the same amounts of both on your arm and instantly you feel the weaker surface tension allowing meth to bring yor skin temperature down. Meth is "wetter". Even gasoline spilled on your skin takes more heat away per unit time than water spilled on your skin. Gas has terrible thermal absorbtion properties

Turboglenn, thank you for posting all of this. I know you enjoy this, but to post your results and history is so good to see and really benefits everyone. Thanx.

I've kicked around the side benefit of pre-turbo injection which is quicker boost threshold. Since the turbine is constant, the the exhaust energy extracted is about the same. So for a raise in boost or a quicker spool definately proves pre-turbo injection actually alters the compressor map. Based on your and other results, it's the same as instantly coupling a wheel with a larger inducer (more flow), more blades (quicker build in boost), and a larger exducer (cooler charge air) when the pre-turbo injection is active. Another benefit is that a compressor can be used that will not surge. But when the injection is active, the higher flow is there of a larger wheel that would otherwise demonstrate a surge issue. Pretty much like MWE technology. Holset for years has done this:

1. Small or average turbines for the flow demand
2. Purposefully very large exducer compressors for higher boost efficiency with "extend back technology"
3. Compressors with many primary blades to increase boost threshold for the amount of exhaust gas energy extracted by the turbine wheel
4. A larger inducer to make up for the high number of blades that would otherwise reduce flow.
5. MWE

Oh, and concerning blade erosion, it could all be a conspiracy . I doubt it's very quick, either. But, I'm mulling over nebulizer techology (yea, nebulizer like your grammy has), yet on a large enough scale to feed into a compressor inlet and see results.

I'll go look at your logs now .

 

[turboglenn]

I'd love to see the Nebulizer concept you'r thinking about in action! I can definately agree that pure meth seems to be the best "cooler" of the 2. Today has started the first run of pure water and it's dissapointing to say the least when compared to meth or even a 50/50 mix. I'm using less and still seeing no signs of detonation, but charge air temps are not coming down very much at all compared to the meth usage.

I think i'm going to try and get a H1C or 20G (whatever i find cheaper honestly) and reconduct the pre-turbo injection tests on a full system with FMIC and all. (i can never get enough testing done )

One thing i have noticed is that normally at 25psi or so i can hear the 57trim start to surge a little, but with the pre-impeller injection i haven't heard or felt a surge once!!!!

We are going to be trying this same test on a local car owned by a forum member(drdouglas), it's running a small 16g, but the car is very quick. As we all know the s16g isn't going to hold a lot of boost till redline, and that's what i am hoping to change by injecting pre-turbo on his car. He's up to it, knows the "possible consequinces" and is ready to go. He is ordering a smaller M2 nozzle for pre-turbo injection on that size turbo,so as soon as the nozzle gets here we will start some new tests.

I'm going to have to agree with your thoughts that tip errosion might be a conspiracy, although it may happen i'm thinking that it's something that's not going to surface for at least 25k miles. THe other thread posted as a link in the first page of this one had a guy that ran his WRX for 70k miles and could only see errodsion using a magnifying glass. But admitted that he did numerous 1/4 mile runs with no air cleaner and thought the errosion might have came from all the dust/dirt at the shut down lane on the track. I pulled my system apart last night to look at the impeller and there was nothing that caught my except a clean compressor wheel. The water/meth steam cleaning has really shined things up in there and part of what i thought was blade errosion on first glance turned out ot be dirt because it was gone last night (don't get it wrong though, my compressor wheel is chewed up prettty good, but decent life for something with over 85k HARD MILES on it)

 

[RipperXX]

So I have a question since I have been glancing at water injection for a while but never dug into it that seriously.

I figure with my setup even once I rebuild my engine and upgrade the cams & exhaust I will still need water injection to reach my HP goal of a mear 380whp (safely reach it i should say) However I was thinking about mounting it pre intercooler. So it would not be runing though the turbo's compressor but still have some distance to obsorb heat, atomise etc.

Would this be recommended over mounting the injector/nozel at the TB? As I do not plan on going with a large nozel if I do decided to go with WI.

 

[dsm-onster]

RipperXX, you may be interested in this.

Yea, Glenn, considering the end result of a nebulizer-- a nebula or fog, it my lend to using water's better thermal properties post turbo for charge cooling not just slowing the combustion rate down. Imgine water's heat absorbtion properties with the surface area of meth.

Pre-turbo would guarantee no erosion. But knowing that most reliable nebulizers function off of compressed air, designing one on a large scale would afford a loss in flow if using compressed air from the turbo. This would counter at least some of the flow increase the nebulized water would provide in the first place. Perhaps a compressed air resevoir tank could be incorporated. The project is an engineer's delight.

I am very interested in the 16g pre-turbo injection results. Be sure to get couple of good baseline runs showing the airflow at the limit of the compressor map. The compressor map shows .29kg/sec or 38lbs/min at the limit of 155Krpms (at unknown intake temp and atmospheric pressure). I've seen 36 lbs/min at sealevel with the small 16g. I couldn't hold more than 20psi to redline with fp2xs, stock intake mani, evo3 exhaust mani, FMIC, 3" exhaust, and a decent coldair intake. I loved the turbo because it hit very smoothly, but much earlier than the other 16g variants. It pulls very good airflow very early in the rev range because of it's fast spool, but still holds decent 'street boost' to redline. 10% more flow from "wet compression" would put it in the evo3 16g flow range!!! With much earlier boost (earlier spool from a smaller compressor and more pressure ratio per compressor rpm due to pre-turbo injection). Evo3 16g flow and 14b spool speed?

 

[romeen]

So I have a question since I have been glancing at water injection for a while but never dug into it that seriously.

I figure with my setup even once I rebuild my engine and upgrade the cams & exhaust I will still need water injection to reach my HP goal of a mear 380whp (safely reach it i should say) However I was thinking about mounting it pre intercooler. So it would not be runing though the turbo's compressor but still have some distance to obsorb heat, atomise etc.

Would this be recommended over mounting the injector/nozel at the TB? As I do not plan on going with a large nozel if I do decided to go with WI.

Even if you run a nozzle pre-IC (still debateable whether or not good idea) I would still recommend running a second nozzle pre-TB. The benefits of the water seem to be primarily in the combustion chamber. It absorbs a lot of heat when it is vaporized and it slows combustion in effect increasing the octane of the fuel.

 

[RipperXX]

Well I am using a MHI Evo III turbo, and I am faily sure I can get 365ish with my current mods and the ones to come on pump gas. But to get the 380whp again safely, meaning no chance of detonation what so ever. Of corse so long as it water injection does not run out of fluid and or have a pump failure.

 

[dsm-onster]

Using an injection source to cool the air charge alone is different then what water injection is intended when it was first created. As stated and proven earlier. It doesn't do as good of a job as meth. So run meth if you want cool air. If you want higher 'effective octane', run water. As romeen metioned, it's like running race gas all day long for the cost of water. One reason why Glenn is seeing no knock at higher charge temps with water injection is because the water doesn't have time to absorb as much heat but that doesn't matter because it is slowing the combustion rate to race fuel levels. It is doing this by taking energy out of the combustion chamber and nevermind the fact that the oxygen content per unit volume is now lower because of the hotter aircharge. But who cares, you're still running more boost, timing, and a/f than just pumpgas. So there are still excellent gains.

Water injection works, but don't use it to greatly lower your intake charge. A cool aircharge AND a racegas like burn is what I myself want. I don't know exactly what you meant by saying, "As I do not plan on going with a large nozzle if I do decide to go with WI." For your goal, I'd use water injection post intercooler, run a proper sized nozzle for your airflow (large nozzle you or not). It's old and proven. Then look into running a tiny nozzle before the intercooler to see if it drastically decreases your aircharge temps.

Concerning pre-intercooler injection, I suspect the intecooler core itself helps to shear the water particles into smaller droplets. Like a nebulizer, it bounces the particles around slowing any large particles until they break up and allows the finer droplets to pass through. As well, this act of bouncing around in the IC itself would force the water to stay suspended in the aircharge longer to remove more heat and break down to smaller droplets on it's own. Logical guessing would lead one to conclude that it would take very little water injected at this point to do alot of cooling.

 

[romeen]

Since the topic of the surface tension of water has come up I am very curious about possibly using acetone in the mix. It has a higher octane/autoignition temp than methanol, is extremely clean burning and I think it may decrease the surface tension of the water (it supposedly does with gasoline so maybe the same holds true with H2O). I think most of us have gotten acetone on our skin and are aware of how it instantly begins evaporating and makes the skin feel cold. Just not sure how much dilution would be required to avoid causing damage to the injection system (swelling of seals, corrosion).

If it does decrease the surface tension of water then potentially a small amount could go a long way and end up being much cheaper than using methanol.

Anyones thoughts? Matt?

 

[turboglenn]

RipperXX i wouldn't advise it. The only reason i'm considering it is A.) My intercooler doesn't have any place for the fluid to "puddle" because it's ahped like a triangle with the outlet being along the very bottom (lowest) edge there is on it. And B.) I tend to break parts in the name of testing all year round anyway, so what's this going to change? Actually the DSM is very reliable, i tend to push my own stuff till it breaks so i know what i can or cannot do to a customers car and consider it "safe".

RipperXX, you may be interested in this.

Yea, Glenn, considering the end result of a nebulizer-- a nebula or fog, it my lend to using water's better thermal properties post turbo for charge cooling not just slowing the combustion rate down. Imgine water's heat absorbtion properties with the surface area of meth.

Wouldn't that be nice!!!!!! I hope that you keep the desire to try this, and make sure to PM me at minimum if you need any help or just to share results.

Pre-turbo would guarantee no erosion. But knowing that most reliable nebulizers function off of compressed air, designing one on a large scale would afford a loss in flow if using compressed air from the turbo. This would counter at least some of the flow increase the nebulized water would provide in the first place. Perhaps a compressed air resevoir tank could be incorporated. The project is an engineer's delight.

I am very interested in the 16g pre-turbo injection results. Be sure to get couple of good baseline runs showing the airflow at the limit of the compressor map. The compressor map shows .29kg/sec or 38lbs/min at the limit of 155Krpms (at unknown intake temp and atmospheric pressure). I've seen 36 lbs/min at sealevel with the small 16g. I couldn't hold more than 20psi to redline with fp2xs, stock intake mani, evo3 exhaust mani, FMIC, 3" exhaust, and a decent coldair intake. I loved the turbo because it hit very smoothly, but much earlier than the other 16g variants. It pulls very good airflow very early in the rev range because of it's fast spool, but still holds decent 'street boost' to redline. 10% more flow from "wet compression" would put it in the evo3 16g flow range!!! With much earlier boost (earlier spool from a smaller compressor and more pressure ratio per compressor rpm due to pre-turbo injection). Evo3 16g flow and 14b spool speed?

I'm actually more interested in this 16g trial than i am my own large turbo experiments. If this does what it shoudl in theory i may even change to a 16g (but i doubt it...20g is the right flavor for me IMO) BUT, if like you said, we can get EVO type flow rates and have the spool of a small 16g we would be onto something great, especially on the street where instant hitting power that holds through the RPM band reigns suppreme in most cases.

We've got a TON of logs of this car on it's TB injected meth already. We are simply going to add some pre-turbo spray on top of this tune. I wish teh car had independant IAT sensors, but due to still running a factory MAF sensor , we wont' get that data, but raw airflow should be eveident enough for definitive results! It would be great to show up at the "outlaws" with a car that seems to be a stout small turbo ride and have it smoke some larger compressor cars (namely i'd like to put it against' some local EVO's that think they are hot shit ) Some of shich have handed me my ass because while i was waiting on "big bertha" to spool, they were already making power, putting it to the ground and going bye-bye. That's why i love going from a 45 or 60mph roll

 

[dsm-onster]

Since the topic of the surface tension of water has come up I am very curious about possibly using acetone in the mix. It has a higher octane/autoignition temp than methanol, is extremely clean burning and I think it may decrease the surface tension of the water (it supposedly does with gasoline so maybe the same holds true with H2O). I think most of us have gotten acetone on our skin and are aware of how it instantly begins evaporating and makes the skin feel cold. Just not sure how much dilution would be required to avoid causing damage to the injection system (swelling of seals, corrosion).

If it does decrease the surface tension of water then potentially a small amount could go a long way and end up being much cheaper than using methanol.

Anyones thoughts? Matt?

I'm researchig this now... Actually, I started researching this after reading that pre-turbo injection thread posted here when you posted it up a while back in the evo3 16g record thread .

Surfactants are what they are called that breakdown the surface tension of water. Common household dish soap does an excellent job of this, making water actually wetter. That's why we use it to wash our dishes. It give the water molecules more chance to breakdown the grease or food particles. Yea, acetone does a good job with gasoline. But, will it do a good job with water? It depends on the placemet of the atoms in the molecule. And will the bonds that hold a molecule of acetone to h2o break when misted and will the water molecule rebind with another quickly? I don't know. I have my water injection kit out of the car now. I'm going to test the spray pattern with and without acetone. I'm worried that it will cause pump failure though. So I'm trying to find any info on how much is too much for the guts of my ShurFlo pump. It's done fine with wiperfluid (meth mix) so far for, what, 4 years. Supposedly very little acetone is needed.

I wonder if water wetter mixed with water would provide positive results. It's patent specifically steers toward breaking apart the surface tension bonds of water.

 

[RipperXX]

Ok since it looks like most of you have done a LOT of research where as I have only glanced at WI and honestly do not have the time to do any research being deployed and working 12hr shifts. I am going to ask you guys what YOU think would work best for me then. And with any luck I will get some helpfull info. Note I typically do my own research and don't like going this route but again I don't really have the time to.

I am estimating I can reach 365ish once I rebuild my engine and do a few upgrades. My goal is as close to 400whp as I can come using the MHI Evo III turbo while keeping it unquestionably safe. (I would be content with 380)

#1 does this sound like a reasonable safe goal?

#2 How would you recomend going about it?


I must also point out I am not trying to go extream as some of you, so keep in mind I am thinking of a somewhat normal or mild WI setup.


Thanks in advance.

 

[dsm-onster]

A decent fmic and a water injection point at the tb elbow did just fine with my small 16g and big 60-1. It's simple and was safe. Your goal sounds very reasonable with a simple one nozzle, boost activated kit. No need for progressive control. Less parts, more reliable. Don't leave your setup and busy schedule subject to Murphy. Just have it cut on at a boost that doesn't cause bogging and go for the gold.

Talk to your kit vendor for the proper nozzle size. Generally, if you plan on using water alone, look at 15%-20% of your total fuel flow. So you'll have to guestimate your fuel consumption at your hp goal. If you plan on using a water/meth mix, double or tripple that water flow.

 

[turboglenn]

dsm-onster is correct, one nozzle post IC and pre TB will do jsut fine.

Update on the tests: WAter was great for anti detoantion but lackjed hard comapred to 50/50 and pure meth on cooling ability in the charge air pipes.

Currently i'm in teh process of building new IC pipes that are a lot straighter and will have provisions all over for further meth testing. It will have one immediately post turbo, one immediately pre-intercooler, keeping the pre-turbo one there, and adding 2 places post intercooler before teh TB to test all teh different possibilities

Updates to come tonight after i get my new AEM wideband installed

 

[turboglenn]

The intercooler is back on along with the new AEM UEGO. I gotta say, this unit is quite nice for it's size, and compared to reading it agains't my other wideband it is pretty much spot on through out it's range which is more limited than the other. I mounted it in the dash covering teh oil pressure and factory boost gauges. It looks quite nice, lucky for me as it was my only option for a place to put a gauge.

Having the IC back on is great. Things are back to being consistant, which is what the no FMIC + meth test shown to be lacking in. It no longer sounds like a jet plain, so you will only get to hear a small clip of the car in it's previous state, but look forward to some more tests and some more video. The local 1/8 mile opened tonight, and although i hate going to 1/8 miles (kiddy tracks as i call em) I think i might go to work on my 60' times after ordering some new slicks here soon. ( my next mod hopefully)

More logs and info to come, stay tuned as the "small 16g + pre-turbo meth test" is coming next and i bet proves to be a bit more impressive and entertaining than this has been